Chi Sau vs Sparring

[brothershaw]

From my experience and also observation of those more skilled than me, chi sau at least in wing chun has a certain structure to it thats not there in sparring. Yes you can kick and get hit but its still different . Coming from 7 star mantis the chi sau you do is probably different ( not better or worse).

Actually chi sau for wing chun is not "free fighting", at least not in my school, maybe in other schools or other lineages.
So based on what you are saying we are talking about differnt things.

To digress in the fmas there are various contact drills siimiliar to chi sau, you look for openings, you could hit or trap etc.( with sticks, knives or empty hands ) but no matter how good you get at them everybody knows they are not actually sparring or fighting.

Also I agree with eyebeam, lol.

 

[7starmantis]

Both sticking and push hands are all about cross-hands range. Cross-hands is funny, in that it's the range you'll be in for the least amount of time, but what you do there can make or break the whole thing. It's the door you do "in" to strike close or grapple or "out" to kick or use longer hand techniques. But of you cannot apply any of this decisively, then your ability to manipulate this range doesn't matter much. Anybody who trains cross-hands/trapping distance a lot needs to spar to learn how ephemeral that range actually is.

Finally, you need to know how to take a punch and keep on going. It's that simple.

Very true, but the "chi sau" we do does not start from cross hands. See, each person is showing their own assumptions to what chi sau is. Your assuming its starting from cross hands, is limiting your ability to decisively apply things, and doesn't teach taking a punch. What I'm trying to do is actually get a definition of what chi sau is and what sparring is for the course of this discussion. See, the range of trapping is only ephemeral if you dont really have the principles of chi sau (sticking). If you have that skill set down, you can extend the life of your close range to almost an infinite level. You say those who practice that distance alot need to spar. What exactly would you define "spar" to mean in that sense? If there is one thing I would say our chi sau teaches very well, it would be taking a punch and keeping going.

Then you're asking a trick question, really, because Chi Sau with hard contact techniques, takedowns and full footwork is what most folks call "sparring." What you're actually asking is:

"How does sparring from one starting (cross-hands) position vary from sparring from another position?"

I'm glad you said that. Your almost exactly right. Its not a trick, but what I consider chi sau is remarkably close to what others consider sparring. That is why I am trying to get people to define the words "sparring" and "chi sau" in this discussion. So far no one has posted anything to define either or set either apart from each other. We just keep using the words almost interchangeably.

I'm not asking what you said, because chi sau to me is not starting from cross hands position, so thats incorrect. I'm simply asking what the difference is between the words, in the sense of this thread.

7sm

 

[eyebeams]

If your Chi Sau does not necessarily have any form of arm to arm contact and includes the full range of fighting, then it's your name for sparring, really. Otherwise:

1) You have prearranged movements, with or without footwork.

2) Or you start with a base set of arranged movements, with or without footwork.

3) Or you start from a default position, with or without footwork.

"Chi Sau" is a meaningful term outside of your art when it's the first two. When it's the third and you have the full range of options, it's sparring.

As for how long trapping range lasts, I don't believe it's really desireable to extend it. I want to gain a decisive advantage and deal with the opponent, not prolong the fight. Compared with the time it takes to match rhythm and probe at long range, or apply submissions locks and throws at close range*, trapping range is, in my opinion, pretty ephemeral. It's important, but brief. The again, I look at this stuff as a way to immediately take the role of aggressor away from the attacker and give it to myself, and not from a strictly defensive mindset.

*Yes, you might say some of this is at trapping range, but once you apply the technique, you're "through the door."

 

[7starmantis]

If your Chi Sau does not necessarily have any form of arm to arm contact and includes the full range of fighting, then it's your name for sparring, really. Otherwise:

1) You have prearranged movements, with or without footwork.

2) Or you start with a base set of arranged movements, with or without footwork.

3) Or you start from a default position, with or without footwork.

"Chi Sau" is a meaningful term outside of your art when it's the first two. When it's the third and you have the full range of options, it's sparring.

OK, I'm glad we got that settled. See, chi sau to me fullfills everything "saprring" does, but also goes quite a bit further. To me, sparring has a stigma of using pads, and genrally devoid of technique. Grantit, thats really generalizing and just semantics, but its always stayed with me. True sparring, I can see the need for, but our chi sau accomplishes all of those good points plus more. We learn all of the full contact aspects that sparring teaches and also the feel, sticking, and fluid movement of chi sau. Practicing it both full speed and very slow.
So I guess we can say that chi sau and sparring can be used interchangeably.

As for how long trapping range lasts, I don't believe it's really desireable to extend it. I want to gain a decisive advantage and deal with the opponent, not prolong the fight. Compared with the time it takes to match rhythm and probe at long range, or apply submissions locks and throws at close range*, trapping range is, in my opinion, pretty ephemeral. It's important, but brief. The again, I look at this stuff as a way to immediately take the role of aggressor away from the attacker and give it to myself, and not from a strictly defensive mindset.

*Yes, you might say some of this is at trapping range, but once you apply the technique, you're "through the door."

I see what your saying, my view of it is just a bit off I guess. In mantis we really heavily focus on trapping even at the closest of ranges. Thats why I immediately posted about extending that range, which I guess would really be "close range". I guess its the mantis bias, sorry. We call taking the agressor away, "stealing the attack", which I love, so I completely understand what your saying about that. I'm not meaning to sound like I'm coming from a strictly defensive standpoint, thats really not mantis at all.

7sm

 

[brothershaw]

I think your just not experienced in advanced chi sau. It is about endurance, taking a hit, footwork, etc. How does what you do in sparring differ from what you do in chi sau, specifically? See, I think its just a matter of not defining chi sau. The chi sau we do is full contact, you get hit, grabbed, thrown, locked, grappled, etc.

Your definition, learnign the "ebb and flow" is the beginners drill for chi sau, not advanced free fighting chi sau.

7sm

Bottom line - this thread should be on kung fu forum and aimed at other 7star people whos chi sau is the same as yours, because wing chun chi sau is so different we are talking about apples and oranges

 

[7starmantis]

Bottom line - this thread should be on kung fu forum and aimed at other 7star people whos chi sau is the same as yours, because wing chun chi sau is so different we are talking about apples and oranges

Um, this is in the Kung Fu Forum, and it could be a great discussion still, if we could get some set deffinitions of those apples and oranges. This isn't in the Wing Chun forum either so if we set a deffinition of chi sau and sparring we can all contribute and not limit it to those we assume also practice the way I do.

7sm

 

[brothershaw]

Um, this is in the Kung Fu Forum, and it could be a great discussion still, if we could get some set deffinitions of those apples and oranges. This isn't in the Wing Chun forum either so if we set a deffinition of chi sau and sparring we can all contribute and not limit it to those we assume also practice the way I do.

7sm

1- When I said kung fu forum I meant kung fu magazines forum they have an entire section just for northern mantis
2- When I tried to describe wing chun chi sau you said " you have probably only been exposed to beginner level stuff" to paraphrase.
When actually I was trying to describe my apple to you and say that what you call an apple in 7star might be an orange in wing chun not what we call an apple
3- But to get back on point I have chi sau'd (sp) with other wing chun people from outside of my school and they do things differently ( as far as thier methods and preferences) but it is still falls within a wing chun "frame work" .
4- I am however glad that you discussed the version of chi sau that is practiced at your school because I have been curious as to what other systems consider chi sau,( not to say that wing chun has the definitive version)
5- Apples and oranges if I say to a bjj or sambo guy lets roll he will think grapple on the floor for a submission , I walk up to a wing chun guy and say lets roll he may think chi sau
6- Still a decent thread, no offense intended

 

[grappling_mandala]

The Chi Sau that 7* is doing sounds like the sparring of others. <wink>

"So no one has anything to offer for what sparring has that chi sau is missing?"

I would say for the most part timing and distancing for the use of the proper tools at the proper time. I like what eyebeams had to say.

Dave Copeland

 

[Franc0]

Though our training is primarily eclectic, we do Chi Sau as part of it. Once after one of my advanced students learned his Chi Sau, and learned it well, he commented on how he felt he couldn't see it working in a more realistic confrontation, like hard sparring. At the end of a session later that week, I said to gear up for some hard contact sparring. Whenever we hard spar, we videotape it for later review. So I jumped in with him, and whenever he threw a heavy punch, I would Lop Sau him, and when he retracted his jab I would Pak Sau him. Because it happened so fast he didn't really realise it because I would also nail him with punches and whatever during execution. Afterwards we watched the videos, and he could see clearly when and how it was applied. The moral to this story boys and girls? If you train hard and really learn the deeper aspects of applications, you'll see that given the right timing and skills, it can all work for you, even in sparring. :asian:

Franco

 

[DBACPhoenix]

A month overdue, but since I took the time to read this thread I may as well post.


It is obvious that everyone's discrepency is how chi sau is taught in their school and how that compares to the stigma of sparring.

Chi Sau, sticky-hands, or how ever you want to describe it is merely the practice of maintaining contact and clinging (jim lim). Regardless if you do your chi sau slow, fast, light contact, full contact, throws, locks, grappling, starting from crossed hands or starting across the street from each other, all of this can be considered chi sau if your method includes jim lim.

A style that does not emphisize maintaining contact/clinging will obviously see chi sau as inferior, but that is because of their teachings. Sparring is a generalized term that represents any form of "free fighting" practice. As long as the participants are given a general freedom to throw techniques, you are sparring and if part of your goal is to maintain contact and cling to your opponent then you are also practicing chi sau.

You really cannot compare the two terms since Sparring has no bearing on the method of the fight, yet chi sau does. TKD students can spar, but do not practice chi sau. 7* Mantis students can do chi sau, and therefore are sparring.

The benefits seen from chi sau depend on the level and the restrictions placed on a particular session of chi sau. Chi sau can be accomplished going very slow, no movement, no kicking, one attacker and one defender. Yet it also can be done full speed, full contact, and full movement, but only as long as the method is maintained (jim lim).

As far as experiencing get hit... It doesn't take much to experience that and nearly every style exerts control in their strikes (you can't go around dehabilitating your partners).

To sum things up

Chi Sau is fighting that maintains contact and clinging
Sparring is fighting that is considered practice
Chi Sau is also fighting that is considered practice

Therefore Chi Sau is Sparring, but Sparring is not Chi Sau

Phoenix

 

[7starmantis]

I agree with part but disagree that chi sau is specifically "sticking/clinging" (jim lim). Jim Lim is a mantis principle while chi sau is a wing chun term. Many, many chi sau players know nothing of jim lim. I do agree that chi sau is probably most known for the teaching of remaining in contact and using feel, but to say its "sticking/clinging is too precise. For mantis people your correct, but for others in other systems you may not be correct.

I agree with your consensus however, chi sau is sparring, but sparring is not chi sau.

7sm

 

[brothershaw]

If they practice wing chun and dont stick/cling then there wing chun needs work and/or they werent taught to stick.

 

[Jelik]

Personally I think Chi Sao is what gives Wing Chun its edge. Sparring full contact is really good to get used to being knocked around etc, but lighter sparring (where you can learn to trust / use chi sao) is equally as important to me.

 

[Jelik]

The definition of chi sao to me is "contact reflex" - my understanding is that chi sao can be applied once any contact is made... Personally think it is much much harder to use / feel when one is padded up with gloves and head gear though!

 

[brothershaw]

You are correct about contact reflexes. From chi sau you get used to the feel of postioning, where to look for openings, are the oppenents arms moving to much left, right, forward etc. Although for just an instant it adds to your ability to get in past their limbs and strike, whil also training structure, and footwork in combination.

 

[Jelik]

Well put.

 

[chonsau1]

There has been some debate lately about sparring. Is it neccessary, when should you start sparring, should it be full contact, and out of these has come some questions about chi sau. There are those who believe chi sau has its uses and those who dont. What do you think? Does your school or do you practice chi sau? If so do you use it as a drill, standing, moving, no contact, light contact, slow, speed, full speed, etc?

What is the difference between sparring and chi sau? In my book its simply semantics. We practice chi sau very slow at the beginning. In our school you dont even get to touch hands until your an intermediate student. Then its very very slow and hands only. Then it picks up speed and power and then at the black level you start using feet as well. Then its full speed, and full contact. Of course we aren't tryin to break knees or gauge out each others eyes. There are those however that feel chi sau doesn't teach true fighting, that it lacks a realistic base and doesn't live up to "sparring". I assume sparring is using gear and such, in chi sau we use no gear.

Ok, so what are your thoughts on the matter? Do you practice chi sau? If so for what reasons? How do you practice it and what do you feel you are getting out of it?

7sm

chi sau is good practice for techniques and a starting point for combat. The best way to see if all of your training is working is to do three or four on one (you) each opponent comes at you one to two sec. appart. With wing chun an attacking opponent should be taken care of in one or two moves, if not then you are fighting that person again along with others. I have found that simple moves are the most effective(tansau punch/pac punch/straight punch no block,beat him to it.). How many of you have actually been in a fight and had a chance to use your skills? If you have you might of been alittle disappointed, I was. Over befor you new what had happened, no thought no fancy stuff just plain effectiveness. Keep doing chi sau sparring ect. all good. Maybe run your mouth off one night and see how good you really are. The most important thing is intensity allways with wing chun, even in training.

 

[naneek]

to me chi sau can only be done when in contact with the opponent, it is used to develop reflexes and sensitivity, it starts from a prearranged postition and is exclusively close range. sparring moves between ranges and does not have to start from a prearranged postition, it sounds like your mantis chisau is a mix of the two as i see them. in wing chun we want to be in contact ideally and to stay there if an opponent moves away we will stick at the first opportunity