Speak your mind

[Dirty Dog]

Well, lucky you.

I don't really think luck has anything to do with it.
What views or opinions do you hold that you find yourself censoring? I think that's the real issue.

 

[Transk53]

For me (a white heterosexual male like me) what Transk53 said rings true. All three of traits mean I need to carefully censor myself before ANY words come out of my mouth. I mean, God forbid I ever complain about how poor I am. That seems to get an INCREDIBLE backlash in the wrong company.

Yes exactly fella, so much of that statement translates to what it is like to live in England these days on so many social and religious grounds. PC gone mad over here. For example a local school was told not to promote the christian version of xmas because it would offend muslims. In reality most of them fell over backwards laughing at the absurdity of it. The school was not allowed to put on a nativity play at xmas. Modern day Britain lol

 

[wingchun100]

I don't really think luck has anything to do with it.
What views or opinions do you hold that you find yourself censoring? I think that's the real issue.

I just said above: if I were to say something about how poor or broke I am, I would get slammed with a comeback of, "Oh shut up. You are white. And whites are still the most privileged people." Yeah, tell it to my family when I have to figure out what I have around my house that I can sell off to buy groceries. How "privileged" can I be if I am in this position?

I'm not saying I get this comeback all the time, but even hearing it once is annoying. Not everyone with my skin color is a rich white devil who has oppressed everyone else.

 

[Steve]

Couple of thoughts.

1: You can always speak your mind. But, you are also accountable for your words, and there may be consequences.
2: Other people are entitled to their opinions of you.
3: Context matters, and just because you CAN say something, doesn't mean you SHOULD say that thing.
4: Courtesy and respect are not Political Correctness. Conversely, discourtesy and disrespect are just that. If someone calls you out for being an a-hole, see points 1-3.
5: Your perception of the world is the one that is the most flattering to you. If there's a victim of injustice, it's you. If there's a problem that matters, it is your problem. If there is someone who was misunderstood because the other guy should have known better, it's poor you. And to add some weight to this, you will project to the entire group. It's not JUST you who is misunderstood. It's all white/black/asian/Welsh/Irish/Latino guys. It's not JUST you who is a victim of Political Correctness. It's every xtian/muslim/hindu.

Ultimately, say what you want to say. Speak your mind. But don't be surprised if your words have some consequences.

 

[wingchun100]

Couple of thoughts.

1: You can always speak your mind. But, you are also accountable for your words, and there may be consequences.
2: Other people are entitled to their opinions of you.
3: Context matters, and just because you CAN say something, doesn't mean you SHOULD say that thing.
4: Courtesy and respect are not Political Correctness. Conversely, discourtesy and disrespect are just that. If someone calls you out for being an a-hole, see points 1-3.
5: Your perception of the world is the one that is the most flattering to you. If there's a victim of injustice, it's you. If there's a problem that matters, it is your problem. If there is someone who was misunderstood because the other guy should have known better, it's poor you. And to add some weight to this, you will project to the entire group. It's not JUST you who is misunderstood. It's all white/black/asian/Welsh/Irish/Latino guys. It's not JUST you who is a victim of Political Correctness. It's every xtian/muslim/hindu.

Ultimately, say what you want to say. Speak your mind. But don't be surprised if your words have some consequences.

That's just it though: sometimes there are things people say that are DEFINITELY offensive, but then there are occasions where you may say something that you just don't know will make someone mad. It all depends on their values and beliefs. If they vary enough, then it may come off as offensive to them.

I'm trying to think of examples, but can't off-hand. I know they have happened to me though. I've had occasions where someone wound up mad over something I said or the way I said it, and it was NOT my intention.

 

[Dinkydoo]

****, didn't mean to thank your post - damn fat thumbs!

I'll remember that when we are allowed to celebrate St Georges day then, and without fear of being told to take down English flags from public buildings etc.. Propping up the English economy, think you will find it is a UK economy dude. Yeah, it centralized towards Westminster I will agree, but the Scottish independence runs deeper than just the economies. Hell, you are entitled to you're opinion, I do not disagree with that, but kind of understand the situation better!

Not sure where abouts you live but where I am we'd never be asked to take a Scotland Flag down on St Andrews day - in Scotland. There might but trouble from a minority of idiots if tricolours or St George's crosses where on display during the Ireland and England national holidays (in Scotland) but I don't think that's representative of our society in general - nor do I think the Politically Correct brigade are. Both are extreme opposites of the scale and in reality I'd say that UK society - out with a select few impoverished areas -generally resides pretty close to the middle.

I'll not drag this into a Scottish I dependence debate because there is so much more to it but I don't really get your final statement, what is there to understand better?

Really, I think people just like to have something to get outraged about and in some cases - I'm not inferring yours - that is fuelled by a 'hidden' racist/xenophobic/sexist agenda. I don't know how many times I've heard people "disgusted" that we weren't allowed to sing 'bla bla black sheep', put up Christmas decorations at work anymore incase it offended any non-white non-Christian UK citizens and that women are still paid less than men in comparable positions of employment, simply because they are female....... Then when challenged, people can't provide a non-misinterpreted, credible source that supports their claim. Go figure.

 

[Steve]

That's just it though: sometimes there are things people say that are DEFINITELY offensive, but then there are occasions where you may say something that you just don't know will make someone mad. It all depends on their values and beliefs. If they vary enough, then it may come off as offensive to them.

I'm trying to think of examples, but can't off-hand. I know they have happened to me though. I've had occasions where someone wound up mad over something I said or the way I said it, and it was NOT my intention.

We all step in it through ignorance. I have a friend whose son is autistic. I was doing something and made a stupid mistake. I said something like, "I must have taken the short bus to work today." My friend was offended. Now he has a choice. He can tell me or not. He's offended. That's done. My friend fortunately felt comfortable enough to say to me quietly, "Hey Steve. My son rides the short bus."

That's it. I get it now. I said something that offended my friend and now I KNOW it. I'm aware of it and so I have a choice. I can choose to disregard him, which is where ignorance becomes (IMO) willful disrespect. I could choose to continue using the joke, knowing that it's offensive to my friend. It's really that simple.

The other side of the issue are those times when you've been offended. People say things that are offensive to me sometimes. I have a choice. I can choose to tell them or choose not to tell them.

Bottom line is that you can only control you. You can say what you want to whomever you like. But your words have consequences and you are not entitled to say what you want without repercussion.

 

[Dinkydoo]

Yes exactly fella, so much of that statement translates to what it is like to live in England these days on so many social and religious grounds. PC gone mad over here. For example a local school was told not to promote the christian version of xmas because it would offend muslims. In reality most of them fell over backwards laughing at the absurdity of it. The school was not allowed to put on a nativity play at xmas. Modern day Britain lol

Haha, I honestly cannot believe you have posted this in light of my above response - I didn't read it first, honest!

Source please.

 

[wingchun100]

We all step in it through ignorance. I have a friend whose son is autistic. I was doing something and made a stupid mistake. I said something like, "I must have taken the short bus to work today." My friend was offended. Now he has a choice. He can tell me or not. He's offended. That's done. My friend fortunately felt comfortable enough to say to me quietly, "Hey Steve. My son rides the short bus."

That's it. I get it now. I said something that offended my friend and now I KNOW it. I'm aware of it and so I have a choice. I can choose to disregard him, which is where ignorance becomes (IMO) willful disrespect. I could choose to continue using the joke, knowing that it's offensive to my friend. It's really that simple.

The other side of the issue are those times when you've been offended. People say things that are offensive to me sometimes. I have a choice. I can choose to tell them or choose not to tell them.

Bottom line is that you can only control you. You can say what you want to whomever you like. But your words have consequences and you are not entitled to say what you want without repercussion.

Yes, but did you ever get the feeling that sometimes people aren't offended by what you said, but they know what you said COULD be offensive to others, and use it as a means to cause trouble for you?

EXAMPLE: I worked at a job with this guy Dave. One of the supervisors (let's call her Sue) did NOT like this guy from day one, and I could never figure out why because he was all right with me. Anyway, she overhears Dave having a conversation with another employee where he jokingly says, "Sucks to be you." The other coworker took no offense...even laughed about it. Later on, Sue has a conversation with Dave's supervisor (which they didn't realize I could overhear) in which she said, "Dave said 'sucks to be you' to that person, and I found it offensive."

Next thing you know, Dave is pulled into a tribunal-like meeting with all the administrators in the place about what he said. He tried saying that the person he was talking to was not offended, but they said, "Doesn't matter. Sue overheard you and was offended." Well, that was when the lightbulb went off in Dave's head. He said, "She has had something in for me since day one. She was NOT truly offended. This is just another way for her to bust my balls." They told him, "Too bad. You owe Sue an apology." But my man didn't buckle; he basically told them it'd be a cold day in hell first. Fortunately, one of the other admins took his side and the whole thing got dropped.

But you see, sneaky crap like this makes me wonder when a person is TRULY offended, or is pretending to be so they can stick it to someone else like that.

 

[Steve]

A little off topic, but I've always thought it would be cool to have the nativity play done. And also act out the hanukkah story of the sacking of the 2nd Temple of Jerusalem by Antiochus and the origin of the Festival of Lights. And then maybe also the origin story of Kwanzaa... which could be a little political. Heck, let's get some of the kids dressed up as druids and have them bless the yule log, for crying out loud. I don't know how popular that move would be, but I'd get a real kick out of it.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Yes, but did you ever get the feeling that sometimes people aren't offended by what you said, but they know what you said COULD be offensive to others, and use it as a means to cause trouble for you?

EXAMPLE: I worked at a job with this guy Dave. One of the supervisors (let's call her Sue) did NOT like this guy from day one, and I could never figure out why because he was all right with me. Anyway, she overhears Dave having a conversation with another employee where he jokingly says, "Sucks to be you." The other coworker took no offense...even laughed about it. Later on, Sue has a conversation with Dave's supervisor (which they didn't realize I could overhear) in which she said, "Dave said 'sucks to be you' to that person, and I found it offensive."

Next thing you know, Dave is pulled into a tribunal-like meeting with all the administrators in the place about what he said. He tried saying that the person he was talking to was not offended, but they said, "Doesn't matter. Sue overheard you and was offended." Well, that was when the lightbulb went off in Dave's head. He said, "She has had something in for me since day one. She was NOT truly offended. This is just another way for her to bust my balls." They told him, "Too bad. You owe Sue an apology." But my man didn't buckle; he basically told them it'd be a cold day in hell first. Fortunately, one of the other admins took his side and the whole thing got dropped.

But you see, sneaky crap like this makes me wonder when a person is TRULY offended, or is pretending to be so they can stick it to someone else like that.

The problem is, at least in government offices, that it does not matter if you or the person you are talking to found anything are talking to or a person that overheard your conversation perceives if.

Dave was lucky because in the current climate in state offices he would have been sent to training and likely had something put on his permanent record, and no I do not think that would be fair in the case of "Dave" if in fact "Sue" had a personal vendetta against him. The Unions would definitely be part of that issue either way

 

[Steve]

Yes, but did you ever get the feeling that sometimes people aren't offended by what you said, but they know what you said COULD be offensive to others, and use it as a means to cause trouble for you?

EXAMPLE: I worked at a job with this guy Dave. One of the supervisors (let's call her Sue) did NOT like this guy from day one, and I could never figure out why because he was all right with me. Anyway, she overhears Dave having a conversation with another employee where he jokingly says, "Sucks to be you." The other coworker took no offense...even laughed about it. Later on, Sue has a conversation with Dave's supervisor (which they didn't realize I could overhear) in which she said, "Dave said 'sucks to be you' to that person, and I found it offensive."

Next thing you know, Dave is pulled into a tribunal-like meeting with all the administrators in the place about what he said. He tried saying that the person he was talking to was not offended, but they said, "Doesn't matter. Sue overheard you and was offended." Well, that was when the lightbulb went off in Dave's head. He said, "She has had something in for me since day one. She was NOT truly offended. This is just another way for her to bust my balls." They told him, "Too bad. You owe Sue an apology." But my man didn't buckle; he basically told them it'd be a cold day in hell first. Fortunately, one of the other admins took his side and the whole thing got dropped.

But you see, sneaky crap like this makes me wonder when a person is TRULY offended, or is pretending to be so they can stick it to someone else like that.

Words have consequences, right or wrong. That's the point. Is it always just? No.

First, the situation sounds like it's full of fail. Dave and his supervisor are at odds. That's not good, and Dave should know that he's on shaky ground from the get go. You don't always get to choose your boss. The unanswered questions have to do with the contentious relationship your buddy has with his supervisor. It's likely there is a lot going on you are not aware of. Your friend is going to tell you the version most flattering to himself and least flattering to his nemesis. I would bet money that there is far more going on here than just her trying to bust his balls.

But, that said, look at the story you just told. Your dude had choices and he made them. It was more important for him to be "right" than to just suck it up and apologize. He could have done, but as you said, Dave "didn't buckle; he basically told them it'd be a cold day in hell first." He's damned lucky he didn't get fired, because at that point, were it me, I'd have a very serious discussion with Dave about his own misconduct.

It's important to distinguish between personal and professional, as well. Your friend is at work. While he may still be "free" to say what's on his mind, the stakes are a little higher with regard to consequences.

 

[wingchun100]

Words have consequences, right or wrong. That's the point. Is it always just? No.

First, the situation sounds like it's full of fail. Dave and his supervisor are at odds. That's not good, and Dave should know that he's on shaky ground from the get go. You don't always get to choose your boss. The unanswered questions have to do with the contentious relationship your buddy has with his supervisor. It's likely there is a lot going on you are not aware of. Your friend is going to tell you the version most flattering to himself and least flattering to his nemesis. I would bet money that there is far more going on here than just her trying to bust his balls.

But, that said, look at the story you just told. Your dude had choices and he made them. It was more important for him to be "right" than to just suck it up and apologize. He could have done, but as you said, Dave "didn't buckle; he basically told them it'd be a cold day in hell first." He's damned lucky he didn't get fired, because at that point, were it me, I'd have a very serious discussion with Dave about his own misconduct.

It's important to distinguish between personal and professional, as well. Your friend is at work. While he may still be "free" to say what's on his mind, the stakes are a little higher with regard to consequences.

Well, the beauty of being a State worker with a union meant he wouldn't be fired (not off the bat anyway) for telling them he wouldn't apologize. Personally, I hate this whole "third party" crap. I understand it should be used if you hear something truly offensive (for example, overhearing racist remarks), but in instances like this...where one employee was joking with another (and the other TOOK IT as a joke), it was overstepping bounds.

As for distinguishing between personal and professional, that is something NO supervisor in that place seemed to be able to do.

 

[Steve]

Well, the beauty of being a State worker with a union meant he wouldn't be fired (not off the bat anyway) for telling them he wouldn't apologize. Personally, I hate this whole "third party" crap. I understand it should be used if you hear something truly offensive (for example, overhearing racist remarks), but in instances like this...where one employee was joking with another (and the other TOOK IT as a joke), it was overstepping bounds.

As for distinguishing between personal and professional, that is something NO supervisor in that place seemed to be able to do.

A union does add some layers of complexity to the situation, but with a union involved, misconduct is a lot faster route to termination than poor performance. If your friend is being an asshat at work and his chain of command is at all competent, he's doing them a huge favor. Insubordination, disrespect and even discourtesy can be grounds for a formal reprimand through whatever progressive discipline has been agreed to under collective bargaining. The specifics, of course, depend upon the language in the contract.

 

[Steve]

As for distinguishing between personal and professional, that is something NO supervisor in that place seemed to be able to do.

I don't think I get this. Could you explain the personal/professional thing to me? What are the supervisors supposed to be distinguishing?

 

[wingchun100]

I don't think I get this. Could you explain the personal/professional thing to me? What are the supervisors supposed to be distinguishing?

You're honestly telling me you have never worked in a place where supervisors get a little TOO close to their subordinates? I mean, there's nothing wrong with being friendly but, when it means you start letting those people do whatever they want, that's when a boundary has been crossed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Steve]

You're honestly telling me you have never worked in a place where supervisors get a little TOO close to their subordinates? I mean, there's nothing wrong with being friendly but, when it means you start letting those people do whatever they want, that's when a boundary has been crossed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm trying to understand what's going on. Are you saying that "Dave" and "Sue" are too friendly?

 

[Dinkydoo]

Yes exactly fella, so much of that statement translates to what it is like to live in England these days on so many social and religious grounds. PC gone mad over here. For example a local school was told not to promote the christian version of xmas because it would offend muslims.

I would be really interested to see any evidence of this actually happening because to be frank, I'm a bit sick of hearing this kind of crap without any supporting evidence. Something like this would definitely have made The Daily Mail....can you tell me what the school is called? I'll happily take a look for any newspaper articles myself.

A public school in a 'Christian country' officially not being allowed to put on a nativity play, in the fear of offending minorities attending the school/living in the local area, is just not going to happen.

Next you'll be telling me that down south, they're not minorities anymore, and they're taking 'all our jobs'.... *rolls eyes*

 

[jks9199]

I'm trying to understand what's going on. Are you saying that "Dave" and "Sue" are too friendly?

I agree; there are at least two different sorts of problems of crossing those lines. One is the romantic/sexual harassment sort. The other is the good 'ol boy sort of thing. While there are some common elements, the two situations are different. Honestly, I think the buddies type of thing are harder to solve because they're so more deeply insinuted, and also better able to be justified. If a supervisor and subordinate have crossed the line and are dating, it's only the one pairing that has to be dealt with, and it's often much more blatant when favoritism is going on. But the buddies? That can be involve several people, and be much harder to recognize or stop.

 

[Xue Sheng]

A union does add some layers of complexity to the situation, but with a union involved, misconduct is a lot faster route to termination than poor performance. If your friend is being an asshat at work and his chain of command is at all competent, he's doing them a huge favor. Insubordination, disrespect and even discourtesy can be grounds for a formal reprimand through whatever progressive discipline has been agreed to under collective bargaining. The specifics, of course, depend upon the language in the contract.

It comes down to a couple reprimands a counseling session or 2 and then termination

I agree; there are at least two different sorts of problems of crossing those lines. One is the romantic/sexual harassment sort. The other is the good 'ol boy sort of thing. While there are some common elements, the two situations are different. Honestly, I think the buddies type of thing are harder to solve because they're so more deeply insinuted, and also better able to be justified. If a supervisor and subordinate have crossed the line and are dating, it's only the one pairing that has to be dealt with, and it's often much more blatant when favoritism is going on. But the buddies? That can be involve several people, and be much harder to recognize or stop.

Worked at an office that had both, luckily I was on the sidelines of it but it all can get really messy. And the buddy thing only lasts as long as the highest guy in the buddy chain remains. As soon as he is replaced it all goes to hell pretty quick. But until then, you're right it is hard to change