sparring: the secret ingredient to becoming a fighter?

[Lestat83]

I just wanted to put down my thoughts on becoming a better fighter in general in the martial arts...i am fairly new to Wing Tchun...i am from a non associated Leung Ting school in the UK that does sparring. I wanted to see if people spar and how important it is for your development as a martial artists...?

Ok this post will upset people i have no doubt about that, but thats really not my intention here.
I wanted to talk about several things that are trained during sparring...the right attitude...confidence under fire...the use of agression.

In wing chun theres a saying:
"press forward when the way is open" which means when there is an opening or when you are not being attacked:

Find an opening and exploit
create an opening and exploit

You will never win a war by being the victim, by waiting for bombs to drop on you.
You win a war by dropping bombs on the enemy and damaging targets.
Every chance you give an opponent to drop a bomb, the more likely will get hit. The more likely you will loose.

Maybe i cant see the whole picture but from my experience the only way to train the aggressive attitude, the fearlessness of being hit, the confidence to press forward and finish off your opponent is through sparring. What i see is when people dont spar: there defences collapse under furious assaults and they simply dont know how to handle someone swinging at them psychologically or physically. Even worse when they get hit their training goes out the window.

People who dont spar dont understand or know how to use aggression...how to wage a war with their fists on a non compliant opponent.
Because of a lack of confidence/experience/the right attitude... they are passive when they spar for the first time and i see them overwhelmed by furious assaults cause they wait there for an invitation to attack their opponent with the intention of actually stopping him.

I just feel sparring is quite fundamental in developing as a fighter. I just think how can you learn to swim if you never go into the water...? Yet many in kung fu feel they are too dangerous to spar etc etc etc...so have no real understanding of how actually dangerous they are.

It becomes painfully obvious who is and who isnt an effective fighter when they spar with someone experienced. Sure they might believe they are deadly but quite frankly unless you can show your skills or your ability then its just a fantasy.


Strikers vs grapplers is a completely different ball game lol

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You will never win a war by being the victim, by waiting for bombs to drop on you.
You win a war by dropping bombs on the enemy and damaging targets.

This attitude is very important. When you are in the ring or on the mat, you want to act like a tiger and eat your opponent alive. When you are off the ring/mat, you will act like a sheep, the most friendly person on earth.

Here is one of my favor jokes.

- I want to walk in the Central Park.
- It's not safe there. you may get mugged.
- That's why I'm going over there. I'm a bit short on cash.
- ...

Even if you may not want to treat yourself as a predictor, you should definitely not want to treat yourself as a prey either.

 

[Drose427]

It depends on how you define sparring And what you intend to do.

Many of the things you listed can easily be learned without continuous free sparring By various full speed and full contact drills. Theyre still someone twice your size barreling down on you. Remember, for advance belts step sparring is usually just for testing out new things, there are different drills and exercises for techs that are natural.

The Ninjutsu guys who used to come to our tournament and compete in forms always came with cuts and bruises, and were always able to defend themselves against anyone who knew they didnt free spar and wanted to see if they were capable of SD. This included the MMA guys we'd get who regularly competed there to compliment their TMA training or vice versa. They also took down a Naval Cadet my first year. People would always ask to go in the hall and be shown and the ninjutsu guys would usually just say, "okay come at me". And after one or two techs, theyd take the guy down

They didnt do free sparring, but they did all their drills and bunkai excercises with the attacker coming full speed and full power.

But, if one of them wanted to do kickboxing or MMA, theyd have to start free sparring.


To defend oneself from an attack? Free sparring is debatable.

Personally, i will always have anyone i work with or teach ome day free spar. Not because i think they couldnt defend themselves without it, but the little things.

I.e., if they new a fight was coming or felt in danger, is rather then be used to light footwork and movement which you dont always get with free sparring. Its not the only way to get that, but i think its one of the easiest

 

[Buka]

Here is one of my favor jokes.

- I want to walk in the Central Park.
- It's not safe there. you may get mugged.
- That's why I'm going over there. I'm a bit short on cash.
- ...

I can't even comment on the thread right now because I'm laughing too hard.
That was really funny.

 

[Shai Hulud]

I agree. Sparring is probably the best way to pressure-test martial skill and field-strap techniques and tactics for real-life application. The more stressful, the better.

 

[hoshin1600]

I agree. Sparring is probably the best way to pressure-test martial skill and field-strap techniques and tactics for real-life application. The more stressful, the better.

I like sparring. I enjoy it. But I think Drone is right, there are other ways to get good. Scenario based training for example. My problem with sparring is that it often becomes a give and take type exercise and if your looking to get good at street fighting the goal should be for it to be a one way exchange. Me dominating the other guy.
Some other problems with sparring is incorrect cadence and intensity compared to street fighting. Often because of chosen style there is a one dimensional quality to it. Sparring tends not to engage in grabs, pushes, shoves and pulls that disrupt and often disorient the combatants.
If you include or account for these then sure sparring is a good vehicle.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Sparring tends not to engage in grabs, pushes, shoves and pulls ... Scenario based training ...

If you can integrate sparring and wrestling together, you won't have such concern.

The

- "scenario based training (such as a hay-maker at your head)" is used to "develop" your combat skill.

- "sparring/wrestling" is used to "test" your combat skill.

 

[drop bear]

"But, if one of them wanted to do kickboxing or MMA, theyd have to start free sparring.


To defend oneself from an attack? Free sparring is debatable."

Why would there be a difference?

 

[drop bear]

I like sparring. I enjoy it. But I think Drone is right, there are other ways to get good. Scenario based training for example. My problem with sparring is that it often becomes a give and take type exercise and if your looking to get good at street fighting the goal should be for it to be a one way exchange. Me dominating the other guy.
Some other problems with sparring is incorrect cadence and intensity compared to street fighting. Often because of chosen style there is a one dimensional quality to it. Sparring tends not to engage in grabs, pushes, shoves and pulls that disrupt and often disorient the combatants.
If you include or account for these then sure sparring is a good vehicle.

This comes into my concept of bad partner training.

And that sometimes you just have to be a jerk about these things to give a realistic environment.

 

[Danny T]

There are different types of sparring. Fight Sports sparring is different from Touch and Stop competition sparring. Fight back sparring as in a self-defense attack is different from Fight Sports sparring. Bladed weapon sparring is different from boxing sparring. What is the point of the sparring? What one is training for / sparring for will have a different sparring aspect.

 

[Drose427]

"But, if one of them wanted to do kickboxing or MMA, theyd have to start free sparring.


To defend oneself from an attack? Free sparring is debatable."

Why would there be a difference?

Because you can do enough scenario drilling and attacls to defend yourself against an attacker.

But thats a far cry from fighting a 3 round match

 

[Danny T]

"But, if one of them wanted to do kickboxing or MMA, theyd have to start free sparring.


To defend oneself from an attack? Free sparring is debatable."

Why would there be a difference?

Self defense is completely different than fight sports. The mindset is different, the goal is different, the strategies are different, the intent is different, the agreements are different, the timelines are different, the training methods are different, the sparring will be different.

 

[drop bear]

Self defense is completely different than fight sports. The mindset is different, the goal is different, the strategies are different, the intent is different, the agreements are different, the timelines are different, the training methods are different, the sparring will be different.

So say you don't want to get punched in the face. Is that a sports mentality or a sd mentality?

 

[Danny T]

So say you don't want to get punched in the face. Is that a sports mentality or a sd mentality?

Now that is Funny! Maybe you should present that question to those who say they love the hits and spar for the ko.
Do you feel that self defense is the same as sport fighting and that the mentality is the same?

 

[drop bear]

Now that is Funny! Maybe you should present that question to those who say they love the hits and spar for the ko.
Do you feel that self defense is the same as sport fighting and that the mentality is the same?

Depends how you are defining the mentality. In simplest terms I would say not really. "this guy wants to hurt me. I am going to stop him doing that"

There are some situational differences depending on the person and the attack.

 

[Mephisto]

Sparring can be done with different rules and for different contexts but I disagree with Dose's assertion that situational drills are an adequate replacement for sparring unless of course those drills involve hard contact in an unscripted manner. I disagree with the idea of too much give and take in sports sparring. A sparring match can have different focuses even with the sport context. With a less skilled guy I work defense, I know when Ive got him and I'll ease up, to avoid giving out concussions. If the sparring is more even matched there's no going easy.

I don't think someone training for the street necessarily needs to train to go for 3/3min rounds. You could do an all out one minute round. But the conditioning that going longer rounds offers is a good benefit. And generally the more fit fighter will have the advantage.

 

[ShotoNoob]

There are different types of sparring. Fight Sports sparring is different from Touch and Stop competition sparring. Fight back sparring as in a self-defense attack is different from Fight Sports sparring. Bladed weapon sparring is different from boxing sparring. What is the point of the sparring? What one is training for / sparring for will have a different sparring aspect.

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Right. We shouldn't we lump all 'sparring' together as the same type of sparring. In addition, whatever type or approach one is taking, there should be some standards to keep it accomplishing a martial objective.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Sparring can be done with different rules and for different contexts but I disagree with Dose's assertion that situational drills are an adequate replacement for sparring unless of course those drills involve hard contact in an unscripted manner. I disagree with the idea of too much give and take in sports sparring. A sparring match can have different focuses even with the sport context. With a less skilled guy I work defense, I know when Ive got him and I'll ease up, to avoid giving out concussions. If the sparring is more even matched there's no going easy....

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Pointed out by another poster, another T on Shotokan bunkai: differentiate a drill demonstration, from learning the drill, from practicing the drill, to adding some resistance to the drill, to pressure testing the drill... to Drose427 realistic scenario. There's a spectrum here.

 

[ShotoNoob]

People who dont spar dont understand or know how to use aggression...how to wage a war with their fists on a non compliant opponent.
Because of a lack of confidence/experience/the right attitude... they are passive when they spar for the first time and i see them overwhelmed by furious assaults cause they wait there for an invitation to attack their opponent with the intention of actually stopping him.

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This is the 'SPORT FIGHTING' MENTALITY. Lack of sparring--EXPERIENCE & Lack of confidence--THE MENTAL CLARITY DIMENSION, are two separate characteristics.

I just feel sparring is quite fundamental in developing as a fighter. I just think how can you learn to swim if you never go into the water...? Yet many in kung fu feel they are too dangerous to spar etc etc etc...so have no real understanding of how actually dangerous they are.

Traditional karate is mental discipline. Swimming is an athletic activity. Oranges to Apples.
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I do very little free sparring @ my dojo--declining whenever I can. Yet the aggressive, furious attackers you describe can't handle me. That aside, the traditional karate curriculum has 3 components: kihon, kata, kumite. Free sparring is a requirement of the curriculum.... and for belt-rank testing. A rounded approach is recommended by traditional karate.

Strikers vs grapplers is a completely different ball game lol

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Not so for the mentally-adept karate fighter.....

 

[Lestat83]

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Traditional karate is mental discipline. Swimming is an athletic activity. Oranges to Apples.
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I wasnt talking about swimming...it was a metaphore for: unless you immerse yourself in an environment how can you expect to thrive in it?

Or a safe approximation that allows for training...ie controlled sparring.

Ie if all you do is practice swimming on dry land do you really think once in the water you wont sink?

I apologise i was taking poetic license and wasnt being very direct

I have to say this thread is proving very interesting...to me the most interesting point is that sparring exists as a spectrum where certain parts of it more adequetely prepare you for certain scenarios:

Eg certain training prepares you better for self defence, while other parts train you better for multiple round competition fighting. Whatever our views im sure we can all agree that whichever part of the spectrum our sparring falls in...that there are transferable skills eg: the mindset of stopping, punishing your opponent. The confidence to handle his incomming artillery. The agression to give him a really bad day.

The type of sparring does determine which weapons we will use...fists, elbows etc...which personally bothers me. I would love to train headbutts in sparring.

I disagree with the assertion that saying im really going to hurt my attacker is a sporting based mentality...i suspect this is art/school dependant as in my Wing Tchun/school we are left in no doubt that the aim is to "disable" the opponent so that he is no longer a threat to us. We are a self defence focussed school.

Loving the concept of talking about martial arts as a mental discipline.