sparring: the secret ingredient to becoming a fighter?

[ShotoNoob]

I realise this thread is about sparring but I think a little reality check is needed here. I don't mean for this to be a personal attack on anyone or their style, so I hope it doesn't come across that way.

|
You have a strong opinion. So do I....

Although I respect your love and belief in your art , mate, I think if you go out on a Friday night and try that with most any testosterone fuelled douche you'll be the one heading to the doctors. Let alone against those used to full contact, alive training.

|
I don't do full contact. That is NOT the traditional karate model. The MMA fighter I just mentioned is Jamie Varner.... who trained just like you talk about and now realizes it WAS A BIG, IRREVERSIBLE MISTAKE. KEY WORD = IRREVERSIBLE....

And no chance when it comes to mma.

Please see my last statement....

Life isn't like the Kwoon/dojo and training needs to reflect that or acknowledge the realities of actual violence, whether sport or defending against an aggressor.My opinion, only.

|
The skills I've developed are spoken to in the "Mental State of Mind" T. If you don't believe in them, then don't....
|
The limitations of Traditional karate training are there, including that it does not teach to be a reality-based self defense expert or professional bodyguard. This has been addressed clearly in a number of forums, including MT.
|
What TMA does give you, if trained true to standards, is the foundational ability for someone like me to meet someone of your philosophy and prevail. Whatever happens can only be known when it happens. Violence, while potentially deadly, has no mind.
|
Just my opinion....
|
BTW: I have gone on record supporting the MMA experience as valid reality-testing for traditional karateka. Please follow my full opinions....
BTW: I have experienced sparring partners losing their temper, causing injury to me including broken bones. After that happened once, I've always prevailed in FINISHING THE FIGHT IN ALL THOSE CASES.... Not just my opinion....

 

[Buka]

|
For instance looking @ your example. You tag me--Maybe not. I am very hard to hit.

My friend, everybody gets hit. That's why they call it a fight.

 

[ShotoNoob]

My friend, everybody gets hit. That's why they call it a fight.

|
I do get hit. Just not very often. I'm hard to hit. I have traditional karate BLOCKING skills that others say are only strikes. NO, I can block. Plus other stuffffff.
|
Now if I could just spell JiuJutsu....
|
P.S. Plus you'll probably get countered within the instant. Shotokan karate has a set of mental kumite concepts for this in it's syllabus. Which does NOT include the modern Kyo practice of just wading & leaning into opponent with alternating hands, feet, etc.... There's nothing mental in that....

 

[VT_Vectis]

|
You have a strong opinion. So do I....


|
I don't do full contact. That is NOT the traditional karate model. The MMA fighter I just mentioned is Jamie Varner.... who trained just like you talk about and now realizes it WAS A BIG, IRREVERSIBLE MISTAKE. KEY WORK = IRREVERSIBLE....

Please see my last statement....

|
The skills I've developed are spoken to in the "Mental State of Mind" T. If you don't believe in them, then don't....
|
The limitations of Traditional karate training are there, including that it does not teach to be a reality-based self defense expert or professional bodyguard. This has been addressed clearly in a number of forums, including MT.
|
What TMA does give you, if trained true to standards, is the foundational ability for someone like me to meet someone of your philosophy and prevail. Whatever happens can only be known when it happens. Violence, while potentially deadly, has no mind.
|
Just my opinion...

Ok, if you view your training that way it's all good but I think you should look into Geoff Thompson and his reason for changing the way he trained and viewed his Karate, if you've not done so before.

However, if you think your training gives you an advantage without preparing you to get punched in the face you really are in for a shock.

Violence may not have a mind but it's got two fists, two feet, a head-butt, and little respect for your paper tigers.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Ok, if you view your training that way it's all good but I think you should look into Geoff Thompson and his reason for changing the way he trained and viewed his Karate, if you've not done so before

|
I've looked at him some time ago, understand him to be very reputable & reality-based orientation. I'm more foundational.

However, if you think your training gives you an advantage without preparing you to get punched in the face you really are in for a shock.

|
NO, it might be you are in for a shock.....

Violence may not have a mind but it's got two fists, two feet, a head-butt, and little respect for your paper tigers.

|
Mind beats no mind.... that's essence of shaolin kung fu(s).... i'd NEVER try to beat a bona-fide Shaolin fighting monk.... 'cause I wouldn't be shocked when defeat so overwhelmingly came....
|
Paper tigers to keyboard warriors signing out.....

Violence may not have a mind but it's got two fists, two feet, a head-butt, and little respect for your paper tigers.

|
P.S. Give Jamie Varner a ring. You'll cheer him up with the impossible.... I'm sure his family will appreciate your empty platitudes even more....

 

[ShotoNoob]

Been meaning to head over to the "conversation is sparring" T, now overdue....

 

[Hyoho]

How can ippon mean "one step"? Ippon means one. One step is 'Ipo'. I guess its just confusion from arts in other countries that misuse Japanese language and latch on to Japanese grading sytems wearing lots of badges and stripy uniforms.

 

[Tez3]

I realise this thread is about sparring but I think a little reality check is needed here. I don't mean for this to be a personal attack on anyone or their style, so I hope it doesn't come across that way.

Although I respect your love and belief in your art , mate, I think if you go out on a Friday night and try that with most any testosterone fuelled douche you'll be the one heading to the doctors. Let alone against those used to full contact, alive training. And no chance when it comes to mma. Life isn't like the Kwoon/dojo and training needs to reflect that or acknowledge the realities of actual violence, whether sport or defending against an aggressor.
My opinion, only.

I agree with you.

People with their teeth knocked out don't hit back

Oh they certainly do. I've seen it a few times, I've had my own tooth knocked out and carried on sparring it wasn't a fight even. I'm not the toughest person going but it didn't hurt at the time, didn't realise it was out.

There's sparring, there's fighting, there's brawling and there's street violence ( not 'fighting') all of which are different. What you think works in sparring and fighting won't necessarily work if you are caught up in street violence.

 

[VT_Vectis]

|
I've looked at him some time ago, understand him to be very reputable & reality-based orientation. I'm more foundational.


|
NO, it might be you are in for a shock.....


|
Mind beats no mind.... that's essence of shaolin kung fu(s).... i'd NEVER try to beat a bona-fide Shaolin fighting monk.... 'cause I wouldn't be shocked when defeat so overwhelmingly came....
|
Paper tigers to keyboard warriors signing out.....

|
P.S. Give Jamie Varner a ring. You'll cheer him up with the impossible.... I'm sure his family will appreciate your empty platitudes even more....

Oh I'm shocked, alright ha.

What's impossible in what I've written? What does Jamie Varner have to do with it?

It's fully documented that anyone engaged in contact sports is at risk of brain damage via repeated impacts over time. Tennis players get elbow trouble, so what? Hazard of the game.

A few years ago they released a study that speculated on the damage sustained by players repeatedly heading the ball during football games (soccer to all you non Brits). But that is just as irrelevant as your comment.

Should I stop training semi/full contact on the off chance I get brain damage, and leave myself unready for an encounter where someone is going to want to ,at least, put my lights out if not mortally wound me? Or worse?

Bearing in mind that most people unused to being hit have an inability to react after the first blow received...

Will your no-mind intercept a "sucker punch" or a blow from behind? Maybe some times you will but what about the others?

I train in Ving Tsun and we train sensitivity to allow ourselves to react without thinking but I don't rely on being able to parry/intercept all that comes; I need to know I can take a few hits and be able to function and, hopefully , conquer/subdue the assailant.

But hey, that's my view, you have yours and "never the twain shall meet".
Good luck to you in your MA journey, mate.

 

[ShotoNoob]

A few years ago they released a study that speculated on the damage sustained by players repeatedly heading the ball during football games (soccer to all you non Brits). But that is just as irrelevant as your comment.

|
Quite the contrary.... it's PRECISELY WHAT'S RELEVANT TO A MENTAL DISCIPLINE.

Should I stop training semi/full contact on the off chance I get brain damage, and leave myself unready for an encounter where someone is going to want to ,at least, put my lights out if not mortally wound me? Or worse?

|
The tradeoffs inherent in your approach, the decision is entirely up to you......

Bearing in mind that most people unused to being hit have an inability to react after the first blow received...]

|
Yes that's right. But only because most martial art practitioners fail to engage the teachings of the historic Masters that traditional martial arts is a mental endeavor over a physical one. We have T's here @ MT speaking directly to this issue....
|
I've also acknowledged that reality training should be embraced by traditional martial artists, in the manner that is non-injurious in their perspective. Risk of permanent, then debilitating injury is a critical consideration....

Will your no-mind intercept a "sucker punch" or a blow from behind? Maybe some times you will but what about the others?

|
The fault in your statement is that you're first finding fault. Common among roughneck fighters.... If I get a concussion from a sucker punch, you can get a concussion from a sucker punch. You intimate that experiencing repeated blows make you more resistive. This is contrary to medical evidence that same is cumulative. This is also made clear by Master's in the Asian arts.... recognizing this long ago from their intensive study of human function.

I train in Ving Tsun and we train sensitivity to allow ourselves to react without thinking

|
Well Ving Tsun is much more sophisticated a TMA style than the traditional karate I practice, IMO. Yet contrary to your statement, for Ving Tsun to be Ving Tsun that the Chinese Masters created, the mental discipline required, that is the thinking demanded is on a higher level than my traditional karate requires.

but I don't rely on being able to parry/intercept all that comes; I need to know I can take a few hits and be able to function and, hopefully , conquer/subdue the assailant.

|
As i've said I'm all in favor of reality testing. We get that anyway at our school, same with other schools because your sparring partner makes an unintended mistake, OR loses their cool, gets angry and tries to beat you up.... happens...
|
And you are wise to be prepared to take hits. Traditional karate also trains for this, just not like you intimate. The real wisdom in your pragmatic training to take hits, however, stems from the weakness in your foundation....to react without thinking. The traditional karateka strives to outhink the opponent's reactions, which you state you can't do..... THAT'S IT....

But hey, that's my view, you have yours and "never the twain shall meet".
Good luck to you in your MA journey, mate.

|
And your view is correct by the principles you train. Your approach is a valid way to train & prepare for actual fighting. Carry on....