Stephen K. Hayes

[Enson]

That is just plain rude and insulting. Even hinting that Jay does not play fair as a moderator is untrue and beneath someone of honor. Does the fact that the guy in the thread that is the most knowledgeable about Terry is not a member here seem to have come into your consideration? And why not post to something that is as full of details as that post is?

why do i have to be the one thats rude? hee hee! i never even thought that jay wasn't fair as a moderator. i was writing this post and i remembered after that jay was a moderator. thank you very much for your concern don. by the way sometimes things don't come into my consideration. i guess God is still molding this clay. sorry i'm not that perfect yet. re: other sites. we don't all have the time to be clicking on a bunch of other sites all day trying to find the right link. just post it here so us "lazy" people can read it maybe for the first time. little harsh response don't you think don? i never intended to insult anyone. "bad enson,... bad!" oh can you help us out on this discussion now?
jay bell i really don't know how you are as a moderator. i have just read some good and bad things. (today) i never visit budoseek cause i can't get my account to work right. i accidently erased my confirmation email. anyway hope no offense was taken. the thing is i get all excited reading the post and then there is a link for another site. then i have to click on it and then another and another. you get the picture. sorry if you got upset.
peace

 

[Enson]

Dale,
So basically a few individuals who were actively training in the 70's and 80's basically slowed or stopped their regular regular training with Hatsumi, who continued to move forward with his own research, and are missing the more current info? The result being that to promote accuracy folks have a '1 or the other, but not both' situation.

??

sounds a little cultish to me. i guess alot has changed since then. but then again i thought it was supposed to be traditional ninjutsu? so if things are changing in the last decade are they getting modern? (a real question) i would think that hayes would be teaching the real traditional stuff then because hatsumi sensei has modernized his approach.

 

[Jay Bell]

jay bell i really don't know how you are as a moderator. i have just read some good and bad things. (today) i never visit budoseek cause i can't get my account to work right. i accidently erased my confirmation email. anyway hope no offense was taken. the thing is i get all excited reading the post and then there is a link for another site. then i have to click on it and then another and another. you get the picture. sorry if you got upset.

I'm a horrible tyrant of a man. No offense was taken, no worries. Shoot me an email at [email protected] with the username you used for Budoseek and I'll see what I can do if you like.

 

[Kreth]

sounds a little cultish to me.

Cultish how? Apparently, Hatsumi Sensei doesn't want people representing him that have rarely trained with him recently (if at all).

Jeff

 

[Enson]

Cultish how? Apparently, Hatsumi Sensei doesn't want people representing him that have rarely trained with him recently (if at all).

Jeff

are you hinting skh never trained with hatsumi? because thats who we are talking about here right. cultish? well it just reminded me of david coresh (spelling) you know waco texas? (no offense ralph) "you can't see your family ever again and you can't be with your spouse/wife. just me". thats how is sounded cultish. don't get mad just sounds strange. i understand that he doesn't want people representing him but hayes was his personal student wasn't he? i mean i guess it could all be fake and hayes is repenting by making his own style. digital enhanced photos with hatsumi and stuff. i guess it could happen. oh the lost episode of "tales from the darkside".

 

[Kreth]

are you hinting skh never trained with hatsumi?

No, I'm saying that he has rarely trained with him recently. Sorry if the multiple syllables threw you off...

Jeff

 

[Enson]

No, I'm saying that he has rarely trained with him recently. Sorry if the multiple syllables threw you off...

Jeff

apology accepted! see who says i don't get along?
peace

 

[r.severe]

Enson
You should do research on the Waco deal.
You might find that it was about money.

The same with the Bujinkan deal.
Do your research and you'll find it's about more or less money too.

The deal with the Bujinkan is twisted.
Hatsumi sensei cannot stop anyone from learning or growing. This goes for the goofy Bujinkan police than in reality have no power to police at all for any martial art group.

The ryuha of the Bujinkan have been laid out and given to the many members freely by many Bujinkan guides.. so it's out there to have.
This has nothing to do with Hatsumi ryu by the way.
Hatsumi ryu is NOT the ryuha as they were passed down but the ideas of the soke in general from the ryuha.

ralph severe, kamiyama

 

[gmunoz]

Money, Money, Money...

I guess everybody has their flaws after all...
The love of it is the root of all evil.

 

[Jay Bell]

Hatsumi ryu is NOT the ryuha as they were passed down but the ideas of the soke in general from the ryuha.

I'm not so sure on this one, Ralph. Hatsumi sensei has explained that he teaches in a manner that was passed to him by Takamatsu sensei.

 

[r.severe]

Well Jay, you may disagree.
But Hatsumi sensei is NOT Takamatusu sensei.
Takamatsu sensei had fighting experience.

ralph severe, kamiyama

 

[Phipps]

You are correct in that Hatsumi Sensei is not Takamatsu Sensei, however he said he "teaches" the way Takamatsu Sensei taught him. Beyond which the way I understand it Hatsumi Sensei's teaching has been leading to where the Bujinkan is now. If a student stopped training with him 5 years ago how are you supposed to have the same feeling? It seems like someone who trains in an art for a few years then moves to another without training long enough to learn the more advanced levels as the art. There is no problem with this however if you are not studying with someone who understands this advanced level what you teach might be effective but it is not Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. Techniques have to be taught in a progression and if the practitioner doesn't have this feeling how can they claim to teach the art. I think the concern is simply people passing off what they are doing as Budo Taijutsu when they don't know what's going on in the bujinkan right now. I maintain there is nothing wrong with teaching something else so long as that is understood.


Anton Phipps

 

[Enson]

so i will repeat myself. if hatsumi sensei is teaching today what is real taijutsu... then what was he teaching before? i believe hayes has a little more time than 5 yrs. under hatsumi but i could be wrong. so one could venture to say that those students, even those that are on this site that have learned taijutsu before 1-3 yrs ago don't know real taijutsu. i must say that i am taking on a new perspective of bujin now than before. in my personal experience as a musician one forgets some of the things that were taught to them originaly. so i find it hard to think that only now is hatsumi teaching (for real this time) what takamatsu taught him originaly. so was he making his own stuff up in the beginning? i don't know a whole lot of shakiness going on.

 

[Kreth]

Let me put this in context... Let's say that you have a teaching license in a made-up American style of ninjitsu. You have a student, who trains with you for a while, then pretty much goes off and does his own thing, showing up once in a great while for photo ops. Would you want him making use of the name of your system to attract students? Would you want your students to train with him?

Jeff

 

[Enson]

Let me put this in context... Let's say that you have a teaching license in a made-up American style of ninjitsu. You have a student, who trains with you for a while, then pretty much goes off and does his own thing, showing up once in a great while for photo ops. Would you want him making use of the name of your system to attract students? Would you want your students to train with him?

Jeff

so let me get into your context... what you are saying is hayes is a "never was" who just tried to cash in on the ninjutsu name. he only knows hatsumi in passing and never should even mention that he knows hatsumi. he went to japan on vacation and just happened to be passing by hatsumi and took a picture with him. then when he found out that hatsumi was a ninjutsu master he cashed in on the name. how does that explain the video footage? everyones' fake but you huh? okay, okay, i'll buy your brand for a second. let me submit this to you jeff... maybe hayes is telling the truth and he really did practice bujinkan and just maybe that would make him legit and the rest of the bujinkan masters on this site right and you as the only one doubting his skill. will you buy my brand?

 

[r.severe]

Anton....

You are correct in that Hatsumi Sensei is not Takamatsu Sensei, however he said he "teaches" the way Takamatsu Sensei taught him.

**ky, This could have been said and taken out of context. And taken out of a time line of 25 years.****

Beyond which the way I understand it Hatsumi Sensei's teaching has been leading to where the Bujinkan is now.

**ky, this is true with any journey. This is nothing special with Hatsumi sensei.******

If a student stopped training with him 5 years ago how are you supposed to have the same feeling?

**ky, If a student trains and has understanding of the gods… I cannot find any reason why anyone would lose any ‘feeling’ over time.. I see them progressing beyond their teacher’s methods. One thing for sure we, meaning as a whole, progress everyday of our lives. If you live in a box or a bubble type of environment then of course you will not progress in a wholesome manner.
This taken into account then you would have to assume ‘we’ wish to be like Hatsumi sensei too.
But I have fighting experience in my living experiences.
This of course points me in many different directions.
Not only with body control but for example into combative nature.. of the vortex of a fight and what really happens with being pounded on.
Hatsumi sensei is NOT the only martial artist with wonderful body control or knowledge of Japanese history.************

It seems like someone who trains in an art for a few years then moves to another without training long enough to learn the more advanced levels as the art.

**ky, with one class many can walk away with the understanding we all seek for in a life time. Time and training go hand in hand but satori is within a flash.
Experience of course takes time.
I would say it is not the art in question but the ability to understand what it is you are in search for and how much time that takes to grasp that feeling.******

Anton, before I post this I would like to point out one major point...
You have to assume that Donny shihan, Dale shihan or any other master ninja (Then again they might be the next coming of gods to the martial world..) on this forum are on the right track.. I don't believe they are. I feel they are misunderstanding what Hatsumi sensei is saying and doing.. and needs us to do..


ralph severe, kamiyama

 

[Kreth]

so let me get into your context... what you are saying is hayes is a "never was" who just tried to cash in on the ninjutsu name.

You'll have to point out where I claimed Hayes never trained with Hatsumi Sensei. I'll give you a hint, I never did. I said (and I'll try to use little words for you), that he trained with Sensei for a while, and now rarely does. In fact, I can think of at least a dozen people who by now have more "dirt time" training in Japan than Hayes. I'm sure any of the Japan residents can verify that his visits to Japan these days are little more than photo ops at Honbu Dojo and Togakushi. As such, I don't see anything wrong with Hatsumi Sensei telling Bujinkan students not to train with him. I've trained with Hayes, and he is very good at what he does, but it is not Bujinkan, it is his interpretation thereof.

Jeff

 

[Enson]

Cultish how? Apparently, Hatsumi Sensei doesn't want people representing him that have rarely trained with him(if at all).

Jeff

okay i guess you just implied it? "(if at all)" isn't that what "if at all" implies? don't hate me for exposing your mistakes... just fix them or apologize. no need to get mad at my questions. i'm not here to fight just find the truth.

 

[MisterMike]

"To-Shin Do techniques are based on an ancient and well-tested system of warrior disciplines handed down by nine historical Japanese family lineages."

From the website I don't think Hayes Sensei is claiming to teach Bujinkan stuff. He does acknowledge he studied there in the 70's however.

 

[Kreth]

okay i guess you just implied it? "(if at all)" isn't that what "if at all" implies? don't hate me for exposing your mistakes... just fix them or apologize. no need to get mad at my questions. i'm not here to fight just find the truth.

The mistake is yours. At the time of that post, several other of Sensei's former students had been mentioned (besides Hayes), some of whom no longer train with him at all.

Jeff