Stick techniques

[ronhughen]

Do you really take yourself so seriously?

I'm not sure what you mean by "so seriously". Please explain.

You poor thing.

I guess I need to know more about you to really decide whether I should feel poor or not . . .

And to answer your question, chief....no....the point of being a student isn't to clone your teacher.

Chief, eh? I bet you call everybody "Chief" (I call everybody "baby").

Well, I did not say I was a clone of Ralph shihan, but I do believe that a sincere student will, at least in the begining, try to very closely immulate his/her teacher . . . . Our attitues are similar because one is attracted to a teacher that is someone they want to be like . . . so, you have actually compemented me saying that I have become similar enough to him that you think I am his clone . . . thank you!

And, getting back to the subject of sticks . . . when I was a youngin' I was particularly impressed with the fantastic skill and control of the rokushakubo of a Mr. Ralph Severe. If you have not seen him with one of those you will not appreciate what I am saying, and will pop up with comments like "oh look Ralph has a mini-me" . . . those that have seen him with a long bo know what I mean (he has tapes . . . so anybody has the ability to see what I mean). So, inspired, I trained with all the different sticks for years, learning each more and more . . . later coming to realize that the skills one learns with basic stick training are the same skill one needs for more advanced work with things like bladed weapons (and I nelieve that a studnet should not even pick up a sword without a lot of hanbo, jo and rokushakubo training and skill). Even use of other things like flexible weapons is based on the foot and body work one developes in the early rokushakubo forms. When I first started playing with a sword, it felt familiar, natural.

 

[ronhughen]

Sure! I just recieved my copy of Trankada, the Ties That Bind, by Senior Master Dan Anderson, which covers a multitude of Modern Arnis stick locking and trapping techniques, as well as a plethora of emptyhand locking techniques. On first glance, looks like a great book! It's not Ninjutsu, but it's stickwork.

Speaking of books . . . anybody ever read a book called "The Unfettered MInd" by Takuan Soho? A buddy of mine just sent it to me . . . he must think its good . . . I'm about to open it . . . its subtitled . . . "Writings of the Zen Master to the Sword Master".

 

[r.severe]

A lot of students in stick arts use wood or ratan..
I personally like lexan or delrin.
They just last forever... well it would seem.

The major problem with stick sparring is the injuries to the shoulders...
Everything else can be covered really easy.
I use Fist helmets with a steel cage for a face guard, baseball shin and knee cap protectors, heavy lacrose gloves, and elbow pads... at times students wear forarm pads too.
This ads to a lot of protection but not so much that it stps flow or a good feeling of the stick...
This is a true stick being used.. not a padded one.. for the hobbyist Budoka !
Be careful...

How do you use protection during sparring with sticks.?

ralph severe, kamiyama

 

[Don Roley]

MOD NOTE-

Guys.. This is getting totally silly.. Take the JUVENILE nonsense off line.. Topic is Ninjitsu Stick Techniques.. Keep it There~!!

~Tess
-MT S. MOD-

Well, it did not take long for people to start ignoring that directive.

 

[ronhughen]

Well, it did not take long for people to start ignoring that directive.

It does seem like we are going back to talking about sticks . . . c'mon . . . say something about sticks . . .

 

[Don Roley]

I seem to not be the only person who dislikes these little off-topic jabs and promotion in the middle of other topics.

But here is something that many Bujinkan members will find informative and perhaps alarming.

Years ago, I got a really, really nice rokushakubo. I am talking drool city. I brought it in to the dojo I was going to and played with it before class. The teacher saw it and talked to me, noting my interest in bojutsu. So he started teaching me bojutsu from the beggining.

I did a very, very basic thing that I had learned and he stopped me and corrected me. I stammered and said that the dojo I went to in America taught me the incorrect way and I had never heard any complaint from anyone else. He chuckled and said that he originally learned bojutsu from a teacher who is no longer in the Bujinkan and who used to do a lot of seminars in America. But one day when he performed the technique in front of the boss, he was corrected by him. I have tried the new way, it makes a lot more sense than the way I used to do it.

That was just the beggining of a lot of eye opening experiences. I dare say that a lot of what people think they know about the Bujinkan way of using a stick is not the same as things are done in Japan. If any Bujinkan member cares to mention it to me while they visit here in Japan, I will point it out and point them in the direction of the teacher who pointed out this very, very important and basic point. There are many other things they should learn if they are serious about getting the best information they can on the subject of bojutsu, but the type of stuff does not lend itself well to the written word and I can't (won't) post pictures.

 

[KenpoTess]

Well, it did not take long for people to start ignoring that directive.

True enough.. though I'm seeing some Stick talk
Good thing too.. cuz I am heading to a Blues Fest today and don't want to have to 'worry bout you guys' so Be good ~!

~Me

 

[ronhughen]

Years ago, I got a really, really nice rokushakubo. I am talking drool city.

I've beenmaking my own sticks for years . . . there's just something more . . . persoanla about a weapon you make youreslf. If I don't make it completely I usually do something that makes it persaonal and distinctive.

Well, I jsut got the power tools to make "drool city" sticks . . . I'm interested in making them and selling them. But until now I've never been convinced I could make them in a short enough time to sell them for a price that is worth my while . . . I'd be surprised if anybody would spend $150 - $200 for a rokushakubo, no matter how nice it was. But now I have the tools to make the process MUCH less labor intensive ( I've actually bought the tools because I am fixing up my 100 year old victorian house myself so THAAT justifies the tools), so I think I can make a really, really nice stick for fifty bucks, possibly less . . . . I actually like octagons (though I can alos make round, even oval) and with my new planer . . . I should be able to mill one to a near finishable smoothness in about fiftee minutes . . . then I soak in in linseed oil for about two weeks . . . let it dry for another two weeks, buff with steel wool . . . it works for me!

Some like to use tung oil . . . I never really have . . . anybody know what tung oil is?

Anybody else make theirr own weapons?

 

[Don Roley]

It isn't the tools or the craftmanship that makes a good rokushakubo "drool city." It is the right wood that has been raised in the correct manner. Take a tough wood that has been raised in a cold climate so that it grows slow and densely. You can pick up mine and just feel the strength of the thing. It is so dense and tough I have sometimes dented other sticks in simple drills without a scratch on mine.

But of course, there is only so much you can do with a good tool like the stick if you don't know the correct manner of use. And a lot of what I have seen being spread overseas is not what I saw in my weekly classes on the rokushakubo.

 

[ronhughen]

. . . I like to make my own . . . "nice sticks" . . . my bashers are just what I can pick up cheap usually . . . I break a lot of sticks . . .

 

[ronhughen]

It is the right wood that has been raised in the correct manner.

Thank you for the input. I am aware of all that. I'm not actually a hobbyist at budo stick making.

 

[Don Roley]

Since we are talking abotu bojutsu, I thought I would pass along my opinions on a tape on bojutsu from Moti Navi.

I got this tape shortly after I started learning bojutsu from a Japanese instructor. I was excited and wanted every supplementary source I could get to help me absorb the information I was being shown every week. I thought that the experience of a tenth dan and the "innovations" he promised would give me something to build on.

I was very disapointed.

I should have realized that "innovations" really are possible when you have actual combat experience with a weapon. And today the chances of getting into a combat with a two meter long stick are rather rare.

(I have seen people try to claim that they have had life or death struggles with swords, shuriken, etc- but when asked for proof they all refuse and everyone laughs at them.)

Sparring is not actual combat experience. So where would Navi have gotten experience worthy of making the small changes as part of his "innovations?" Actually, his biggest deliberate change seems to be just stringing a few kata together so that you go immediatly into one after you finish another. I am sure you can do that on your own and do not need to spend money on this tape to get the secret.

But the most distressing thing was that I was being shown things every week by a Japanese teacher on how to use the bo at the time. He was very insistent that I do not have any bad habits or do anything wrong from the beggining. So imagine my shock/dispair/ annoyance when I saw Moti Navi doing the same things that my Japanese teacher was telling me not to do because they were wrong and developed bad habits.

I have since thought about the matter and wonder how Moti Navi learned bojutsu. He most definatly did not learn it from a Japanese teacher like I did. If we went over three bo kata a night it was a busy night. The teacher stood over us and corrected what we did, not letting anything by that did not meet his standards. We would go over stuff a few weeks later so he could check our progress and catch any mistakes before they became bad habits. This only happened when there were only a few students in the room and he could help us all. In other words, it was a slow, deliberate process and someone who merely visited Japan for a few weeks could only get a few kata, not the entire set in the Kukishin style.

Moti Navi, like most, probably learned from seminars, videos of those seminars or from teachers that learned at seminars and from video. There are things you can learn from sources like that, but you do not get the technical points that make the traditional kata so fantastic. You do not get the hands- on corrections that eliminate the small habits I saw in the tape.

In short, considering the limited amount of knowledge most Bujinkan teachers have about the traditional katas, I suppose that many people would not realize the problems with this tape. But if you want to learn the art fully, you should seek out a competent instructor while in Japan and ask them to show you what they can. If they can only show a handfull of kata 100 percent correctly, but happy with that until you can get back again. Don't feel you have to learn all the kata from videos, etc. This art does take a while to learn, it is worth learning correctly. There are a few students of the teacher I learned from who have moved back to their countries. I am sure they are spreading the vcorrect information slowly. You just have to find the guys who lived in Japan and know the subject or come here yourself and learn it.

 

[r.severe]

I heard someone say this.......
"And today the chances of getting into a combat with a two meter long stick are rather rare."

I can speak for my experience...
I have been in about 7 fights with a long staff.. 5 to 7 feet long.. and well into 100 sparring matches...
I know the last fight I got into was with tobak toyok.. in 1997 with a weapon.. if asked when the last time I went to the post with a weapons fight.. that's what I would say...

Can't speak for anyone else.. not even the soke.

ralph severe, kamiyama

 

[Jay Bell]

I'll take the bait..

Ralph, are you claiming that you have been in street fights with sticks? And if so, would there be some sort of documentation of some sort....maybe a police report of some kind?

 

[[email protected]]

Hello Everyone,

It seems we are getting back on course!!

I cannot speak for Shihan Ralph, but I have used a 3ft, 4ft, and Kali sticks in several altercations. There are no records of this, as I didn't stick around to fill out any police reports......The 4 ft incident was a reminder in class to watch out for visitors with an agenda!!

Mr. Roley,

It is great to have correction on the various kata from a qualified source!! Do you or the Japanese Shihan spar with any of the kata?

Steve Lefebvre, Airyu

www.Bujinkandojo.net

 

[ronhughen]

Mr. Roley



I think that was a very thoughtful post and critique of the Moti Nativ tape. I agree with some of what you said about the quality of the information on the tape, but I make a strong effort in my life to take from everything what is useful, discard that which is not. Was there nothing you found you could learn from the tape?



I think it is very cool that you have the opportunity to learn from so many instructors in Japan that you feel are very good. If I have the chance I will get to Japan, but will most certainly not live there. If you don’t mind, I do have some questions about some of your comments.



“And today the chances of getting into a combat with a two meter long stick are rather rare.”



Well, I actually almost always have either a rokushakubo or jo with me when I walk my dogs at the park or on the street and when I hike in the mountains (I also almost always have a pistol and often a tanto). Would you not agree that if I happen to get in a fight and have my bo with me I will probably use it? (I carry both the rokushakubo and the jo in my car, and practice taking them out quickly so I can do it if I have to . . . I also keep a pistol and a couple of good blades in the car that are all at easy reach while I am driving and I practice getting them out from their storage places while sitting in the driver’s seat). I also think that just having something like a six-foot stick (and two dogs) with me are visible clues to somebody not to mess with me, so I am probably avoiding confrontations by having these. Also, have you considered that things you do with a six-foot stick would apply to other things you may pick-up in the heat of battle . . . a broom, a shovel, things like that (Jackie Chan in his movies shows this sort of thing all the time)?



I don’t think it is likely that I will get into a fight with a sword unless someone breaks into my house, and I run out of ammo in my pistol(s) and shotgun . . . but I suppose there is a possibility I would have to pick up the sword and use it . . . Shuriken training seems very practical since they are easy to carry, and the skills one develops by such training also applies to other throwing things, like rocks, etc. Musashi said “the true value of sword fencing cannot be understood within the confines of sword fencing”. Don’t you agree that the training we are engaged in extends beyond the specific use of a two-meter stick, sword, or shuriken?



“(I have seen people try to claim that they have had life or death struggles with swords, shuriken, etc- but when asked for proof they all refuse and everyone laughs at them.)” . . . “But if you want to learn the art fully, you should seek out a competent instructor while in Japan and ask them to show you what they can.”





Personally, the only times I have had the possibility of being in a streetfight I have managed to walk away from it without actually fighting. Ralph shihan claims to have combat experience . . . and about his sue of rokushakubo Hatsumi sensei stated publicly that Ralph “is a genius and a master technician”, that he does things as if he were in combat. If you have not seen him (even on tape) working with a rokushakubo can you really apply to him and defend a statement like “considering the limited amount of knowledge most Bujinkan teachers have about the traditional katas, I suppose that many people would not realize the problems with this tape”? Can you give us some specifics about who you are talking about as having “limited knowledge”? Or, are you saying that simply because someone is NOT Japanese they cannot KNOW these things? From what I’ve been reading there is an aversion in Japan to focusing on combat applications of these techniques favoring the “art” side more. My question would be “how can one know what is “exactly right” if not putting it to the test of combat? Or near combat, like sparring?” What is it about being Japanese that makes it more possible to know stuff. Don’t the forms themselves act as tools for the student practicing it to learn what’s right? I feel I have learned, or “become enlightened” about some of what is right by hitting things with the stick . . . when you contact an object like a maki wara you feel in your body when its right or wrong. Do you guys hit things with sticks in Japan, and if you do don’t you agree you can feel the difference between right and wrong? Don’t you agree that the main factor as to whether someone learns the right way or not is a function of how hard the individual works on it? Everything that is known HAD to be discovered by someone prior to the enlightened person passing it on to a student as a teacher. Does this not indicate that we can learn in ways other than having a Japanese teacher tell us these things?



“Sparring is not actual combat experience.”



True, because combat is trying to kill the other guy before he kills you, in sparring we try not to kill each other . . . so sparring has some elements of combat, more than merely practicing forms, with much less chance of someone getting dead. I’m thinking that sparring is still very valuable practice for combat, if you are practicing these skills for the possibility that you will have the need to use them to save your life, does it not make sense to to things in practice that come as close to reality as possible?



“I have since thought about the matter and wonder how Moti Navi learned bojutsu. He most definatly did not learn it from a Japanese teacher like I did.”



So, if a person were to learn “it” from a non-japanese teacher, or on their own through diligent practice and research, and learn it “correctly”, would you say that that knowledge is not valid because it was not learned from a Japanese teacher? That is sort of the impression I am getting from what you are saying.



In an earlier post I asked you about who you are, because I simply don’t know, but I read your posts and you seem to talk as if you know a lot. You also imply others do not know something or as much as you because they don’t train in Japan, yet I’m not sure if you have any direct knowledge or familiarity of those you are implying are so lacking. I would like to know more about you so I can decide whether I can believe what you are saying, whether you actually know enough about what you are talking about to be saying these things (such as saying “ . . . instructors having limited knowledge”). I personally try to learn from everything, and everyone, but I feel it is important to know where those I am learning from are coming from, you understand that, don’t you?



You also implied that I don’t make good sticks without any knowledge about my sticks. I am curious what you base such an attitude on (most of the Japanese teaching I am familiar with promote that students should be humble, and not bragging).



Thank you.

 

[Kreth]

From what I’ve been reading there is an aversion in Japan to focusing on combat applications of these techniques favoring the “art” side more.

Actually, I think it's more a case of the Japanese instructors not wanting to teach some techniques to people they don't know personally. You can see quite a difference in Hatsumi Sensei's movement at a Tai Kai, for example, and in a class at Honbu. I've seen a similar difference between public and private classes with the Shihan in Japan. I think the Japanese are very careful about what they teach, and whom they teach it to.

Jeff

 

[ronhughen]

I'll take the bait..

Ralph, are you claiming that you have been in street fights with sticks? And if so, would there be some sort of documentation of some sort....maybe a police report of some kind?

To my knowlege he does not have a police record, but I did get to witness him deal with a guy that came into the school talking a bunch of poop, and being exgtreemly challenging . . . Ralph shihan tried to ignore the guy, but he was persistent . . . after the guy signed all the appropriate papers, they went at each other with nunchaku. Poor guy!

-Mini

 

[ronhughen]

Actually, I think it's more a case of the Japanese instructors not wanting to teach some techniques to people they don't know personally. You can see quite a difference in Hatsumi Sensei's movement at a Tai Kai, for example, and in a class at Honbu. I've seen a similar difference between public and private classes with the Shihan in Japan. I think the Japanese are very careful about what they teach, and whom they teach it to.

Jeff

Yes, this makes sense, I know I am selective about who, where and when I show stuff to.

So, can an insider tell me anything about the nature of combat oriented training in Japan (of course, without divulding any secrets we cannot say in public :supcool: )

 

[Kreth]

Yes, this makes sense, I know I am selective about who, where and when I show stuff to.

So, can an insider tell me anything about the nature of combat oriented training in Japan (of course, without divulding any secrets we cannot say in public :supcool: )

Well, I wouldn't call myself an "insider." I've seen this comment about "no sparring in Japan" floating around for a while, and I wanted to point out that I have seen a definite difference in the way the Shihan train with you once they get to know you. I'm sure this is much more the case for Don or one of the other Japan residents.

And yes, I agree. My classes are by invitation only. I don't run a formal dojo. This serves two purposes: I don't have to deal with the immature college wannabe badboys running around this town, and I have a good idea of who I'm training with and how far we can take it.

Jeff