sparring: the secret ingredient to becoming a fighter?

[ShotoNoob]

Your analysis of the trading ranges and give and take aspect of sports fighting is unfortunately a common error of sport martial art criticism.

What I have observed and experienced in free sparring is how I've stated it. We certainly both agree there's an error of some sort there....

The reality of dealing with a resisting and equally matched opponent is that you must range in and out.

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Yes, I see your point. You assume equal, however, my plan to be superior in karate preparation. ON the ranging in & out, this is a common believe as the best way to deal with an opponent. I point to both the traditional karate kumite exercises which do so on a tactically necessary basis; as well the older Okinawan styles which stress in-fighting to the finish. These is no ranging in & out like you typically see in sport karate or say the conventional Shotokan point fighting kumite style.
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In an uneven matched fight you move in throw a combination and ko the guy, but when you're dealing with skill it's not so easy. Believe me if a boxer could just enter and end the fight quickly it would happen and sometimes it does. The problem with an enter and go all out strategy is that if you fail to incapacitate your opponent you may be too tired to continue, it's something to be cautious of in the street too.

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There's truth here but there is a stated goal in the self-defense precept for traditional karate is that you hurt the opponent to end the fight. Boxer's often seek to wear down there opponent over several rounds, not kill or maim the other guy. Sport karate typically transforms into an athletic demonstration of speed hitting alone. Both lack the tactical effectiveness & power output to end a fight quickly & decisively.
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The goal of the traditional karate curriculum, when it comes to application, is not to make me a better striker, it's to make be a better finisher....
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People question my success in competitive sparring. Cause I don't fool around. It's in & done. Of course this doesn't work against superior opponents. So that's why I concentrate on foundation, not sparring.
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Can your approach of ranging help or can free sparring help? Sure. The traditional karate foundation is what counts under traditional karate principles, not free sparring. Interestingly enough, was just reading here @ MT about the history of TSD (KSD). TSD stresses kata & the traditional karate foundation. So I'm in line with that philosophy....
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The story I told about the intimidating kickboxer senior-belt @ our school. Fought me with expectation that I would do just what you said, range in & out. Defeated him by 1st standing still on his first 'sortie,' then moving in upon his moving in for the 'KO.' I rarely, and I mean rarely back up.... I do what's taught in Ippon Kumite...

 

[ShotoNoob]

Your analysis of the trading ranges and give and take aspect of sports fighting is unfortunately a common error of sport martial art criticism. The reality of dealing with a resisting and equally matched opponent is that you must range in and out....

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As you know, I like to apply karate to MMA. Take a look at Luke Rockhold's striking domination of Michael Bisping. You will see both fighters ranging way in & out just as you say. However, you will see, in that YT highlight vid, how chancy a strategy this is, especially for Bisping.
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Rockhold is very talented, IMO. Machida tends to be a ranger in & out. Rockhold overcame Bispings' ranging in & out. BIG QUESTION FOR THE UPCOMING MACHIDA / ROCKHOLD BOUT: Is Machida's range / distancing strategy going to stand up to Rockhold? I feel Machida's at real risk here....

 

[Buka]

It is dealing with your opinions being constantly cut off. You don't get the space and time to do technique. So you need better technique to be successful.

Did you mean "options" being constantly cut off"?

 

[ShotoNoob]

Reading about the Tang Soo Do style, I think that over all, this style is heading in the right direction for giving that traditional karate foundation. If you want the more athletic, sport approach, the TKD korean style seems to follow closer to the Shotokan point fighting kumite as it later evolved. But of course these are generalizations.
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TSD is more kata-centered, TKD is more kumite-centered.

 

[drop bear]

Did you mean "options" being constantly cut off"?

Yeah. Things like Inconveniently bringing your hand back after you punch.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Did you mean "options" being constantly cut off"?

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This sparked my recollection of one of Rockhold's stated tactics to defeat Machida. "Cutting off the cage." I've heard this strategy often e-nounced by MMA coaches. In traditional karate, you try to cut me off, I cut you down. That's the overall strategic karate answer.... to Luke Rockhold, et. al.

 

[Buka]

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The working objective of the traditional karateka, in this case me, I control the distance all the time.

I think the quote function messed up in your post# 38. The quotes attributed to Steve were mine.

IMO, You can't control distance all the time. If you and I were doing stand up and I tagged you followed by a good pump fake THEN I moved back instead of forward, I would have controlled the distance by increasing it.

 

[Buka]

It is dealing with your opinions being constantly cut off. You don't get the space and time to do technique. So you need better technique to be successful.

Drop Bear, I don't understand what you mean by options being constantly cut off. In striking, my options are never cut off, not to mention "constantly"
We're you referring to grappling?

 

[drop bear]

Drop Bear, I don't understand what you mean by options being constantly cut off. In striking, my options are never cut off, not to mention "constantly"
We're you referring to grappling?

So you are always in a position to hit the other guy?

 

[Buka]

So you are always in a position to hit the other guy?

When within distance, yes. If it's a real fight and I'm not in distance - I'm closing and will be within distance in a heartbeat.

If it's sparring, unless I'm coasting (like with a student) I'll either close in a heartbeat or, if he's an aggressive striker, intercept.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You don't get the space and time to do technique. So you need better technique to be successful.

Lately, this is the most important strategy that I like to use. If I don't give my opponent the space and time to generate a full power and full speed punch, it will be to my advantage. This is why I like my "rhino guard' that I put both of my fists right in front of my opponent's nose. If my opponent tries to punch around it, his face will be right open for me. It's a very "simple" strategy.

 

[ShotoNoob]

I think the quote function messed up in your post# 38. The quotes attributed to Steve were mine.

Sorry....

IMO, You can't control distance all the time. If you and I were doing stand up and I tagged you followed by a good pump fake THEN I moved back instead of forward, I would have controlled the distance by increasing it.

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I move as you move. Not in reaction to how you move. These mental kumite skills are spelled out in the Shotokan karate syllabus.
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For instance looking @ your example. You tag me--Maybe not. I am very hard to hit. Then you 'pump fake.' If you read my short-story on the aggressive kickboxer, I do not fall for feints. You have to actually engage the strike for contact before I will move. This is another mental quality mentioned in the Shotokan karate syllabus and in the "State of Mind" T, elsewhere. Then you move back.
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So what? According to my relpy, you never hit me. So for martial purposes, here self defense, I controlled the distance. Furthermore, if you are close enough to 'tag' me, then you are also close enough for me to counter. Again, this kumite principle is specifically covered in the Shotokan karate syllabus.... An if I am able to counter, then the probability is I will embark to continue my attack until victorious. This principle is demonstrated in the beginner level Taikyoku kata--that everyone says are impractical for actual fighting with the simpleton down block, etc. That latter view is too simplistic, IMO.
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The ippon kumite videos I've put up, and which have been rounded criticized by some @ MT, also demonstrate the style of response I use, and the internal mental principles I've spoken about. Maybe that's why karate Master's teach 1-steps.
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So to summarize. So you have moved all around, it's true you have changed the distance, the greater truth is you haven't controlled anything.... I'm still standing & the probability is that I blocked your first tag, in the least.
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In terms of the vast majority of competitive TMA or MMA sparring, you are entirely correct. The Rockhold vs. Bisping YT vid I spoke of makes an excellent confirmation of your position. I am NOT a sport karate fighter.....

 

[ShotoNoob]

When within distance, yes. If it's a real fight and I'm not in distance - I'm closing and will be within distance in a heartbeat.

If it's sparring, unless I'm coasting (like with a student) I'll either close in a heartbeat or, if he's an aggressive striker, intercept.

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In the outward form context, we are saying sort of the same thing. One difference is that I'm not counting so on quick mobility such as you are. I'm counting more on being mentally-set to move.
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Since you are talking about closing the distance, it's going to take you 1-2 heart-beats while I only need 1/2 heart-beat to take action against your advance.

 

[Hyoho]

@Shoto noob I'm fully aware of ippon kumite having taken part in competition some 50 years ago. Also breaking for exibition but targets dont hit you back. But do you really think you can put people down in one blow? As an example UFC has "experts" from all fields that need to beat the crap out of each other until one goes down. People dont go down so easy. Ippon matches tests the skills in fighters to see if not only you can achieve good waza (technique) but tests the skills of people in fighting spirit and stamina. None of these arts if you can call them that are superior. It's all down to the person who does it.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Although my training & fighting style are not Shotokan, moonhill99 posted "Great Shotokan Karate" YT vid over @ the "Some Kung Fu and Karate Do Not Do Well Fighting a Boxer" T. The thesis of this T is probably true 50% of the time AT LEAST. Simply because the traditional karate base IS HARDER TO DO, takes much longer to forge than good, rudimentary boxing....
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The date of moonhill99's post was March 5, 2015.... for the interested. the MT mentors are familiar of course....

 

[ShotoNoob]

@Shoto noob I'm fully aware of ippon kumite having taken part in competition some 50 years ago. Also breaking for exibition but targets dont hit you back.

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On the contrary, I'll knock out your teeth just like I break boards.... People with their teeth knocked out don't hit back. They go to the hospital then to dental surgery.... this is the WHOLE end point of IPPON KUMITE.
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But do you really think you can put people down in one blow? As an example UFC has "experts" from all fields that need to beat the crap out of each other until one goes down.

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The applied goal of traditional karate is to quickly & efficiently disable your opponent. That's what the curriculum provides. We're now back to is it the style or the stylist that makes this happen? Edit: or school. Such as Matt Bryers Combat JuiJutsu.....
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People dont go down so easy.

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"On people don't go down so easy," that's again addressed in the traditional karate curriculum. It's in the design of 1-steps, kata, and traditional juyi kumite....
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First of all in MMA, they are not deliberately trying to put their opponent in the hospital. There is a lot of sportsmanship in holding back, lest you kill or maim your opponent. There was just an interview by a long-time MMA / UFC fighter that said he now thought he sparred too much and it forced him out with brain damage.... So a deliberately lethal force blow could do the same from any MMA or TMA style. Machida, if he gets it right, KO's opponents with kicks. Much of the other time, take the Randy Couture bout, Machida's dancing around essentially scoring contact points. Listen to Couture, he'll tell you that this is exactly what his experience was in the Machida fight....
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Ippon matches tests the skills in fighters to see if not only you can achieve good waza (technique) but tests the skills of people in fighting spirit and stamina. None of these arts if you can call them that are superior. It's all down to the person who does it.

As to your final statements, traditional karate is an individual endevor just as you say. Traditional karate is also one general MA style to get you there.... There's others. But the overall question remains, is how do you access the full potential of that training to get the maximum benefit?

 

[Drose427]

Your analysis of the trading ranges and give and take aspect of sports fighting is unfortunately a common error of sport martial art criticism. The reality of dealing with a resisting and equally matched opponent is that you must range in and out. In an uneven matched fight you move in throw a combination and ko the guy, but when you're dealing with skill it's not so easy. Believe me if a boxer could just enter and end the fight quickly it would happen and sometimes it does. The problem with an enter and go all out strategy is that if you fail to incapacitate your opponent you may be too tired to continue, it's something to be cautious of in the street too.

To add to this,

One thing I've noticed at traditional tournaments is that the guy who attacks till the ref breaks it up or says to stop, tends to beat the "in and Out" guy.

I've one matches because I went nonstop till the ref stopped it, and my opponent wasnt as used to that as "in and out" trading.

 

[ShotoNoob]

But do you really think you can put people down in one blow? As an example UFC has "experts" from all fields that need to beat the crap out of each other until one goes down. People dont go down so easy.

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Please see my TSD demo vid @ Post #24.
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Also, I think there's some confusion in terms between my use of Ippon Kumite = 1-step sparring, //and// your reference to ippon kumite as the winner to score 1st full point in jiyu kumite.

 

[ShotoNoob]

To add to this,

One thing I've noticed at traditional tournaments is that the guy who attacks till the ref breaks it up or says to stop, tends to beat the "in and Out" guy.

I've one matches because I went nonstop till the ref stopped it, and my opponent wasnt as used to that as "in and out" trading.

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Absolutely. This thing of single point strike & out is completely the narrowest interpretation of traditional karate you could have. THE LATTER IS COMPLETELY WRONG LOOKING @ THE CURRICULUM FOR SHOTOKAN. As I've said, the better Shotokan kumite fighters competition fight as you do....

 

[VT_Vectis]

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On the contrary, I'll knock out your teeth just like I break boards.... People with their teeth knocked out don't hit back. They go to the hospital then to dental surgery.... this is the WHOLE end point of IPPON KUMITE.
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The applied goal of traditional karate is to quickly & efficiently disable your opponent. That's what the curriculum provides. We're now back to is it the style or the stylist that makes this happen? Edit: or school. Such as Matt Bryers Combat JuiJutsu.....
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"On people don't go down so easy," that's again addressed in the traditional karate curriculum. It's in the design of 1-steps, kata, and traditional juyi kumite....
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First of all in MMA, they are not deliberately trying to put their opponent in the hospital. There is a lot of sportsmanship in holding back, lest you kill or maim your opponent. There was just an interview by a long-time MMA / UFC fighter that said he now thought he sparred too much and it forced him out with brain damage.... So a deliberately lethal force blow could do the same from any MMA or TMA style. Machida, if he gets it right, KO's opponents with kicks. Much of the other time, take the Randy Couture bout, Machida's dancing around essentially scoring contact points. Listen to Couture, he'll tell you that this is exactly what his experience was in the Machida fight....
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As to your final statements, traditional karate is an individual endevor just as you say. Traditional karate is also one general MA style to get you there.... There's others. But the overall question remains, is how do you access the full potential of that training to get the maximum benefit?[/QUOTE

I realise this thread is about sparring but I think a little reality check is needed here. I don't mean for this to be a personal attack on anyone or their style, so I hope it doesn't come across that way.

Although I respect your love and belief in your art , mate, I think if you go out on a Friday night and try that with most any testosterone fuelled douche you'll be the one heading to the doctors. Let alone against those used to full contact, alive training. And no chance when it comes to mma. Life isn't like the Kwoon/dojo and training needs to reflect that or acknowledge the realities of actual violence, whether sport or defending against an aggressor.
My opinion, only.