State of Mind when Fighting?

[drop bear]

I agree, being a soldier is a professional career, which like any profession is trained for. Long gone are the days of instant obedience and 'over the top'. These days the military is as likely to be doing humanitarian and peace keeping duties as fighting wars. When they do fight wars the infantry soldier is no longer the 'grunt' on the ground, the job is very specialised. War has become very technical and clinical so the old 'warrior' mindset has been replaced with the new 'warrior' mindset of getting the job done with all the tools at their disposal, much like surgeons now so any comparison of the military mind set and the martial arts mind set isn't valid.

Why are the mindsets so different? They are both designed to equip you to handle conflict.

 

[drop bear]

No not really. Neither Both are irrelevant as to what you originally asked.

Ok then. How do you develop a mindset that prepares you to fight people?

What kind of mind set do you think you should develop?

 

[drop bear]

Just a bit of banter between me and drop bear. That it is how I intend anyway

Yeah I don't feel we are getting especially hot and heavy.

 

[jks9199]

Folks,
Rather than try to figure out whether or not a suggestion to reign in behavior is meant for you, or debate whether it's merited or not -- maybe, just maybe it would be a good idea to simply check your posting behavior, and if it's questionable, address it. Otherwise -- don't worry about it. There are numerous posts in this thread that are moving beyond a little friendly banter, and the purpose of gentle warning or nudge is to pull things back before heavier steps need to be taken. Think of it like driving down a road, and seeing a seat belt reminder or "don't drive drunk" billboard. If you're wearing your seatbelt, and not drunk at the wheel... you kind of ignore the sign, right?

 

[Argus]

Ok. Who uses or understands these concepts?

people who actually get into fights would be nice.

You can do so yourself, if you train in such an art and retain an open mind about it.

I will be honest; I do not really train in an art that utilizes Zanshin or Mushin, so I can't say that I know what I'm talking about myself here. But I do adopt a (I would guess) vaguely similar mindset in practice and sparring where I do not "think" but merely focus on being present, taking everything in objectively, and utilize my intuition to apply my training and adapt to the situation from moment to moment. I find that I perform a lot better in this state of mind than I do in others.

So, in my experience, staying calm and objectively taking in the moment, while utilizing my training via intuition and not feeling or thinking meets with positive results and allows me to better apply said training. Therefore, I would tend to argue that mindset is very important, and arts that incorporate it into their training probably do so in a pragmatic and applicable way that is integral to their practical, intended real-world application.

 

[drop bear]

You can do so yourself, if you train in such an art and retain an open mind about it.

I will be honest; I do not really train in an art that utilizes Zanshin or Mushin, so I can't say that I know what I'm talking about myself here. But I do adopt a (I would guess) vaguely similar mindset in practice and sparring where I do not "think" but merely focus on being present, taking everything in objectively, and utilize my intuition to apply my training and adapt to the situation from moment to moment. I find that I perform a lot better in this state of mind than I do in others.

So, in my experience, staying calm and objectively taking in the moment, while utilizing my training via intuition and not feeling or thinking meets with positive results and allows me to better apply said training. Therefore, I would tend to argue that mindset is very important, and arts that incorporate it into their training probably do so in a pragmatic and applicable way that is integral to their practical, intended real-world application.

What training methods did you use to achieve the minset?

 

[Chris Parker]

So the army website is wrong and you are right?

you cant sell that to anybody sorry.

You're missing what's being said. It's not a matter of me being right, the website being wrong, or anything of the kind... instead, it's a matter of differing contexts and emphasis due to intended audience. I'm not recruiting for the army, so I'm looking a little more generally at what a soldier is. You might note that former and current military personnel seem to be agreeing with me, rather than you here… so that might be a clue.

Yrs it is.

I'm sorry… are you telling me what I actually meant? Dude… no. I said that the aim is not to make a soldier into a "top-level warrior"… which clearly differentiates them from each other.

In other words, no. They are not the same thing in the context of this discussion.

Reducing the system to something that people who fight can use. And that people who do fight use.

Look, to be completely blunt here, you're missing pretty much everything still. I'll put it this way… being able to fight isn't always the aim, or even important… but, at the same time, it's central. However, what that means is that most of this is actually backwards to what you think it is. It's not a matter of reducing things to something "people who fight" can use… it's a matter of people who fought coming up with, and refining, what worked.

If nobody uses your system or understands it. It is kind of a pointless exercise. Even if it had relevance. Which so far you haven't shown.

Er… what? I have no idea where you're getting some of these ideas from here… if nobody uses my system? What? If nobody understands it? Dude, what are you going on about?

And here is the point of it you may have a martial mindset. But there is no link to it helping you in a fight. Which makes that mindset only relevant to your martial art.

Okay, I've mentioned the idea of "frogs in a well" a few times… I think it might be time to explain that one.

It's an old Chinese story, although the sentiment is found in Japan as well… and basically, it goes along these lines: A frog lived in the bottom of a well… happy and content. One day, a turtle came along, and called down to the frog "Hey, down there… would you like to come up here?"

"Why would I want to do that?" replied the frog. "Down here is paradise! I know the entire universe! I have tall walls that are solid and unbreakable… there is mud for me to jump in, a pool to wet my feet in, grubs for me to eat, and a circle of light above me. What else is there to the world than this?"

The turtle heard this, and shook his head… "But it's so small! The pond you talk of is nothing compared to the ocean, which is greater and more vast than your eyes will ever see… the walls are short and stop you from being in the bigger world… the circle of light is but a tiny fraction of the enormity of the sky… come up and see the real world!"

The frog heard this, and realised that what he thought was the world was nothing but a small hole in the ground… safe, but small.

The moral is simple… the frog had a very limited exposure, but felt that he knew what the entire universe was. He was, however, completely ignorant of everything outside the well.

What I'm saying here is that yes, it's to do with my martial art… but you are so completely unaware of what that is, what is entailed in that, and how it all relates to "fighting" that these claims you're making some very odd assumptions that only have basis in your own lack of understanding and ability to comprehend what you've been told multiple times now.

My argument is that the goal orientation the professionalism and confidence is a fighting mindset. Rather than achieving some mystical state of enlightened fight readiness through specialized training.

And our argument is that, no, those aspects are not a "fighting mindset", and that your idea of there being some "mystical state of enlightened fight readiness" is based only in your ignorance of what's being discussed, not in anything anyone has said here.

Ok. Who uses or understands these concepts?

people who actually get into fights would be nice.

Do you want historical accounts, or present day ones? There are plenty of both, for the record…

Why are the mindsets so different? They are both designed to equip you to handle conflict.

You do understand what different contexts are, yeah?

Ok then. How do you develop a mindset that prepares you to fight people?

Once again, that's really not the point. You're looking at it all from the wrong side of things.

What kind of mind set do you think you should develop?

For what?

 

[Transk53]

Ok then. How do you develop a mindset that prepares you to fight people?

What kind of mind set do you think you should develop?

Mindset is pretty much hard wired, well at least that is my opinion. I think there are a lot more people that will never develop the fighting mentality. I guess if I could risk the rude I would, but then again would be pretty stupid of me. I can't answer the question, could guess and there is no point in that. I just go n myself, which predominately is at a basic level on this site. My guess I suppose would be to peeve someone off and just basically wade in. That person would find out if they can strike and move for example, if not, their on the deck mulling over "Why the hell did I get hit"

 

[Transk53]

Yeah I don't feel we are getting especially hot and heavy.

Maybe it would be more me. Anyway you are an Ozzie and I am a Pommie. Is it not our civic duty to lighten up the mood

 

[Blindside]

Mindset is pretty much hard wired, well at least that is my opinion. I think there are a lot more people that will never develop the fighting mentality. I guess if I could risk the rude I would, but then again would be pretty stupid of me. I can't answer the question, could guess and there is no point in that. I just go n myself, which predominately is at a basic level on this site. My guess I suppose would be to peeve someone off and just basically wade in. That person would find out if they can strike and move for example, if not, their on the deck mulling over "Why the hell did I get hit"

There may be more aggressive personality traits that are inherent, but I do think that can be changed through changing and exposure. Half of it is the confidence that the martial arts are supposed to develop, the knowledge that "well crap, I CAN deal with this, because I have done it before." I often refer to myself as a "technician" rather than a fighter because I derive my pleasure from being able to successfully execute a "good" technique whereas when I think of the "fighter" I think of one of Randy Coutoure's quotes (paraphrasing here) about how he enjoys grinding on people until he feels their will break. But I have been developed by my instructors to be a technician who can fight.

 

[Transk53]

There may be more aggressive personality traits that are inherent, but I do think that can be changed through changing and exposure. Half of it is the confidence that the martial arts are supposed to develop, the knowledge that "well crap, I CAN deal with this, because I have done it before." I often refer to myself as a "technician" rather than a fighter because I derive my pleasure from being able to successfully execute a "good" technique whereas when I think of the "fighter" I think of one of Randy Coutoure's quotes (paraphrasing here) about how he enjoys grinding on people until he feels their will break. But I have been developed by my instructors to be a technician who can fight.

Thanks A very good reply. Yeah what you have posted resonates, but from a different scene. The latter I could ask questions 24-7

 

[drop bear]

You're missing what's being said. It's not a matter of me being right, the website being wrong, or anything of the kind... instead, it's a matter of differing contexts and emphasis due to intended audience. I'm not recruiting for the army, so I'm looking a little more generally at what a soldier is. You might note that former and current military personnel seem to be agreeing with me, rather than you here… so that might be a clue.

Lol.no they are not.

 

[drop bear]

I'm sorry… are you telling me what I actually meant? Dude… no. I said that the aim is not to make a soldier into a "top-level warrior"… which clearly differentiates them from each other.

In other words, no. They are not the same thing in the context of this discussion.

Yes it is. Soldier/warrior. In the context of mindset in a fight. Same thing.

And what you mean is that there is a soldier that has a basic training who only goes to foreign countries and kills people and a warrior who trains in superior fighting mindset. But who doesn't go anywhere or fight anyone.

close enough?

 

[drop bear]

You do understand what different contexts are, yeah?

Yes. One is a fighting mentality used by people who fight. And one is a martial arts mentality used by people who don't. But who would like to think they could.

 

[drop bear]

Okay, I've mentioned the idea of "frogs in a well" a few times… I think it might be time to explain that one.

It's an old Chinese story, although the sentiment is found in Japan as well… and basically, it goes along these lines: A frog lived in the bottom of a well… happy and content. One day, a turtle came along, and called down to the frog "Hey, down there… would you like to come up here?"

"Why would I want to do that?" replied the frog. "Down here is paradise! I know the entire universe! I have tall walls that are solid and unbreakable… there is mud for me to jump in, a pool to wet my feet in, grubs for me to eat, and a circle of light above me. What else is there to the world than this?"

The turtle heard this, and shook his head… "But it's so small! The pond you talk of is nothing compared to the ocean, which is greater and more vast than your eyes will ever see… the walls are short and stop you from being in the bigger world… the circle of light is but a tiny fraction of the enormity of the sky… come up and see the real world!"

The frog heard this, and realised that what he thought was the world was nothing but a small hole in the ground… safe, but small.

The moral is simple… the frog had a very limited exposure, but felt that he knew what the entire universe was. He was, however, completely ignorant of everything outside the well.

What I'm saying here is that yes, it's to do with my martial art… but you are so completely unaware of what that is, what is entailed in that, and how it all relates to "fighting" that these claims you're making some very odd assumptions that only have basis in your own lack of understanding and ability to comprehend what you've been told multiple times now.

Frogs cant live in an ocean. The salt water kills them.

So yes this is apt. Like the frog in the well my understanding is based in some sort of reality like the well. where I dismiss to a certain degree the fantasy of the ocean.

This is also the difference between a soldier who is real and a warrior who is fantasy.

 

[drop bear]

Do you want historical accounts, or present day ones? There are plenty of both, for the record…

Present day accounts of how mindset training would have shortened this thread by about three pages.

 

[drop bear]

Mindset is pretty much hard wired, well at least that is my opinion. I think there are a lot more people that will never develop the fighting mentality. I guess if I could risk the rude I would, but then again would be pretty stupid of me. I can't answer the question, could guess and there is no point in that. I just go n myself, which predominately is at a basic level on this site. My guess I suppose would be to peeve someone off and just basically wade in. That person would find out if they can strike and move for example, if not, their on the deck mulling over "Why the hell did I get hit"

Nature vs nurture.
there is probably a bit of grey area there.

One of my corner men mentioned that in a ring fight nobody freezes up. You get hit and you go after the guy.

If you remove choice everybody fights. This seems to me that everybody has it in them to a degree.

But i might look up the study a bit.

 

[Transk53]

Nature vs nurture.
there is probably a bit of grey area there.

One of my corner men mentioned that in a ring fight nobody freezes up. You get hit and you go after the guy.

If you remove choice everybody fights. This seems to me that everybody has it in them to a degree.

But i might look up the study a bit.

Yeah that does sense that every body has a little fight in them. That would be nature in them. I guess you still have to be hardwired to have that natural confidence to look after yourself.

 

[Blindside]

Nature vs nurture.
there is probably a bit of grey area there.

One of my corner men mentioned that in a ring fight nobody freezes up. You get hit and you go after the guy.

If you remove choice everybody fights. This seems to me that everybody has it in them to a degree.

But i might look up the study a bit.

But anybody who is getting into a ring with a corner has already been mentally prepared for the match, or had better be or the training they received must have sucked. Stick a newb off the streets guy who has never been in a fight before in that same ring and you could very likely see a freeze or flight.

 

[Tez3]

Frogs cant live in an ocean. The salt water kills them.

QUOTE]

Saltwater frogs. Saltwater frogs exhibit water conservation Biodiversity Science