Sparring vs. Self Defense

[Danny T]

I will say the other way around, "fighting is more than just self-defense".

1. Self-defense - you only need to protect yourself not to get hurt.
2. Fighting - besides protecting yourself, you want to hurt your opponent too.

So self-defense is a subset of fighting.

- When someone tries to rape your wife, de-escalate cannot solve your problem.
- When some countries invade your country, run away also cannot solve your problem.

To train fighting is much more difficult than just to train self-defense. Not only you need to how to protect yourself, you also need to learn how to hurt your opponent.

Fighting is a form of self defense. Not all fighting is self defense and not all self defense is fighting. If you realize you and your family are in immediate physical danger and you get them out of that situation have you not defended them and protected them from that immediate danger? That is also a form of self defense and many times may be done without fighting.

As to your example of rape and invasion...yes in such a situation one may well have to fight. In such situations I'd be using a weapon which would be a different form of fighting.

 

[drop bear]

Well, most "real" attacks wouldn't happen that way. And in a self defense scenario as long as you are staying out of range and not throwing a committed attack, no response is even necessary. Keep backing up and then run when you can! Or keep backing up until the person actually launches an committed attack. I think this is why so many of these systems like SSBD can look a little "hokey" to people on video. Its because the guy feeding the strike is doing a fully committed attack, so it looks and is very "staged." But this is how you teach people the fundamentals of the system. In a seminar the goal is not to turn everyone into a "fighter" in just one weekend.

Wait a second here. So I see a threat. How about this?

I take a step back and say love off.

If he comes forward I jab him in the nose and then take another step back. If he comes forwards again, I jab him again. At some point he will give up coming forwards and I can wander off, or whatever I was doing.

I break the rules of a "real attack" so that the encounter goes the way I want it to go.

Chances are I wont even get hit in this scenario. Just free shots.

 

[drop bear]

So you do agree that self defense is more than just fighting. Thank you.
And as such there are others who train for other actions than standing and fighting like in a duel.

Being able to fight makes the rest of it easier. Gives you more options and is considerably less toxic.

 

[drop bear]

there is a break down in the conversation here between you and DB. some attacks do happen that way and some dont. DB's experience in door work gives him a view of what "real life" looks like. others of us have different experiences that give us a different view of "real life".
this conversation goes around in circles forever because we fail to define what "real life" actually is. the term is to broad and encapsulates to much. until we all start using the same terminology there can be no progress on this topic.

1. Real life looks like: A guy at a bar who drank too much who is trying to start a fight with everyone and your his next target.
2. Real life looks like: An uncle or neighbor who grooms a young girl into doing "things" she is not old enough to understand.
3. Real life looks like: A mentally disturbed person who decides the world is evil and needs to be destroyed and opens fire in a public place.
4. Real life looks like: An individual who commits attempted robbery and decides you are his victim and suddenly pulls a knife and starts stabbing you over and over.

all of these things are real life self defense but need to be approached differently and create different views in peoples minds. however people usually only focus on one type.

Just like to point out I have dealt with every one of those situations. And guys stabbed, set on fire, riots, burglarys, robberies and suicides and attempts.(sorry my psyco boy had a knife not a gun. And I had one that had covered himself in poo.)

So yes "real life" can be clamping a guy in a head lock because he wants to jump off the top story of a car park. Or setting an attack dog loose to eat him because he somehow got hold of a muffler and is swinging it around of even running down a 13 year old female shoplifter through a shopping center and arresting her without looking like a rapist.

 

[Danny T]

Being able to fight makes the rest of it easier. Gives you more options and is considerably less toxic.

Confidence in one's self does that.
The sparring one does for a contest and different self defense scenarios are different. How one uses the tactics are different. That isn't to say one who is proficient in sport fighting isn't in self defense however, most self defense isn't about being able to stand toe to toe punching and kicking someone else.

 

[KPM]

Wait a second here. So I see a threat. How about this?

I take a step back and say love off.

If he comes forward I jab him in the nose and then take another step back. If he comes forwards again, I jab him again. At some point he will give up coming forwards and I can wander off, or whatever I was doing.

I break the rules of a "real attack" so that the encounter goes the way I want it to go.

Chances are I wont even get hit in this scenario. Just free shots.

Sure! But would that step forward he takes to within your range not also essentially be a "committed attack" on his part? That's not quite the same as him springing in for a quick jab at your nose and then springing back again.

 

[drop bear]

Sure! But would that step forward he takes to within your range not also essentially be a "committed attack" on his part? That's not quite the same as him springing in for a quick jab at your nose and then springing back again.

Yeah. But I am still going to use the lessons learned sparring to control that fight.

If he hasn't done any sparring and cant deal with my jab. Tough cookies.

 

[drop bear]

Confidence in one's self does that.
The sparring one does for a contest and different self defense scenarios are different. How one uses the tactics are different. That isn't to say one who is proficient in sport fighting isn't in self defense however, most self defense isn't about being able to stand toe to toe punching and kicking someone else.

It really is.

If I have an argument with this guy.

It will be easier than if I have an argument with this guy.

Even the verbal bit.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

rape and invasion...yes in such a situation one may well have to fight. In such situations I'd be using a weapon which would be a different form of fighting.

This is why the end goal of the CMA is to learn how to use a traditional weapon effectively. The open hand fight is not the end goal.

 

[geezer]

Weapons are the end goal of TCMA? You sure? I havent seen much practial use of weapons in your art of Schuai Chiao, John.

 

[geezer]

This is why the end goal of the CMA is to learn how to use a traditional weapon effectively. The open hand fight is not the end goal.

Whoah! That's some crazy 80s hair! Makes me think of this...

But at least this guy has a rifle and bayonet. Take that over that Chinese pole arm any day.

 

[geezer]

Oh! Oh! I got it! Big Hair is the end goal of all Martial Arts.

So what about the pros and cons of big hair. ...or any hair? We live in an era of the shaved head in martial arts, and we all know what a liability long hair can be in a fight. But what about the uses of hair in self defense, eh?

 

[now disabled]

Whoah! That's some crazy 80s hair! Makes me think of this...

But at least this guy has a rifle and bayonet. Take that over that Chinese pole arm any day.

I'm sure the Coldsteam guard will be very pleased to hear you want his rifle mind you by the look of the flash suppressor I'd recommend you just take the Bayonet as the SA80 is only a 5.56mm lol not exactly the best so to speak

 

[jobo]

So you do agree that self defense is more than just fighting. Thank you.
And as such there are others who train for other actions than standing and fighting like in a duel.


Agreed.

Well maybe, but not that much more, if your just going to rehash paulds argument, that self defence covers everythibg from wasp sqashing, escaping earth quakes, then fighting is only a very minor part,, and you need to stock up on antibiotics, anti venom, uzis a panic room a bomb shelter and quite pissibly an escapee helicopter,

If your sugesting that it inckudes recognising danger before it punches you on the nose, thats fair comment,. But for all sorts of reasons you cant always do that or change location quick eniugh to excape, in which case it often comes down to physically defending your self, so that is a very important part, you can take ut further and say that the fitness, co ordination agility you gain in having a Fighting ability could well help, in excaping a fire, a flood, the police, getting someone out of a hole or a river etal. so fight training helps all round, even if Its kuNg fu kicking a rattle snake or a rabid pit bull

 

[geezer]

Well maybe, but not that much more, if your just going to rehash paul's argument, that self defence covers everything from wasp squashing...

Awareness, avoidance, de-escalation, escape ...then Physical Defense as a last resort. That's my dogma.

Now I'm not sure about how to go about de-escalation with wasps, but I definitely recommend awareness, avoidance and escape before trying to swat them. And that goes double for the wild bees we have around here. Mostly the "Aficanized" strain. You swat one of those little gang bangers and they release a scent... and all their homeys will come after you.

 

[geezer]

I'm sure the Coldsteam guard will be very pleased to hear you want his rifle mind you by the look of the flash suppressor I'd recommend you just take the Bayonet as the SA80 is only a 5.56mm lol not exactly the best so to speak

Actually, If I were to take anything, I'd choose that bear-skin hat just for the awesomness!

 

[now disabled]

Actually, If I were to take anything, I'd choose that bear-skin hat just for the awesomness!

Lol i'd recommend buying one as ummm the pea shooter they carrying when they are on guard esp at Buck house is actually loaded and the bayonet is real to .....there have been a few cases of tourists trying to umm either pinch or even touch a guardsmans bearskin when he was on guard and well how shall we put it ........tourists ended up with brown stains lol as the gaurdsmen really get a tad pissed off as one it there uninform ...two they would get charged if it got pinched or damaged....three they get it all the time ....four after you been standing on guard for 4 hours or more you do tend to get a little short in the temper stakes lol

 

[geezer]

Lol i'd recommend buying one as ummm the pea shooter they carrying when they are on guard esp at Buck house is actually loaded and the bayonet is real to .....there have been a few cases of tourists trying to umm either pinch or even touch a guardsmans bearskin when he was on guard and well how shall we put it ........tourists ended up with brown stains lol as the gaurdsmen really get a tad pissed off as one it there uninform ...two they would get charged if it got pinched or damaged....three they get it all the time ....four after you been standing on guard for 4 hours or more you do tend to get a little short in the temper stakes lol

Oh, if you really have to have one, you can get cheap copies on ebay for $15:
Royal British Queens Guard Bearskin Beefeater Fancy Dress English Costume Hat | eBay

If you were going to steal one, I imagine that the penalty would be really stiff, and even after you got out of your legal difficulties, everyone would know what a capital J Jackass you were. Not a good decision.... Although, now that you have brought up the idea, ...you might be able to lift one with a really good drone?

People have done things just as dumb or even dumber already. Just watch the following at about 4:32:

 

[drop bear]

Lol i'd recommend buying one as ummm the pea shooter they carrying when they are on guard esp at Buck house is actually loaded and the bayonet is real to .....there have been a few cases of tourists trying to umm either pinch or even touch a guardsmans bearskin when he was on guard and well how shall we put it ........tourists ended up with brown stains lol as the gaurdsmen really get a tad pissed off as one it there uninform ...two they would get charged if it got pinched or damaged....three they get it all the time ....four after you been standing on guard for 4 hours or more you do tend to get a little short in the temper stakes lol

 

[drop bear]

Awareness, avoidance, de-escalation, escape ...then Physical Defense as a last resort. That's my dogma.

Now I'm not sure about how to go about de-escalation with wasps, but I definitely recommend awareness, avoidance and escape before trying to swat them. And that goes double for the wild bees we have around here. Mostly the "Aficanized" strain. You swat one of those little gang bangers and they release a scent... and all their homeys will come after you.

Yes. But people escalate to physical when there is a threat.

The better you can fight the less need for you to feel threatened.