State of Mind when Fighting?

[Blindside]

I think the concepts of Zanshin and Mushin to be so fundamentally necessary to the study of martial arts that I don't really understand how people can call themselves martial artists without it.

If all you want to do is learn how to fight...fine....I could care less about that and that holds absolutely no interest for me. I am interested in much deeper/higher pursuits.

Whether you call them this or not, but zanshin and mushin are pretty universal concepts, I think any high level atheletic endeavor will strive to achieve both it isn't just a martial arts thing.

 

[ShotoNoob]

I think the concepts of Zanshin and Mushin to be so fundamentally necessary to the study of martial arts that I don't really understand how people can call themselves martial artists without it.

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>> Very Okinawan Karate Mastery of you.... as specifically set forth in the Shotokan karate curriculum.... What I would add these are the "mental clarity" principles embedded in the traditional training regimen. Tapping into them is purely an individual effort. Again, therein lies the requirement to seriously think about what you are doing.
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This is the drawback to the present day convention of Kyokushin's excessive full contact kumite training that so many Kyo advocates claim builds physical & mental toughness. The constant battering also detracts from the standard training environment under traditional karate per se, where the body is conditioned more for physical fitness which then supports and enhances mental development without the distraction of physical threat & body injury. Shotokan practice makes abundantly clear this principle......thanks to Gichin Funakoshi the academic that he was....
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We can learn from all styles, and all perspective,s that's my "Elvis has left the building..." approach....

 

[ShotoNoob]

Whether you call them this or not, but zanshin and mushin are pretty universal concepts, I think any high level athletic endeavor will strive to achieve both it isn't just a martial arts thing.

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I disagree on the athletics. A prime example would be to listen to professional MMA competitors or even the Greg Jackson-type interviews and then compare that to the TMA posts on this forum.....
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Moreover, I don't need a corner-man, I'm my own corner man. In fact, I'll tell a corner man what's to be done.
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I think the sport fighting MMA conventional method is good. Simply, it's for each of us to each to decide--but then live with your decision in competition, the result.

 

[drop bear]

Oh, hobbyhorse karate, yeah, then absolutely agree (on most fronts...some hobbyists/enthusiasts can be pretty serious and hard core, accomplished fighters...)

Yeah but take into account we are looking ar three months full time prep for a fifteen minute competition.

Against someone who is doing the same.

It becomes an arms race to a certain degree.

 

[Chris Parker]

Not really in regards to basic mental discipline. Which i think is achieved through doing hard tasks diligently. And not through some sort of specific mental discipline/clarity exercise.

Huh?

Honestly, I'm having a hard time following exactly what you're responding to here… "not really" what? You're "not really" assuming your methods are better, despite not actually having any? You "don't really" think that such training isn't possible? Or "not really", it's not such a stretch to think that, as you seem completely unfamiliar with the idea of mental state training (as seen in traditional systems), that you don't actually have any such methods?

I mean… here's the build up to your post…

And yet here you assume mma methods do not train mental clarity.

And yet, you're assuming that your methods are better than those that are specifically geared towards it… besides which, let's not forget that you've specifically stated that such training ins't possible… so to assume that your training methods don't contain it, as you seem completely unfamiliar with the idea, I don't think is such a stretch… do you?

So… which is it? "Not really in regards to basic mental discipline"… without context, I don't quite get what you're saying here…

But, to address the second part ("… mental discipline. Which i think is achieved through doing hard tasks diligently. And not through some sort of specific mental discipline/clarity exercise.")… frankly, all that tells me is that you really don't have the first idea what we're talking about. Yes, there are specific training exercises and methods for addressing mind-set. No, mental discipline isn't really what we're talking about (it's part of it, but really quite a fair bit below the level we're discussing)… that's, as you say, just part and parcel of doing anything with dedication. What we're talking about is developing specific mind-sets… not just "being disciplined". Each art has it's own specific mindset, for example… this is far more prominent in the classical systems, when you really look at them for the record. The "mind-set" of Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu is different to the mindset of Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu, which is different to the mindset of Hontai Yoshin Ryu, which is different to the mindset of Muso Shinden Ryu, and so on and so forth. Is there cross-over? Absolutely. But they are all different, in their own way, with differing emphasis' in different arts.

This is what we've been saying… the base level approach to mental training you're talking about isn't really anything like actual mental training as addressed in classical systems.

 

[Zero]

Yeah but take into account we are looking ar three months full time prep for a fifteen minute competition.

Against someone who is doing the same.

It becomes an arms race to a certain degree.

Yes, I do agree there in the most part. That's why I don't compete that often now, it takes so long for me to get to that level of preparedness and fight fitness, I have had several previous fight build ups ruined by getting slammed by work in the lead up to a tournament, when you have a full time demanding job you can't match it for long with guys putting in 3 or 4 or more hours a day on their fighting and conditioning. It's like that with anything.

 

[Zero]

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I disagree on the athletics. A prime example would be to listen to professional MMA competitors or even the Greg Jackson-type interviews and then compare that to the TMA posts on this forum.....

I am not sure how much research you have done or personal experience you have regarding athletics, or other sporting activities, to be disagreeing there and claiming such. Top, and even intermediate athletics, has a high degree of mental and psychological work that is done as part of the training. For a long time now a lot of the commercial, competitive sports world has placed emphasis on this also. Name an NBL or major league team that doesn't have a dedicated sports psychologist as part of their get-up?

From your sentence, I was not sure if you were comparing mma to all athletics or just to TMA as you refer to both...??

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Moreover, I don't need a corner-man, I'm my own corner man. In fact, I'll tell a corner man what's to be done.

This is just crazy talk from someone who has never had a serious competitive fight, sorry to put it like that but that is exactly how this comes across...you need a corner man (or team), especially when you are injured or tiring, to re-focus you, inform you about what you are forgetting or not focusing on and let you know what you are missing re your opponent, what to avoid, angles to work, weaknesses to exploit (either during the fight, if rules allow, or when you are in the corner between rounds).
OK, so you don't need one but to say you are your own corner man...well, ok, maybe you are greater and more Omni-aware than all the world champions that have gone before you...but how likely is that?

 

[drop bear]

Huh?

Honestly, I'm having a hard time following exactly what you're responding to here… "not really" what? You're "not really" assuming your methods are better, despite not actually having any? You "don't really" think that such training isn't possible? Or "not really", it's not such a stretch to think that, as you seem completely unfamiliar with the idea of mental state training (as seen in traditional systems), that you don't actually have any such methods?

I mean… here's the build up to your post…





So… which is it? "Not really in regards to basic mental discipline"… without context, I don't quite get what you're saying here…

But, to address the second part ("… mental discipline. Which i think is achieved through doing hard tasks diligently. And not through some sort of specific mental discipline/clarity exercise.")… frankly, all that tells me is that you really don't have the first idea what we're talking about. Yes, there are specific training exercises and methods for addressing mind-set. No, mental discipline isn't really what we're talking about (it's part of it, but really quite a fair bit below the level we're discussing)… that's, as you say, just part and parcel of doing anything with dedication. What we're talking about is developing specific mind-sets… not just "being disciplined". Each art has it's own specific mindset, for example… this is far more prominent in the classical systems, when you really look at them for the record. The "mind-set" of Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu is different to the mindset of Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu, which is different to the mindset of Hontai Yoshin Ryu, which is different to the mindset of Muso Shinden Ryu, and so on and so forth. Is there cross-over? Absolutely. But they are all different, in their own way, with differing emphasis' in different arts.

This is what we've been saying… the base level approach to mental training you're talking about isn't really anything like actual mental training as addressed in classical systems.

What system of mindset training do you think military's use?

 

[drop bear]

This is just crazy talk from someone who has never had a serious competitive fight, sorry to put it like that but that is exactly how this comes across...you need a corner man (or team), especially when you are injured or tiring, to re-focus you, inform you about what you are forgetting or not focusing on and let you know what you are missing re your opponent, what to avoid, angles to work, weaknesses to exploit (either during the fight, if rules allow, or when you are in the corner between rounds).
OK, so you don't need one but to say you are your own corner man...well, ok, maybe you are greater and more Omni-aware than all the world champions that have gone before you...but how likely is that?

more importantly you would have to jump out and grab your own little stool. Which would be incredibly irritating.

 

[Chris Parker]

What system of mindset training do you think military's use?

Here's a mindbender for you… military and martial arts are far from the same thing…

To that end, what facet of the military are you talking about? Are you talking about basic training? Or something else? The answer will change depending on what you mean…

 

[drop bear]

Here's a mindbender for you… military and martial arts are far from the same thing…

To that end, what facet of the military are you talking about? Are you talking about basic training? Or something else? The answer will change depending on what you mean…

On the topic of mindset. How are they different?

Basic training.

 

[Chris Parker]

Look to the aims and purpose of each to give some insight into the mindset required and intended. When looking at basic training, it is exactly that… basic training. The aim is not to make the soldier a top-level warrior, or even a high level fighting machine… it's to instill basic skills (for the military), and to create a person who will follow orders. That mentality is really quite removed from martial arts training… which, classically, was geared more towards the leaders of the soldiers, rather than the soldiers themselves.

 

[Danny T]

i don't disagree. But lets take all of those activities done professionally and compare it to karate at what is basically a hobby level.

There are far more in what is known as mma that are hobby level than those who are fighters. Means nothing. There are many good karate fighters. Means nothing. There are a huge amount of wantabees in the mma world. That is why there are now so many mma gyms. Good money in it and that is where the mental clarity is.

 

[drop bear]

There are far more in what is known as mma that are hobby level than those who are fighters. Means nothing. There are many good karate fighters. Means nothing. There are a huge amount of wantabees in the mma world. That is why there are now so many mma gyms. Good money in it and that is where the mental clarity is.

Yes and training at a hobby level regardless of the system generally will take less discipline than someone who is fight training. I train at a hobby level. And have less discipline than someone who is fight training.

And personally I believe that doing some sort of mindset training would not give me greater discipline than someone who is fight training.

 

[Chris Parker]

It's not about discipline, though… that's where you're grasping the wrong end of things.

 

[drop bear]

Look to the aims and purpose of each to give some insight into the mindset required and intended. When looking at basic training, it is exactly that… basic training. The aim is not to make the soldier a top-level warrior, or even a high level fighting machine… it's to instill basic skills (for the military), and to create a person who will follow orders. That mentality is really quite removed from martial arts training… which, classically, was geared more towards the leaders of the soldiers, rather than the soldiers themselves.

The army does have a website you know. And it disagrees with you.
1st Recruit Training Battalion - Australian Army

 

[drop bear]

It's not about discipline, though… that's where you're grasping the wrong end of things.

What is it about?

 

[Chris Parker]

The army does have a website you know. And it disagrees with you.
1st Recruit Training Battalion - Australian Army

Yeah… there's nothing there that disagrees with me, you know. "Mental preparedness" is a different idea to what we're talking about… and is more in line with being mentally ready to follow the orders.

What is it about?

That has been touched upon since the beginning of the thread, and you haven't picked up on any of it. But, to placate you, it's about developing a specific (to the system) mindset, incorporating tactical preferences, non-emotional engagement, superior clarity of aim, and a whole bunch of intangibles that are specific to the art itself. The mindset desired for my Iai training is different to my jujutsu training… which differs from ryu-ha to ryu-ha… and is different again to the kenjutsu systems I do (which are, in turn, different to each other). What makes them different? Well, that's the intangible… but to reduce it all down to "discipline" is to miss the point. Discipline is general… mindsets (for martial arts) are specific.

 

[Spinedoc]

Yeah… there's nothing there that disagrees with me, you know. "Mental preparedness" is a different idea to what we're talking about… and is more in line with being mentally ready to follow the orders.



That has been touched upon since the beginning of the thread, and you haven't picked up on any of it. But, to placate you, it's about developing a specific (to the system) mindset, incorporating tactical preferences, non-emotional engagement, superior clarity of aim, and a whole bunch of intangibles that are specific to the art itself. The mindset desired for my Iai training is different to my jujutsu training… which differs from ryu-ha to ryu-ha… and is different again to the kenjutsu systems I do (which are, in turn, different to each other). What makes them different? Well, that's the intangible… but to reduce it all down to "discipline" is to miss the point. Discipline is general… mindsets (for martial arts) are specific.

Exactly, I've found that the mindset for Aikido is wildly different then then one for Muso Shinden Ryu. In fact, it might be one of the biggest contrasts between the two arts.

 

[drop bear]

Yeah… there's nothing there that disagrees with me, you know. "Mental preparedness" is a different idea to what we're talking about… and is more in line with being mentally ready to follow the orders.

you said it is not designed to create a top level warrior. The army said is is designed to create an exceptional Australian soldier.

you said it is designed to create someone who follows orders. The army said it is to create someone who shows initiative.