Stephen K. Hayes

[Enson]

The mistake is yours. At the time of that post, several other of Sensei's former students had been mentioned, some of whom no longer train with him at all.

Jeff

k then jeff sorry for the misunderstanding of your imformative post. if you don't want to realize you messed up by trashing a living legend i'll take the fall.
peace

 

[gmunoz]

You'll have to point out where I claimed Hayes never trained with Hatsumi Sensei. I'll give you a hint, I never did. I said (and I'll try to use little words for you), that he trained with Sensei for a while, and now rarely does. In fact, I can think of at least a dozen people who by now have more "dirt time" training in Japan than Hayes. I'm sure any of the Japan residents can verify that his visits to Japan these days are little more than photo ops at Honbu Dojo and Togakushi. As such, I don't see anything wrong with Hatsumi Sensei telling Bujinkan students not to train with him. I've trained with Hayes, and he is very good at what he does, but it is not Bujinkan, it is his interpretation thereof.

Jeff

Jeff,

Are you, in fact, advocating that that is what Hayes is doing? Simply gathering photo ops to promote his martial art? You mentioned you're sure that Japan residents can verify. I'd be interested to hear of your interactions with them.

 

[Don Roley]

You'll have to point out where I claimed Hayes never trained with Hatsumi Sensei. I'll give you a hint, I never did. I said (and I'll try to use little words for you), that he trained with Sensei for a while, and now rarely does. In fact, I can think of at least a dozen people who by now have more "dirt time" training in Japan than Hayes. I'm sure any of the Japan residents can verify that his visits to Japan these days are little more than photo ops at Honbu Dojo and Togakushi.

Nothing I have seen, heard or experienced in Japan contridicts anything that Jeff (Kreth) has said in this thread.

I think that there may be a problem in understanding how Japanese handle things like this. The following is a quote from a piece by Ellis Amdur on page 172 or Koryu Bujutsu- Calssical Warrior Traditions of Japan.

Nishioka Tsuneo, master instructor of Shinto Muso-jojutsu said to me in a conversation that for him, the modern day equivelent of hamon (expulsion form a ryu) is to ignore a student who offends him. They are welcome to practice in his dojo, but he will either completely ignore them, or with utter disspasionate indeference "praise" them, saying "fine, that's very good. Carry on."

 

[Phipps]

Ralph,
I belive that you misunderstand me. I am not saying that they lost the feeling, I am saying that they don't have the current feeling. Let me put it this way, if you are training a student at a ninth kyu level and they have a good understanding of this enough that you are willing to have them demonstrate it to new students. If they are absent for a few months but can still do 9th kyu techniques would you have them demonstrate 5th kyu techniques. It is not saying that their techniques are flawed or invalid it's just saying that they are not current with the feeling. This is an extreme example because Stephen K. Hayes' techniques are far beyond this. I am not discounting anything any of these individuals are doing, or trying to show them disrespect it's just not the same as what Hatsumi Sensei is doing right now. As effective as it may be you can't claim to be teaching the same thing if you are not current with teachings as they are now.

Before I get people fired up at me no disrespect is meant just my opinion. Feel free to disagree.

Anton Phipps

 

[Rob Broad]

Man o man! I wanna know how many of you are married to each other because you all squablle like a couple that has been married for too long.

 

[r.severe]

Ralph,
I belive that you misunderstand me.
**ky, maybe so.. Anton.. this is a forum where people do make mistakes.*****

I am not saying that they lost the feeling, I am saying that they don't have the current feeling.
**ky, feeling from then and from now… just ponder this.. Hatsumi sensei has NOT had any of Takamatsu ‘feeling’ for a few years too.. say over 20..LOL.. so I would assume you are referring to Hatsumi sensei by what you are saying as well.. right or wrong?
I feel that many misunderstand Hatsumi sensei motion.. it is his.. as well as his ‘feeling’. You cannot have the same as he has or anyone else has. This seems to be a foolish as well as misunderstand many have in martial skills. It is not the way of course to express yourself by expressing other people… that’s coping a person.. and I personally don’t feel that is the right way to walk as a human being or as a martial person. With that I don’t feel Hatsumi sensei wants or need others to clone him or his movement. Do you think so?
I would be very impressed to see him hit half as hard as I do or even move as fast as I can with ‘real time’ techniques being applied. This would be a trip.. freaky..
I feel someone has sold you some idea you need to or have to be like someone else and that’s silly.. and for that matter a waste of who you are or what you are here for Anton.**************

Now for that reason alone I would like to say I rather stand on my own two feet and be me..
Second I have fighting experience...
Third.. moving like someone in aikido.. but calling it ninpo bugei is ok by me.. and it looks beautiful too..
Fighting doesn't look like than.. and I don't believe it ever will..

ralph severe, kamiyama

 

[Dale Seago]

Dale,
So basically a few individuals who were actively training in the 70's and 80's basically slowed or stopped their regular regular training with Hatsumi, who continued to move forward with his own research, and are missing the more current info? The result being that to promote accuracy folks have a '1 or the other, but not both' situation.

??

That's essentially correct. The old bugei of Japan typically had three major levels of training: Shoden, Chuden, and Okuden (or comparable terminology, it varied somewhat among different ryu) or, if you prefer, lower, middle, and advanced levels. In the way Hatsumi sensei has been teaching over the years he has not tried to follow precisely the old method of teaching shoden level portions of a curriculum first, then chuden, then okuden in a formal progression: rather, he has spent years teaching material in a "shoden-level conceptual fashion", then the same with chuden, and now okuden as seniors have become more proficient and able to grasp the pertinent aspects.

 

[Don Roley]

The old bugei of Japan typically had three major levels of training: Shoden, Chuden, and Okuden (or comparable terminology, it varied somewhat among different ryu) or, if you prefer, lower, middle, and advanced levels. In the way Hatsumi sensei has been teaching over the years he has not tried to follow precisely the old method of teaching shoden level portions of a curriculum first, then chuden, then okuden in a formal progression: rather, he has spent years teaching material in a "shoden-level conceptual fashion", then the same with chuden, and now okuden as seniors have become more proficient and able to grasp the pertinent aspects.

Hmmm....

Allow me to suggest a possibly different explination.

If you are in the Bujinkan and teaching it, that means that you are a
student of the Bujinkan. Note the heavy, heavy emphisis I am putting on the concept that you have to be a student of the Bujinkan if you are to be a teacher.

The first time anyone sees a technique, they do not do it to perfection. The next time the teacher gets around to it there will probably be some corrections and further insights made. It may happen the second time, and the third, etc.

The thing is, there is very little of what you can call "perfection" in the martial arts. Funakoshi is said to have lamented his lack of knowledge about even a simple punch on his deathbed.

As long as you are alive, there is always something more you can learn. No exceptions. There is always something more to learn.

If you claim to be in the Bujinkan, it stands to reason that there will always be something more that you can learn about the Bujinkan method. To think that you know it all is just egotistical folly. In the Bujinkan, the one person that knows more than anyone else is Hatsumi. If you are a low level person, then you can be excused for not going to Hatsumi because there are other people around that more than you and can help you reach a deeper understanding of the art. But if you look around and say that there is no other person in your country that can teach you something about the Bujinkan, there is always Hatsumi.

Take a look at the way Hatusmi trained with Takamatsu. Very early on he got a certificate from Takamatsu naming him the soke of the Togakure ryu. If he wanted to he could have taken that proof and gone off on his own and never seen Takamatsu again. But he did not. The thing that stopped him from trianing with Takamatsu was Takamatsu's death. Until Takamatsu was dead, hatsumi showed up to find out what he could learn from Takamatsu instead of relying on the nowledge and certificates he already had. Becasue there was still stuff that an experienced person like Takamatsu could teach him! Takamatsu had decades more experience in the art than Hatsumi and that never changed as long as Takamatsu was still training. Hatsumi never could get the same time in trainig in the arts Takamatsu trained him in as long as Takamatsu was alive and training. So he kept coming back for more insightsm corrections and lessons based on Takamatsu's superior amount of time with the art.

(As an aside, I do seek out other sources about combat on my own as a student of combative disciplines. But as long as I consider myself a Bujinkan practicioner it stands to reason that I will put priority on getting better at the Bujinkan. I am going to a training weekend in America soon for another art but will show up to training with the teacher I have chosen in the Bujinkan as often as I can.)

So, if you don't go to Hatsumi for real training you are just going through the motions of being a student. Your ego has controlled you so that you will no longer put yourself in a position to let someone correct your mistakes and show in front of others that you still have something to learn.

If you decide there is some other art better for you then great! I know a few people who have left the Bujinkan because they found teachers near them who appealed to them. Jay Bell is one. He is not a student of the Bujinkan anymore, but he still seeks out the best instruction and correction in Systema that he can.

Again, if you say that you are teaching or studying Bujinkan you have to acknowledge that there is no one better in the Bujinkan than Hatsumi. If you are not getting instruction from another Bujinkan teacher, then your only hope to find someone who can correct and guide you is Hatsumi. So unless you think you know more than Hatsumi, you need to show up and train with him unless you are training with one of his students.

 

[r.severe]

Donny.. Donny shihan... LOL... "So unless you think you know more than Hatsumi, you need to show up and train with him unless you are training with one of his students.:

Can you take the time and tell us if not just me what Hatsumi is really knows other than Japnese history and body movement at 65, 70, 73.. art and dance..? I'm sure he is well read.. but what else?

I hope you are NOT referring to combative martial warrior arts... now now.. you would be telling us he has combative experience.. and this wouldn't be true.. now now Donny shihan.. tell us please..?

He has admitted to not having experience... so.

With no disrespect to the soke... Just because he shows things at stop and go.. action stop and go.. and pulls off a few tricks, writes a few books and makes a few tapes.. doesn't mean anyone should follow him off a cliff.. or in a martial system..

What is it about "him" that keeps you personally so important feeling?

ralph severe, kamiyama

 

[Don Roley]

As always Ralph, it is hard to know if you truely lack the ability to understand or if you are purposefully trying to confuse the issue and cause trouble.

I do not wish to get into another one of your many, many attacks you have launched on these boards.

Suffice to say, if you claim to study or teach what Hatsumi teaches, you owe it to get the best instruction in what he teaches or use another name. If you do not care to improve yourself in what he teaches, you really have no right to try to use his name to increase business.

 

[Kreth]

Nothing I have seen, heard or experienced in Japan contridicts anything that Jeff (Kreth) has said in this thread.

Thanks, Don. Someone else asked about my interactions with people in Japan. Well, I'm not going to drag people into the conversation who don't frequent this forum. In fact, some don't actually frequent any of the ninjutsu forums. Let's just say that I've done a bit of asking around to confirm what I'd heard.

if you don't want to realize you messed up by trashing a living legend i'll take the fall.

Glad to see the PR is still working for you...

Jeff

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Admin Warning

Gentlemen,
As of late there have been some excellent topical posts in this forum, and I would not like to see those efforts wasted by good threads suddenly becoming a locked-thread graveyard.

Please leave the personal issues outside, and treat your fellow posters with respect. You may disagree, however do so politely.

Thank you.
The Management.

 

[Dale Seago]

Hmmm....

Allow me to suggest a possibly different explination.

If you are in the Bujinkan and teaching it, that means that you are a
student of the Bujinkan. Note the heavy, heavy emphisis I am putting on the concept that you have to be a student of the Bujinkan if you are to be a teacher.

Hmmm yourself. I'd have just said an additional explanation. And you're right -- even the most senior shihan in Japan are still very much students of Hatsumi sensei and learning from him, even though they live right there in Japan and are thus exposed to him constantly.

 

[Kreth]

...even the most senior shihan in Japan are still very much students of Hatsumi sensei...

Good point, Dale. The problem seems to be that some people have forgotten this in favor of building their ninja empires...

Jeff

 

[Don Roley]

Good point, Dale. The problem seems to be that some people have forgotten this in favor of building their ninja empires...

Or keeping their ego intact. It is very, very easy to convince yourself and others that you are the best thing for martial arts since Bruce Lee as long as you do not put yourself in a position to be judged and corrected by a true master.

Even when people show up to Japan, some of them never put themselves in a position for those who know more than them to come over and correct them. Having students to take care of is one good way. Japanese rarely will tear down a person in front of their students. Heck, my teacher once had a night of pain staking correction on some very basic stuff when there was only local students. He apologized to us and said he did not want to embarrass us in front of visitors. The guy from England and I looked at each other and laughted before telling him that if he saw a mistake in what we do we wanted him to point it out anytime and anywhere.

On the other hand, on a positive note, I know of a few people that have perfected the "help- I am lost" look to direct at guys like Noguchi when they walk past.

It is nice when you are praised, but you really learn when your mistakes are held up in front of yoru nose and pointed out so you can see them. It is not the mistakes I know about that worry me, it is the mistakes I do not realize I am making and am drilling into me as part of practice that keeps me coming back week after week to training. And the teachers I go to are notorious for giving out more corrections than rank. It does not make them popular, which leads to another advantage of small class size.

 

[Kreth]

I know of a few people that have perfected the "help- I am lost" look to direct at guys like Noguchi when they walk past.

Hell, that's pretty much my constant expression when training in Japan... :anic:

Jeff

 

[Enson]

after reading all the post on this site which was suppose to be about stephen k. hayes... it seems like we end up back where we begin. talking about how hatsumi sensei is better than everyone else, and everyone should just realize that and correct there ways. (for those that don't train with hatsumi) i do realize that hatsumi is better than me, but i would dare to say there are no eternal reprocussions for not wanting to mimic hatsumi. as don has said many times before... when a person is the head of their art they can make it be whatever they want it to be. just like bujinkan, genbukan, jenikan, klingan...etc. if the head of that organization decides to integrate tkd then so be it. what have we established so far. is what hatsumi sensei teaching traditional? well from many post here i would imagine it is not. since he has been modernizing (others say perfecting) his style. even ralph said that he has had over 20 yrs. since he trained with takamatsu. if you wanted to learn what traditional ninjutsu is then you should have trained with takamatsu. but then again who is to say takamatsu knew it all? so let us review:

*bujinkan is whatever hatsumi wants it to be

*the only traditional art would have come from takamatsu or seiko

*there are some really rude people that study the bujinkan (no one on this site of course)
* the japanese as described by don are a little "two faced" and "back stabbing" (all of my japanese clients are some of the best people i know)
*ralph is very knowledgeable when it comes to combat and he has found weaknesses in what he originaly learned and tried to perfect them.

*we fight so much on this forum people think we are married. (like the hapkido guys)

*and i'm still trying to find out what "pr" means. pretty rad? popular & roudy? pretty ripped? (thanks)
*stephen k. hayes should be respected for all he has done for the art of ninjutsu.
again these are just my opinions and aren't ment to be taken out of context, twisted, or whatever. so let the shredding contest begin. who's first? lets just all admit that stephen k. hayes (the reason for this thread) is a great man, and has done more in one life time for the art of ninjutsu than any or us can hope to accomplish. (imo)

alright peace.

 

[heretic888]

The most amazing thing, Enson, is how you've completely missed a lot of points made in the discussion. Your "summary" indicates you haven't been paying attention at all.

Oh well, your loss. I guess.

Laterz. :asian:

 

[Enson]

:mp5: :jedi1: this is to edit.
peace

 

[heretic888]

Oy vey.