Stephen Hayes' books and "intepretation"

[heretic888]

This is a subject that has recently come to my attention. In essence, it deals with Mr. Hayes' translation (or "interpretation") of Takamatsu's Ninjutsu Hiketsu-Bun as found in the first chapter of Ninjutsu: History and Tradition. Here is an excerpt:

"In tune with the providence of heaven and the impartial justice of nature, and following a clear and pure heart full of trust in the inevitable, the ninja captures the insight that will guide him successfully into battle when he must conquer and conceal himself protectively from hostility when he must acquiesce.
The vast universe, beautiful in its coldly impersonal totality, contains all that we call good or bad, all the answers for all the paradoxes we see around us. By opening his eyes and his mind, the Ninja can responsively follow the subtle seasons and reasons of heaven, changing just as change is necessary, adapting always, so that in the end there is no such thing as a surprise for the ninja."

The same excerpt, when translated by Mr. Herman Kahn however, is rendered:

"If a person really acts correctly and in truth, he will be at one with this way of heaven. To be at one with the way of heaven is to accord to heaven's will. This is the critical essence of shinobi, the mind and eyes of god, the essential crux.
In this way the shinobi came to always hold as important one's everyday attitude and intentions. They could quickly respond to any stimulus from the outside world, no matter how small. This is because it was necessary to maintain a condition of being able without becoming in the least bit frightened or shocked to immediately respond to surrounding changes."

This is part of the same excerpt as translated by Mr. Ben Cole:

"If a person acts truthfully, in a just manner, they will be in accord with this way of heaven. If they are in accord with the way of heaven, the will of heaven will be done. This is the heart and the eyes of the gods, Kanjin Kaname—the vital essence of Shinobi."

Your thoughts?? :asian:

 

[MisterMike]

Seems the second two are closer together than the first. Perhaps the first (Hayes') is more of an interpretation as you stated.

Kahn: "If a person really acts correctly and in truth, he will be at one with this way of heaven. To be at one with the way of heaven is to accord to heaven's will. This is the critical essence of shinobi, the mind and eyes of god, the essential crux."

and


Cole: "If a person acts truthfully, in a just manner, they will be in accord with this way of heaven. If they are in accord with the way of heaven, the will of heaven will be done. This is the heart and the eyes of the gods, Kanjin Kaname—the vital essence of Shinobi."


are pretty close.

I do not get the same feeling from Mr. Hayes' version.

The second portion from Hayes is a little but closer to Kahn's then the first portion, but without seeing Cole's, I can't make a judgement.

 

[Bester]

When was the translation done? If it was early in his training, his understanding of the language might have been less than perfect.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

If you look closely at the book "Ninja Secrets from The Grandmaster" you'll find that the only thing Hatsumi sensei is doing there is telling Hayes exactly what he wants to hear...

 

[MrFunnieman]

heretic888

I think the major difference between the three is that Hayes has written the excerpt more artfully and it flows like prose.

I have seen many posts that scrutinize semantics. Language needs to be precise, but I don't think the essence of the interpretation is lost in Hayes excerpt. He uses a vividness that captures the reader's attention.

Nimravus, I know Hayes doesn't commit time to this, or any forum, but I know him personally and I think he would be inclined to say the same towards you and most Budo Taijutsu practitioners that started training in the early ninties...

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Thing is, we can tell...which is more than he seems able to do in the book.

 

[Don Roley]

I think the major difference between the three is that Hayes has written the excerpt more artfully and it flows like prose.

I have to disagree. There are some things that are added that just do not have any place in the original (impartial justice of nature, etc) and things that should have been translated that were not (mind and eyes of god, etc.)

For example- the latter, mind and eyes of God, is an important point. In Hayes, he states it like this,

By opening his eyes and his mind, the Ninja can responsively follow the subtle seasons and reasons of heaven, changing just as change is necessary, adapting always, so that in the end there is no such thing as a surprise for the ninja.

The thing is, "Eyes and Mind of God" is a rather important aspect and difficult pun. Normally it would be pronounced one way- but the special way of pronouncing it is Kanjin Kaname, which means "The most important". Combining the two images of the meaning with the charecters leaves one with a step off point to consider the total meaning. Hayes went too far in putting his own, limited, feeling of what it should mean. He should have just left it as short as possible and not tried to put in his own feelings into it.

I think what happened is that Hayes really did not translate this alone. His Japanese just was not that good at that time. In such cases you get a Japanese (i.e. Rumiko) to help you understand what is going on in either limited English or Japanese. You may not know the word for "ship", but the Japanese can tell you how it is an object that moves across the sea and carries people and cargo, etc. You can get through a lot of stuff this way. But in terms of precise translating of haiku- like stuff, it has some serious weaknesses. The expanded wording, etc, all reminds me of the explinations I have gotten when using this translating method.

 

[MrFunnieman]

Don,

I agree that Mrs. Hayes played a role in some of the initial translations. She probably gives input to this day.

I would love to discriminate the linquistics with you, but it is futile. I got a D in the conversational Japanese class I studied in college. I am certainly not in a position to debate words whose meanings change based on the character and alternative pronunciations. Living in Japan, I am sure you are more equipped for the job.

To compare or contrast the three excerpts, however, without knowing Japanese it is easier to find the relationships in all three. Hayes's interpretation appears to be more descriptive. (I understand it may not reflect the true intentions of the statement.)

The word "interpretation" is a slippery animal. I think there is a differece between one's interpretation and a literal translation. Unfortunately foreign languages are not often easily translated literally. Japanese being one of those languages. Therefore there is a need for interpretation.

I don't think the other interpretations really clear up or expand on the significance of "eyes and mind of God". Your post elluded to some significance, but there was none forth coming. In the simple statement then, there are many ways I could interpret the English phrase "eyes and mind of God". It may not be in alignment with anyone else's interpretation. To define it would put limitations on it's freedom of meaning? Has Hayes too readliy defined the word? Thus limiting its possible significance?

Just some thoughts,

MrFunnieman

 

[Don Roley]

Hayes's interpretation appears to be more descriptive.

That's the problem. There is more in the English version than there is in the Japanese version.

When you think of prose, you are probably thinking in terms of sonnets where something is described in as lovengly a way as possible so that the whole things is laid out in vivid images before your eyes. But the Japanese way of art tends towards leaving things out and letting the reader's imaginiation fill in the blanks. Instead of sonnets, they have haiku.

In the gokui and such meant to teach later generations, this vaugeness forces the reader to think about what is being said instead of presenting it for easy consumption. And as one grows, you tend to find deeper meanings in what is being said. To paraphrase Shrek, "Budo is like an onion- it has layers. "

By nailing down one description, Hayes did away with the full beauty of non- specificity and locked the description into that of a person who had only spent a short while studying the art at the time.

Sometimes less is more.

 

[MrFunnieman]

Don,

First off, I want to let you know that I have been enjoying this thread. It challenges my thinking. My replies have all been in good nature and I hope that you have received them that way.

By nailing down one description, Hayes did away with the full beauty of non- specificity and locked the description into that of a person who had only spent a short while studying the art at the time.

Sometimes less is more.

I agree with you. I undertand the logic behind that position and I would argue it myself (on another thread ).

I would like to offer another point for you to consider. I am sure that you are aware of the philosophical differences between the U.S. and Japan. I would like to purport the Hayes made an attempt, not to bridge the gap, but challenge an American reader. Again I have no real understanding of Japanese language or culture so I must rely on others to base my opinion. I have enjoyed this thread because it forces me to see another angle on the subject.

I would suggest that when the average American reads "the eyes and mind of God" they are not going to grasp its significance, but take it at face value and connect with associations of the Christian definition or concept of God. I do not believe, but I am willing to stand corrected, that the Japanese understanding of God and the western understanding are the same.

By using phrases like:

the impartial justice of nature

and

The vast universe, beautiful in its coldly impersonal totality

and

the Ninja can responsively follow the subtle seasons and reasons of heaven, changing just as change is necessary, adapting always, so that in the end there is no such thing as a surprise for the ninja

Hayes is able to create a different picture of the workings of the universe. I think that Americans are very familiar with the Christian paradigm of God, Heaven and Hell. I think the language used by Hayes starts to break up that paradigm.

Let me suggest that Hayes is breaking the American reader away from their traditional reference point. I understand that he points them in a certain direction. The beginner always needs led. Time, experience and thoughtfulness will redirect the reader to other conclustions over time. Just as you stated:

And as one grows, you tend to find deeper meanings in what is being said.

The intial leap is the most important. Hayes' interpretation allows a change of reference. He is inviting us to take that initial leap.

 

[heretic888]

I would like to offer another point for you to consider. I am sure that you are aware of the philosophical differences between the U.S. and Japan. I would like to purport the Hayes made an attempt, not to bridge the gap, but challenge an American reader.

Personally, I wasn't particularly "challenged" philosophically or intellectually when I read the aforementioned translation (and similar original works) by Hayes. I found other translations of Hatsumi-soke's work, such as Essence of Ninjutsu: The Nine Traditions, to be much more difficult to wrap my brain around.

Most likely, as Don said, it has to do with how specific, exact, and particular Hayes made everything out to be. I found Hatsumi-soke's other translations to be a lot less.... "verbose".

I would suggest that when the average American reads "the eyes and mind of God" they are not going to grasp its significance, but take it at face value and connect with associations of the Christian definition or concept of God. I do not believe, but I am willing to stand corrected, that the Japanese understanding of God and the western understanding are the same.

Hayes is able to create a different picture of the workings of the universe. I think that Americans are very familiar with the Christian paradigm of God, Heaven and Hell. I think the language used by Hayes starts to break up that paradigm.

Again, I will have to disagree here.

The only place I am aware of where Hayes overtly explains the "mind and eyes of the god" (his typical translation) is in Ninja Vol. 2: Warrior Ways of Enlightenment. During the last chapter of that work, he explains his interpretation of the kuji goshin ho.

The "god" he is referencing is clearly Dainichi Nyorai, the Cosmic Buddha --- who is equated with Amaterasu Omikami, Goddess of the Sun, in Ryobu Shinto. On a side note, the myo-oh that is associated with Dainichi is Fudo Myo-oh.

 

[Blind]

Sorry for a little thread drift, but how do you mean "equated with"? I have never heard this point of view before. I had always thought that Dainichi Nyorai was a guy who lived in Japan, was obviously talented went to China age 32?ish threw the diamond thunderbolt from China to Japan then found on what is now Mt. Koya(from what I was told).

Amaterasu Omikami I thought was a Shinto God that was supposed to exist in the age of the gods...blah blah Togakushi hiding behind a rock in a cave they had a party, she came out etc etc(I also think that E of N the nine traditions is very interesting reading).

If this sounds like I think you are wrong I don't, I would just like to know how you arrive at that point of view.

 

[heretic888]

Sorry for a little thread drift, but how do you mean "equated with"? I have never heard this point of view before. I had always thought that Dainichi Nyorai was a guy who lived in Japan, was obviously talented went to China age 32?ish threw the diamond thunderbolt from China to Japan then found on what is now Mt. Koya(from what I was told).

Amaterasu Omikami I thought was a Shinto God that was supposed to exist in the age of the gods...blah blah Togakushi hiding behind a rock in a cave they had a party, she came out etc etc(I also think that E of N the nine traditions is very interesting reading).

If this sounds like I think you are wrong I don't, I would just like to know how you arrive at that point of view.

I think you are mixing up Dainichi Nyorai (the Cosmic Buddha) with Kobo Daishi (founder of Shingon Buddhism):

http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/dainichi.shtml

Also, I was explictly referring to Ryobu Shinto, which is associated with Shingon Buddhism, a system of thought in which certain nyorai (buddhas) and certain kami (gods) were believed to be "one":

http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/shinto.shtml

"Shingon Shinto
Also called Ryobu Shinto, an interpretation of Shinto according to the doctrines of the Shingon sect of Buddhism. In the esoteric Shingon sect, the unity of the metaphysical world with the phenomenal and natural world is explained via the dualistic principles of the Kongokai (vajradhatu or diamond world) and Taizokai (garbhadhatu or womb world). See Ryokai Mandala for many more details. According to this interpretation, the relative is equivalent to the absolute and phenomenon is equivalent to noumenon. This principle was extended to assert that the native Japanese deities are equivalent to the Buddhist deities; for example, Amaterasu Omikami is viewed as equivalent to Dainichi Nyorai (Mahavairocana). This school of thought was said to have been initiated by Kukai (773-835), the founder of the Shingon sect in Japan, but it is in fact a later development. Kukai was, however, a strong believer in Shinto deities, and established the shrine Nibutsuhime Jinja as the tutelary deity of Koyasan, the mountain monastery which he founded. Other terms for the blending of Shinto with Buddhism are honji suijaku and shinbutsu shugo.

Theory of original reality and manifested traces. A theory of Shinto-Buddhist syncretism. Originally a Buddhist term used to explain the Buddha's nature as a metaphysical being (honji) and the historical figure Sakyamuni (suijaku). This theory was used in Japan to explain the relation between Shinto gods and Buddhas; the Buddhas were regarded as the honji, and the Shinto gods as their incarnations or suijaku. Theoretically, honji and suijaku are an indivisible unity and there is no question of valuing one more highly than the other; but in the early Nara period, the honji was regarded as more important than the suijaku. Gradually they both came to be regarded as one; but in the Kamakura period, Shintoists also proposed the opposite theory, that the Shinto gods were the honji and the Buddhas the suijaku. This theory was called han-honji-suijaku setsu or shinpon-butsuju setsu."

================================================

In any event, the "the god" that Hayes is referring to in his books is clearly Dainichi Nyorai, the Cosmic Buddha that is everywhere and in everything.

 

[Blind]

Aha, yes you are correct, please forgive my stupidity.
Also, thanks for the info. Mistaking Kukai for Dainichi Nyorai...well that's a brain fart if ever I had one.

 

[heretic888]

Aha, yes you are correct, please forgive my stupidity.
Also, thanks for the info. Mistaking Kukai for Dainichi Nyorai...well that's a brain fart if ever I had one.

No problemo.

 

[MrFunnieman]

Heretic 888,

You have made some insightful comments. Again the same situation with Don applies. You wrote:

The "god" he is referencing is clearly Dainichi Nyorai, the Cosmic Buddha --- who is equated with Amaterasu Omikami, Goddess of the Sun, in Ryobu Shinto. On a side note, the myo-oh that is associated with Dainichi is Fudo Myo-oh.

What I was trying to get at is the layperson in American, just getting involved in martial arts or "ninjutsu" has no idea what your statement means. With your background you understand that Hayes has focused the statement but to an untrained eye his comments do not seem as limiting. That was my intial point, with a corollary arguement that Hayes' excerpt uses language that does not tie it to western (American) philosophy.

I had hoped to read the text in Ninja vol. 2 before writing a reply, but I will be off line for about a week and wanted to make at least a comment before hand.

I enjoyed the background info on Dainichi Nyorai. Very informative.

MrFunnieman

 

[heretic888]

What I was trying to get at is the layperson in American, just getting involved in martial arts or "ninjutsu" has no idea what your statement means. With your background you understand that Hayes has focused the statement but to an untrained eye his comments do not seem as limiting.

Just read the last chapter of Ninja Vol. 2: Warrior Ways of Enlightenment, and it will quickly become apparent what context Hayes was deriving his understanding from. Around 90% of his philosophizing in his early works comes from Shingon Buddhism.

 

[Kizaru]

...and it will quickly become apparent what context Hayes was deriving his understanding from. Around 90% of his philosophizing in his early works comes from Shingon Buddhism.

I thought Stephen Hayes' background was in Tendai Buddhism from Mt. Hiei? Isn't Shingon a little bit different?

 

[heretic888]

I thought Stephen Hayes' background was in Tendai Buddhism from Mt. Hiei? Isn't Shingon a little bit different?

Yeah, but I believe he wrote the book in question before he got involved with the Tendai.