State of Mind when Fighting?

[ShotoNoob]

"WONDERBOY" THOMPSON VS. BRANDON "RUCKUS"THATCH
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Will comment over at the Karate for MMA forum when Wonderboy recovers from rib injury. I think he would have beat Thatch. Would have been a great fight, Thatch definitely not a walkover.
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As my posts explain, when the Okinawan Masters denoted the Heian kata to symbol "calm & peaceful," it wasn't just a philosophical whimsy, it was the principal basis for the mental dimension of traditional karate training.

 

[BeeBrian]

A little random info...

Do you guys know about the origin of the Taoist religion?

Once upon a China, some farmers decided to stop being so frustrated about the inevitable winter... So they adopted the philosophy of Wu Wei, which means "non-action".

It's about the emptying of the mind, and having a blank slate, so you can be one with the universe/be in the now/have a center of gravity...

But what if you have reason to be angry? Don't you capitalize on that? If we follow Wu Wei, shouldn't we not suppress that anger and just let it happen?

I'm confused.........

I mean, I've been following that technique in daily life and it seems to work really well. But what about combat?

 

[drop bear]

I had to look up golden gloves, are you saying that golden gloves is like the equivalent of a black belt? (for level of expertise arguments sake)

Also, he was practicing with you for a test in boxing or karate?

Do you think age plays a significant role in mental clarity? I train with partners a lot older than I am and some a lot younger, I find the older "wiser" partners are much calmer than the younger and are more crafty than forceful, so they keep me on my toes.

One of our guys is a golden gloves and one a silver. It is an amateur boxing tournament. So you have to be better than a heap of guys on the day. You also do 4 or 5 fights in a knockout competition. It is kind of a big deal in ammy boxing.

 

[drop bear]

There's no "out" in a self defense situation or true kumite. It's you or the opponent. That's it. The competitor with greater "mental clarity" should win in MMA or TMA or self defense. That's the TMA theory.

So if this is true. Great mma fighters have great mental clarity.

 

[drop bear]

You know, everybody doesn't have either the discipline or aptitude to be a mental fighter. So the conventional MMA methods and the sport karate approach are valid for many if not most MMA competitors.

And yet here you assume mma methods do not train mental clarity.

 

[Chris Parker]

And yet here you assume mma methods do not train mental clarity.

And yet, you're assuming that your methods are better than those that are specifically geared towards it… besides which, let's not forget that you've specifically stated that such training ins't possible… so to assume that your training methods don't contain it, as you seem completely unfamiliar with the idea, I don't think is such a stretch… do you?

 

[Zero]

Ok. But i put it to you that it takes greater mental clarity to fight mma than pretty much any other training. Because there is no out.

How many days a week do you train?

When you say "any other training" do you mean in the context of sport fighting, martial arts or any athletic training in general? I think you are keeping this in the "competition fighting" realm as that's the context but was not sure...

 

[Zero]

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YES. That's why I train a relatively basic style of karate.
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In closing to your reply, I study Shotokan for karate principles & one of the best quotes I ever heard was, "There are no shortcuts in Shotokan." The author, who was a guest commentator on an MMA website, went to say the that getting the foundation body mechanics in Shotokan takes many years of intense practice.

Sorry ShotoNoob, I find some of what you are saying hard to follow. You say you study a relatively basic style of karate and then go on to say you study Shotokan for karate principles. Are you saying you don't study in or train the Shotokan techniques and applications in a Shotokan school? But that you only study and consider the principles of the style?

If it is only the principles, then what actual techniques are you apply and training in? What is this "basic style of karate" from which you are training actual techniques? Is this different to Shotokan or the same?

Or are you taking Shotokan principles from a class you attend but then trying to simplify the strikes and techniques yourself?

I would not say Shotokan is a basic style of karate, I have trained in Shotokan schools while on travel and with friends. I do gojy ryu and to be honest, there are an awful lot of similarities between the two and for obvious reasons! In addition you reference the "guest commentator" as saying "getting the foundation body mechanics in Shotokan takes many years of intense practice" but then do not go on to refute this in any way. So I take it you at least agree in part with that?

So can you please re-clarify what it is you are studying in from an overall sense?

 

[Touch Of Death]

Having been trained in a superior style to all y'all's, I have found that I usually win the fight before I know I am in a fight; so, from that, the best way to win is to do your job well, and your job is to stay safe, Kids!.

 

[Transk53]

Having been trained in a superior style to all y'all's, I have found that I usually win the fight before I know I am in a fight; so, from that, the best way to win is to do your job well, and your job is to stay safe, Kids!.

Not quite true. I trained with Will Riker at Starfleet and have a pugil stick

 

[drop bear]

And yet, you're assuming that your methods are better than those that are specifically geared towards it… besides which, let's not forget that you've specifically stated that such training ins't possible… so to assume that your training methods don't contain it, as you seem completely unfamiliar with the idea, I don't think is such a stretch… do you?

Not really in regards to basic mental discipline. Which i think is achieved through doing hard tasks diligently. And not through some sort of specific mental discipline/clarity exercise.

 

[Transk53]

Not really in regards to basic mental discipline. Which i think is achieved through doing hard tasks diligently. And not through some sort of specific mental discipline/clarity exercise.

Yeah agree. Don't go much further than basic though.

 

[drop bear]

When you say "any other training" do you mean in the context of sport fighting, martial arts or any athletic training in general? I think you are keeping this in the "competition fighting" realm as that's the context but was not sure...

It would be any athletics where the results mean something. Where people want to make a career out of their sport.

 

[Zero]

It would be any athletics where the results mean something. Where people want to make a career out of their sport.

Wow! I haven't fought anything like UFC level but I have had quite a few mma fights and competed nationally in karate and regionally in kickboxing. I agree that when you are in the ring, the focus required is absolute as a momentary lapse you can get KO'd and you are constantly just one guy against another with no other team members to hide behind. In addition, with mma covering stand up striking, takedown and submission you need to focus on all aspects so the mental burn is big until you get used to that.

However, if you are talking generally I would very much hesitate before going so far as to state "it takes greater mental clarity to fight mma than pretty much any other training. Because there is no out". Try Formula 1 or freestyle rock climbing if you want to talk about the need for mental clarity and "no out". MMA, if you mess up you get KO'd (maybe also a bad lasting injury, maybe). F1 or climbing, you mess up, you die and possibly others with you. There are many other sports and activities that I would wager have more on the line than mma...

Even putting things in a "safe " environment and given you mentioned athletics, I am not sure the mental focus in an MMA ring is any greater than in an Olympics 100m final?

Mental focus:

 

[drop bear]

Wow! I haven't fought anything like UFC level but I have had quite a few mma fights and competed nationally in karate and regionally in kickboxing. I agree that when you are in the ring, the focus required is absolute as a momentary lapse you can get KO'd and you are constantly just one guy against another with no other team members to hide behind. In addition, with mma covering stand up striking, takedown and submission you need to focus on all aspects so the mental burn is big until you get used to that.

However, if you are talking generally I would very much hesitate before going so far as to state "it takes greater mental clarity to fight mma than pretty much any other training. Because there is no out". Try Formula 1 or freestyle rock climbing if you want to talk about the need for mental clarity and "no out". MMA, if you mess up you get KO'd (maybe also a bad lasting injury, maybe). F1 or climbing, you mess up, you die and possibly others with you. There are many other sports and activities that I would wager have more on the line than mma...

i don't disagree. But lets take all of those activities done professionally and compare it to karate at what is basically a hobby level.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Sorry ShotoNoob, I find some of what you are saying hard to follow. You say you study a relatively basic style of karate and then go on to say you study Shotokan for karate principles. Are you saying you don't study in or train the Shotokan techniques and applications in a Shotokan school? But that you only study and consider the principles of the style?

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You've said alot, covered a lot. I'll try to do justice.
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Personally, I don't care for the Shotokan style of karate, how most practice it. It has some attributes i find incomparable with my aptitudes and understanding. So no, I don't practice Shotokan, inside or outside of a school. You final sentence is correct in how I approach & use Shotokan.

If it is only the principles, then what actual techniques are you apply and training in? What is this "basic style of karate" from which you are training actual techniques? Is this different to Shotokan or the same?

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My base karate style, the actual techniques, is an offshoot of Shotokan karate. So for discussion, I can use Shotokan for most purposes. My traditional karate style shares most of the same strengths & weaknesses of the Ginchin Funakoshi Shotokan, including some of the later popularized evolutions of Shotokan.

Or are you taking Shotokan principles from a class you attend but then trying to simplify the strikes and techniques yourself?

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NO.
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IMO, the techniques are the same level of complexity.

I would not say Shotokan is a basic style of karate, I have trained in Shotokan schools while on travel and with friends. I do gojy ryu and to be honest, there are an awful lot of similarities between the two and for obvious reasons! In addition you reference the "guest commentator" as saying "getting the foundation body mechanics in Shotokan takes many years of intense practice" but then do not go on to refute this in any way. So I take it you at least agree in part with that?

So can you please re-clarify what it is you are studying in from an overall sense?

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Yes, this is a very key clarification that is needed. Also very, very important for those in the MMA arena who want to utilize the traditional karate style. << I think this the best forum around willing to openly entertain the MMA vs. TMA style issue / controversy >>.
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My overall view of Shotokan is that it is Karate-Do, which focuses more on the foundation skills and emphasizes physical fitness, later mental discipline. The Okinawan karates, such as Gojy Ryu are Karate-Jutsu, which focus, in addition to foundation, on more actual fighting, practical martial applications. I also feel the traditional karate base is stronger in Gojy in many areas. Nonetheless, Shotokan done true to principles can make you very, damn strong, certainly strong enough to take all but the very elitist in MMA. By MMA elite, I mean the 1 in 1 million like John Jones. I would love to see Jon Jones go up against a true Shotokan Master.
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Furthemore, careful readings of my posts will reveal is that personal development of the foundational skills of traditional karate, which include a very well rounded physical fitness, and particularly the "mental state of mind," the mental discipline of mind-body unity, is quite sophisticated & complicated internal process. Since Shotokan strives to do so, which is common across all styles of traditional karate, the outward form of Shotokan may be more physically "simple," and more physically oriented, however, the internal development process is still quite complicated & involved. Shotokan also goes into a lot of detail on technique, but much of that detail is on how to do existing technique or additional technique of the same "basic' form.
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And so you're still talking the 3-5 years for Shotokan black-belt, as a generalization. Developing the foundational skills takes a forging process because of the sophisticated nature of that process, as I've described. The simpler form is basically in the outward construction & execution of the physical technique. And there's still some relative complexity there, additional applications as I've noted.
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That's my view of Shotokan. I think there's lots to criticize about Shotokan, but any nitwit can try & find fault. Therefore, I understand Shotokan done right to be very powerful and those who underestimate Shotokan most often do not understand what traditional karate is trying to accomplish. Shotokan is popular for a reason in that it appeals to many people's aptitudes & practicality in training.
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So though I personally would never choose Shotokan karate for myself, do I endorse it,? HECK YA!!!!
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P.S. Needless to say, the type of MMA fighter you typically will see at the big name MMA schools would never, ever get out of the box in my traditional karate program. They wouldn't pay attention to me either. Those MMA schools are doing a good job for many competitors on the level they want to aspire to. The MMA schools who say they've come up with something better, more modern.... sorry the Okinawan Masters know better, in my experience.

 

[Zero]

i don't disagree. But lets take all of those activities done professionally and compare it to karate at what is basically a hobby level.

Oh, hobbyhorse karate, yeah, then absolutely agree (on most fronts...some hobbyists/enthusiasts can be pretty serious and hard core, accomplished fighters...)

 

[Spinedoc]

I think the concepts of Zanshin and Mushin to be so fundamentally necessary to the study of martial arts that I don't really understand how people can call themselves martial artists without it.

If all you want to do is learn how to fight...fine....I could care less about that and that holds absolutely no interest for me. I am interested in much deeper/higher pursuits.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Not really in regards to basic mental discipline. Which i think is achieved through doing hard tasks diligently. And not through some sort of specific mental discipline/clarity exercise.

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Exactly right in terms of the different concepts (TMA vs. MMA-sport) on how to approach effective martial training.
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And it's fighting that requires mental focus, the question as I believe Chris Parker wrote, is how you best go about attaining that. The Okinawan Masters tell us how to do that via the traditional karate model. Now, we all make a decision on conventional MMA vs. TMA (karate) vs. a cross-training of the two poles--sport karate or individual mixture, say boxing & karate. Like I say we have a 1st degree black-belt at our dojo who has been very, very successful at official karate tournaments (IMU, mostly limited to our style) with the latter boxing-karate mixture. That's the path he's chosen and it's proven successful in the venue in which he's competing, that's a fact.

 

[ShotoNoob]

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Exactly right in terms of the different concepts (TMA vs. MMA-sport) on how to approach effective martial training.

I
To quote myself, and refer to my Boxer-Golden Gloves Protege Sparring Match Story, that's how I got picked on by the Protege because me walking around advocating a "calm & peaceful, & tranquil" behavioral mentality in a dojo stocked with aggressive sporting students; well that's viewed by them as sissy, philosophical musings of a wannabe karate fighter (George Takei didn't some intelligent poster say,?). When the reality it's the other way around......................................................................................................................................................................[super smiley].