sparring: the secret ingredient to becoming a fighter?

[ShotoNoob]

I wasnt talking about swimming...it was a metaphore for: unless you immerse yourself in an environment how can you expect to thrive in it?

Or a safe approximation that allows for training...ie controlled sparring.

Ie if all you do is practice swimming on dry land do you really think once in the water you wont sink?

I apologise i was taking poetic license and wasnt being very direct

Heck no, there's lot's us in the same "boat." Get it, swimmer / in the boat / swimmer?

I have to say this thread is proving very interesting...to me the most interesting point is that sparring exists as a spectrum where certain parts of it more adequetely prepare you for certain scenarios:

Eg certain training prepares you better for self defence, while other parts train you better for multiple round competition fighting. Whatever our views im sure we can all agree that whichever part of the spectrum our sparring falls in...that there are transferable skills eg: the mindset of stopping, punishing your opponent. The confidence to handle his incomming artillery. The agression to give him a really bad day.

That's the general way I feel....

The type of sparring does determine which weapons we will use...fists, elbows etc...which personally bothers me. I would love to train headbutts in sparring.

Ouch!

I disagree with the assertion that saying im really going to hurt my attacker is a sporting based mentality...i suspect this is art/school dependant as in my Wing Tchun/school we are left in no doubt that the aim is to "disable" the opponent so that he is no longer a threat to us. We are a self defence focussed school.

No doubt we have some difference in principles.... The maxim that you have to engage to get beat up means that this is how you learn to beat some one up, traditional karate doesn't agree, or TMA for that matter IMO. Do we benefit from reality training/ testing--sure.

Loving the concept of talking about martial arts as a mental discipline.

Well that's what it is. It's not a physcial sport where you do drills over & over then just let your body react like doing layups.
|
This is one reason the Shotokan for Self-Defense thread expanded so much--differing views on that. //PAUSE// I'm not big on the Shotokan karate style--it's much too physical & aggressive in it's presentation & conventions for me. Yet at the same time(IMO), that is it's point. Taking the physical & showing the mental discipline is takes to do some much heavy physicality & aggression in a precise, organized & deliberately ordered way.
|
There's a great YT vid of Shotokan karate line sparring done this way <<IMO>> that another poster put up @ the Shotokan for Self Defense T; or maybe the MMA is Not a Real Martial Art T.

 

[ShotoNoob]

KIME, by traditional karate standards, is a part of that Shotokan line-training kumite exercise.

 

[Hyoho]

The secret is....you could already fight before you did M.A. and it now needs channeling into some form or other including some hard repetition work.

 

[ShotoNoob]

....Strikers vs grapplers is a completely different ball game lol

|
My View on Strikers vs. Grappler, the one people love to hate. Someone mentioned TSD. Here's a vid (a DEMONSTRATION) of defense to an opponent reaching out to GRAB you.

The secret is....you could already fight before you did M.A. and it now needs channeling into some form or other including some hard repetition work.

|
Okay, here's the TMA way. Now are they training reactions--or is the exercise training "mental clarity & KIME." Are they training the body to do technique--or synchronized body involvement into technique?
|
IOW, how does staged kumite fit into the secret sauce, so to speak?

 

[Buka]

If you're striking - the distance changes, it isn't constant. The distance changes in sparring all the time. Sometimes you control it sometimes he controls it. Learning from this is important, IMO.

If you're grappling, the positions change. Sometimes you control more of those changes, sometimes he does. When you're rolling, it kind of goes the same way.

I just can't see not sparring in Martial Arts. Kind of a bottom line for me and for everyone I've ever trained with.

 

[drop bear]

If you're striking - the distance changes, it isn't constant. The distance changes in sparring all the time. Sometimes you control it sometimes he controls it. Learning from this is important, IMO.

If you're grappling, the positions change. Sometimes you control more of those changes, sometimes he does. When you're rolling, it kind of goes the same way.

I just can't see not sparring in Martial Arts. Kind of a bottom line for me and for everyone I've ever trained with.

It is dealing with your opinions being constantly cut off. You don't get the space and time to do technique. So you need better technique to be successful.

 

[drop bear]

It is dealing with your opinions being constantly cut off. You don't get the space and time to do technique. So you need better technique to be successful.

Options.....

Spellchecker.

 

[mograph]

I found the "edit" button: It's at the bottom left of the post. Took me a while.

 

[drop bear]

I found the "edit" button: It's at the bottom left of the post. Took me a while.

Doesn't work on my phone.

 

[drop bear]

"My View on Strikers vs. Grappler, the one people love to hate. Someone mentioned TSD. Here's a vid (a DEMONSTRATION) of defense to an opponent reaching out to GRAB you."

Breaks basic grabbing principles in that the further you reach for someone the less effective you are going to be when you grab them.

 

[Chris Parker]

The Ninjutsu guys who used to come to our tournament and compete in forms always came with cuts and bruises, and were always able to defend themselves against anyone who knew they didnt free spar and wanted to see if they were capable of SD. This included the MMA guys we'd get who regularly competed there to compliment their TMA training or vice versa. They also took down a Naval Cadet my first year. People would always ask to go in the hall and be shown and the ninjutsu guys would usually just say, "okay come at me". And after one or two techs, theyd take the guy down

They didnt do free sparring, but they did all their drills and bunkai excercises with the attacker coming full speed and full power.

But, if one of them wanted to do kickboxing or MMA, theyd have to start free sparring.

A bit off topic, but… that doesn't sound like Ninjutsu… we don't have forms in such a fashion, nor do we have "bunkai", or "drills" the way is suggested here. Fake ninjutsu… yeah… but that's because they're copying what they think martial arts are, with karate as a basis… nothing to do with the actual art at all…

I just can't see not sparring in Martial Arts. Kind of a bottom line for me and for everyone I've ever trained with.

Well, consider yourself introduced to someone who doesn't do any sparring, then… in any of my systems. Nor do a range of other systems, for the record.

 

[Tez3]

It depends on what 'type' of fighting you are looking at as to what the magic ingredient is. If it's competition fighting then the magic ingredient is fitness, no good being the most aggressive, most proficient fighter going if you simply gas after the first few seconds

 

[Buka]

Well, consider yourself introduced to someone who doesn't do any sparring, then… in any of my systems. Nor do a range of other systems, for the record.

Yes, I realize that. I read your posts, often learning much from them. I was speaking of my own particular journey and those who have journeyed with me.

But, pleased to meet you.

 

[Mephisto]

|
My View on Strikers vs. Grappler, the one people love to hate. Someone mentioned TSD. Here's a vid (a DEMONSTRATION) of defense to an opponent reaching out to GRAB you.

|
Okay, here's the TMA way. Now are they training reactions--or is the exercise training "mental clarity & KIME." Are they training the body to do technique--or synchronized body involvement into technique?
|
IOW, how does staged kumite fit into the secret sauce, so to speak?

I'm not sure what the video has to do with striking vs grappling. In a fight or self defense situation it seems pretty unlikely that someone will grab your wrist. The wrist grab seems to be a basic building block of many systems to teach basic mechanics. Its not an explanation of what to do when facing a grappler. Not to mention there's no need for an elaborate escape from a wrist grab, in my system we just punch to the face. But it can be a fundamental building block to the learning process, it's still taking the long route imo.

 

[ShotoNoob]

I'm not sure what the video has to do with striking vs grappling. In a fight or self defense situation it seems pretty unlikely that someone will grab your wrist. The wrist grab seems to be a basic building block of many systems to teach basic mechanics.

It's affording basic principles, within a specific illustration. That's what it is.
Its not an explanation of what to do when facing a grappler. Not to mention there's no need for an elaborate escape from a wrist grab, in my system we just punch to the face. But it can be a fundamental building block to the learning process, it's still taking the long route imo.

|
Ha, ha. I couldn't agree more with your tactical critique. It's one that's definitely on my plate.... But I see more. It's gives me a grappling counter to a grappling move. Someone reaches to grab me or move my guard on the way to a takedown, OR then maybe a punch in the face--it's gives me an out, sets up the counter move.
|
Remember, it's a demo. In practice it will become faster & more resistive. The valuable lesson is the quality of how you respond.
|
And don't forget these are taught as a set (that build) in the traditional karate curriculum....
|
Thanks for chiming in....

 

[drop bear]

"Well, consider yourself introduced to someone who doesn't do any sparring, then… in any of my systems. Nor do a range of other systems, for the record."

How well do you perform in fights?

 

[Drose427]

A bit off topic, but… that doesn't sound like Ninjutsu… we don't have forms in such a fashion, nor do we have "bunkai", or "drills" the way is suggested here. Fake ninjutsu… yeah… but that's because they're copying what they think martial arts are, with karate as a basis… nothing to do with the actual art at all…



Well, consider yourself introduced to someone who doesn't do any sparring, then… in any of my systems. Nor do a range of other systems, for the record.

"Well, consider yourself introduced to someone who doesn't do any sparring, then… in any of my systems. Nor do a range of other systems, for the record."

How well do you perform in fights?

Drop Bear, I quoted Chris for you so you can hopefully get a quicker reply

My guess? Drilling.

could easily be wrong though

 

[ShotoNoob]

If you're striking - the distance changes, it isn't constant. The distance changes in sparring all the time. Sometimes you control it sometimes he controls it. Learning from this is important, IMO.

|
The working objective of the traditional karateka, in this case me, I control the distance all the time. The dynamic you cite is the sport-fighting experience where the opponents trade sorties, he does one, you react, then you do one, he reacts. Classic MMA fight, boxing match, K-1 etc.... Kyo's typically fight a lot like this too--why I don't like Kyokushin karate conventional kumite.
|
Moreover, I'm not really controlling the distance, I'm targeting the opponent....

If you're grappling, the positions change. Sometimes you control more of those changes, sometimes he does. When you're rolling, it kind of goes the same way

|
Right, Matt Bryers MMA demo.... not what I do....

I just can't see not sparring in Martial Arts. Kind of a bottom line for me and for everyone I've ever trained with.

This is why the traditional karate model has kumite. How you approach kumite & what weight you give it in the training remains the open question.
|
A traditional karateka who doesn't free spar much can look to other parts of the curriculum for a stronger or stronger base from which to actually fight...

 

[Chris Parker]

"Well, consider yourself introduced to someone who doesn't do any sparring, then… in any of my systems. Nor do a range of other systems, for the record."

How well do you perform in fights?

What do you mean by "fight"?

 

[Mephisto]

|
The working objective of the traditional karateka, in this case me, I control the distance all the time. The dynamic you cite is the sport-fighting experience where the opponents trade sorties, he does one, you react, then you do one, he reacts. Classic MMA fight, boxing match, K-1 etc.... Kyo's typically fight a lot like this too--why I don't like Kyokushin karate conventional kumite.
|
Moreover, I'm not really controlling the distance, I'm targeting the opponent....


|
Right, Matt Bryers MMA demo.... not what I do....

This is why the traditional karate model has kumite. How you approach kumite & what weight you give it in the training remains the open question.
|
A traditional karateka who doesn't free spar much can look to other parts of the curriculum for a stronger or stronger base from which to actually fight...

Your analysis of the trading ranges and give and take aspect of sports fighting is unfortunately a common error of sport martial art criticism. The reality of dealing with a resisting and equally matched opponent is that you must range in and out. In an uneven matched fight you move in throw a combination and ko the guy, but when you're dealing with skill it's not so easy. Believe me if a boxer could just enter and end the fight quickly it would happen and sometimes it does. The problem with an enter and go all out strategy is that if you fail to incapacitate your opponent you may be too tired to continue, it's something to be cautious of in the street too.