Sport vs. Street

[Transk53]

What of the videos we can find of people delivering TKD kicks to defend themselves? It wouldn't be my first choice, but it can be effective in the right situation.

Vidoes are what they are. Flashy moves. Kick you are telegraphing as always, knees are under the radar, thus setting up, and shock value.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This will do a much better job than I ever could.

Thinking like a Criminal (podcast) | Iain Abernethy

Okay, that discusses the criminal's mindset, and the approach to fighting in self-defense/self-protection vs. competition. He makes excellent points, but I don't hear him saying anywhere that the same punches, etc. used in competition won't work in defensive situations. He makes points about awareness (not a physical skill), baiting (not a physical skill), escape (some new physical skills), multiple attackers (maybe some new physical skills), the different "goal" (not a physical skill), the the differential effectiveness of flash (physical skills, though I disagree with his assertion that flashy is highly useful in competition), the difference in use of guard (physical skill, if you accept that this is different than how hands are used during close engagement in competition), dealing with trained fighters (no specific physical skills mentioned, the difference between defensive application vs. competition (only a few physical skills mentioned, and most of those can actually be useful in self-defense, though would be of less importance in that context), and why highly skilled fighters can be taken out (no mention of specific physical skills, mostly about things like awareness and surprise).

None of those points appears to exclude large swaths of physical skills/techniques from the useful repertoire. He does overstate some of the points, as we all tend to do when presenting our side. His best point, and one I've made before, is that a criminal attacker is not a lesser version of a trained fighter, but a different animal. This is one of the points I think he overstates, but I agree with it in concept. He actually says in the closing of that podcast that there are a lot of commonalities in the physical skills.

(On a side note, I couldn't find a way to subscribe to his podcast, so it would show in my Podcasts app. Grumble...)

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Vidoes are what they are. Flashy moves. Kick you are telegraphing as always, knees are under the radar, thus setting up, and shock value.

I'm not talking about demonstration videos. I'm talking about videos of people actually using high kicks (head) to take people out. If you're talking about spinning/jumping kicks, etc., those don't get used in most sparring competition much, either.

 

[Tez3]

though I disagree with his assertion that flashy is highly useful in competition

Oh it is, loud kiais are known to win points, exaggerated moves look 'exciting' and coupled with those loud noises make it look like you are aggressive striking your opponent. It's actually quite sad.

(On a side note, I couldn't find a way to subscribe to his podcast, so it would show in my Podcasts app. Grumble...)

Iain Abernethy | The practical application of Karate

sign up for his newsletters and forum too.

 

[Paul_D]

I don't hear him saying anywhere that the same punches, etc. used in competition won't work in defensive situations.

He's not, no one is, no one would. I don't even know where you've got this idea from.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Oh it is, loud kiais are known to win points, exaggerated moves look 'exciting' and coupled with those loud noises make it look like you are aggressive striking your opponent. It's actually quite sad.

Okay, I agree with that. I'm referring more to the harde-contact competitions. I think MMA makes the best argument in this area. Flashy isn't terribly useful there in most cases. There are a few examples where it has been surprising (like the high jumping kick off the fence), but those come back to bite people who use them, too.

Iain Abernethy | The practical application of Karate

sign up for his newsletters and forum too.

Unfortunately, that link doesn't work for subscribing from the app, nor does the RSS feed at the bottom of his page. I've sent him an email - perhaps he has a solution.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

He's not, no one is, no one would. I don't even know where you've got this idea from.

That was my point in my earlier post. There's an overlap in the physical skills. Most of the physical skills used in competition have application in defensive use.

 

[Tez3]

Flashy isn't terribly useful there in most cases. There are a few examples where it has been surprising (like the high jumping kick off the fence), but those come back to bite people who use them, too.

Oh but flashy is very good in MMA...for selling tickets to fanboys. It may be no good for an actual fight but promoters dearly love a flashy fighter, they divide opinion causing talk which is publicity by another name. Some will come to see the flashy fighter fail others to see what they think is a great fighter, it's a win-win for promoters the fighters not so much but like a good many things in the entertainment industry the actual people who earn those promoters don't really matter.

Unfortunately, that link doesn't work for subscribing from the app, nor does the RSS feed at the bottom of his page. I've sent him an email - perhaps he has a solution.

I expect he will, unless sleep deprivation from the new baby gets in the way lol.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Oh but flashy is very good in MMA...for selling tickets to fanboys. It may be no good for an actual fight but promoters dearly love a flashy fighter, they divide opinion causing talk which is publicity by another name. Some will come to see the flashy fighter fail others to see what they think is a great fighter, it's a win-win for promoters the fighters not so much but like a good many things in the entertainment industry the actual people who earn those promoters don't really matter.

Okay, that's a valid point. I'm talking more from the point of winning in competition. There's value to the business, and to the fighter, in being flashy (income, regardless of outcome). There's not much value for winning. There are some exceptions (some of the Kyokushin moves) that look flashy and can also be useful, but I'd put those in the "use very sparingly" container for MMA competition, as well.

I expect he will, unless sleep deprivation from the new baby gets in the way lol.

I missed that they have a new baby. I look forward to sleep-deprived hallucinations showing up in a future podcast.

 

[FriedRice]

Yeah whatever.

Thanks for agreeing. I love you.

 

[FriedRice]

Yes they can be argued, but it's still not an LEOs job to make those decisions or arguments, you posted that video in an attempt to support your claim of that.

Incorrect. The video showed that the LEO's honored a statute that they perceived to have existed, and therefor enforced it, which is their job.

 

[FriedRice]

Wasn't a woman, and I don't larp. For the record I have had someone hit me in the back from behind with a golf club robbed me of $6 and a cassette tape. To be honest I don't practice martial arts for self defense I practice for peace of mind I got enough broken bones and injuries, I left all that street life in my past but i can comment that a ring and an altercation are different, just like I posted that video of the guy getting stabbed just two different worlds. Have a nice day

That's nice. But why do all of your personal experiences of street fights and whatever it is that you consider "that street life" that you "left in your past".....trump all of my personal experiences of street fighting, self defense, gang rumbles, etc.? Are you somehow the final authority on the exact definition of what Street Fighting is?

 

[FriedRice]

Do you listen to yourself?

Do you?

 

[FriedRice]

Show me where I said I had "the only true definition". I simply pointed out that an agreed fight is not the same as self-defense. If you have a position that is counter to that, make it, support it, and we can discuss it. Otherwise, you're just throwing insults for the sake of trolling.

Not all street fights are necessarily, mutually agreed upon, next.

 

[FriedRice]

Just because cops don't stop something, that doesn't change the law. Sometimes cops use their judgment on what to enforce and what not to (like when they decide which speeder to pull over on a highway where almost nobody is going under the limit).

No technology exist yet where each cop can pull over and ticket more than 1 car at a time.

 

[FriedRice]

Yes, you are. Or at least, I suspect you are.
If it were necessary to kill someone in order to be the one walking away from a fight, would you? If so, then you're in a life or death fight. Sure, at least 99% of the time you won't have to. But if you're willing to kill, then it's a life or death fight, even if you're in that happy majority of cases that provide more than just one option.
I don't have a stack of bodies (one quadriplegic, but no deaths), but if I'm in a real fight, then yes, killing is an option.
You like to act as if being willing to kill means you always do. And that's just silly. It's merely one of many possible results. And, generally speaking, the least common.

Willing to kill? Have you ever beaten the hell out of someone before? Usually when they're done... they'd go into fetal position and cover up. Or they just get knock the F out and lie there motionless. Are you saying that you're willing to, say, stomp on the head of an unconscious man, on the ground, repeatedly until his skull cracks and brain oozes out so he'd die? Or something like that? Is this what, "willing to kill" means? Why can't you just walk away after the KO?

Otherwise, you're just throwing strikes to the best of your capabilities, up the point where the fight/conflict, ceases....and a KO is almost a guaranteed stoppage in the street, which makes it sound really a lot like a sports fight in the ring.

 

[FriedRice]

I actually agree with this. Self defence has nothing to do with martial skills. For example, a TKD kick! Just gonna get your knee fucked

Are you serious? "A TKD kick"? This is almost like saying, "I train UFC"...but usually when people say it, they're joking about it and especially when not trying to make a technical argument.

 

[Martial_Kumite]

Are you serious? "A TKD kick"? This is almost like saying, "I train UFC"...but usually when people say it, they're joking about it and especially when not trying to make a technical argument.

Her is a video of a former TKD champion using a kick to disable an aggressor. Say what you will, but it looked like it hurt.

 

[Martial_Kumite]

Also (This part is directed to the discussion, not to anyone specific.), on the subject of martial arts usefulness in self-defence, the training from (most) martial arts can come down to knowing where, and what to hit to get the desired result. It can make the difference between having to punch (or kick) the attacker once, vs having to randomly punch many times. I know that there are 1 hit ko's ( youtube is full of them), but the majority of those fighters are not trained in position. They simply know "If I hit here hard enough, something will happen."
So, I would think of Martial arts as a scope for a gun. You don't need it to pull the trigger, but it makes hitting the target the First time a lot easier.

 

[Paul_D]

Incorrect. The video showed that the LEO's honored a statute that they perceived to have existed, and therefor enforced it, which is their job.

Which is related to the point you were originally trying to argue in what way?