Sparring and TMA's

[Kung Fu Wang]

I doubt anyone could train wrist locks full speed without severely damaging their partner. You can train against resistance but you'll quickly run out of students if they go flat chat.

The fast and slow is a relative term. It's not an absolute turm. If you move fast, your opponent will respond fast, and you have to respond fast too.

If you try to train how to deal with your opponent's jab and cross combo, do you want him to throw a slow 1,2 combo, or do you want him to throw a fast 1,2 combo? If you ask him to throw a slow 1,2 combo, how long do you want to continue this kind of training? After you are good at dealing with combat speed combo, will you ever want to go back to the slow speed training?

If you want to train hip throw counter. When your opponent spin into you, you spin with him, interrupt one of his legs and take him down. Do you want him to move in slow speed so you can train your slow speed counter, or do you want him to move in combat speed so you can take advantage on his body momentum? If your opponent moves in slow speed, you won't be able to borrow his momentum, your counter may not work.

I don't like my opponet to throw a punch, freeze there, so I'll have all the time in the world to play my defense and counter. To me, to throw a punch and freeze in the thin air is bad habit. To deal with a frozon punch is also a bad habit. If I train this way, it will be neither good for my opponent nor good for myself. I want my training to have certain amount of "alert". If I don't concentrate, I'll get hit. I see no reason to reduce that level of "alert" even for the beginners level training stage. After a beginner has developed that "shirt on fire" feeling, he will be benefited by that for the rest of his life.

 

[Blindside]

But when I'm teaching Bowie (where I see the second problem most often), it drives me bananas when a student will rush in to get a "hit" in a manner that assures an immediate ripost. "Double Death" sucks and we're not using electronic scoring machines or anything. One of the things I love about the Bowie is how, historically speaking, it was a full-range weapon and tool. It was used for daily duty as a tool, as "self defense" against a range of weapons and opponents, as a backup weapon to less than 100% reliable firearms, and (yes) for dueling. We try to explore all of those ranges but, to be perfectly honest, "dueling" is really the most fun.

At this years Dog Brothers Gathering, several of the fighters were taking a "stick" approach to fighting with aluminum knives, Crafty kept yelling "fight like you actually want to live through this fight." You could see where guys with predominately stick or unarmed backgrounds weren't getting the idea of "no trading."

 

[K-man]

The fast and slow is a relative term. It's not an absolute turm. If you move fast, your opponent will respond fast, and you have to respond fast too.

If you try to train how to deal with your opponent's jab and cross combo, do you want him to throw a slow 1,2 combo, or do you want him to throw a fast 1,2 combo? If you ask him to throw a slow 1,2 combo, how long do you want to continue this kind of training? After you are good at dealing with combat speed combo, will you ever want to go back to the slow speed training?

If you want to train hip throw counter. When your opponent spin into you, you spin with him, interrupt one of his legs and take him down. Do you want him to move in slow speed so you can train your slow speed counter, or do you want him to move in combat speed so you can take advantage on his body momentum? If your opponent moves in slow speed, you won't be able to borrow his momentum, your counter may not work.

I don't like my opponet to throw a punch, freeze there, so I'll have all the time in the world to play my defense and counter. To me, to throw a punch and freeze in the thin air is bad habit. To deal with a frozon punch is also a bad habit. If I train this way, it will be neither good for my opponent nor good for myself. I want my training to have certain amount of "alert". If I don't concentrate, I'll get hit. I see no reason to reduce that level of "alert" even for the beginners level training stage. After a beginner has developed that "shirt on fire" feeling, he will be benefited by that for the rest of his life.

I wasn't saying don't train at full speed. The first part of my post said we do. The slow part was purely directed at the wrist locks.

 

[ballen0351]

The SC (Chinese wrestling) doesn't use "slow speed" development for the following reasons:

- Most of the throwing are developed from your opponent punches at your head. If your opponent punches you at combat speed, you have to respond with combat speed.
- In SC, it's better to do it not too perfect in fast speed than to do in perfect in slow speed. To have courage to use your technique is important in the beginner training stage.
- Combat training is like "shirt catch on fire". There is no room for slow speed.
- The slow speed training is "bad habit" by itself. Either you can do your skill in combat speed or you can't, there is nothing in between.
- ...

What's the difference between a "scholar" and a "MAist"?

When a

- scholar takes a 10 questions test, he can start from Q1, Q2, ... If he has proble with Q5, he can skip it. After he had finished Q10, he can come back to Q5.
- knife stabs toward a MAist's chest, he has only 1/4 second to react. After 1/4 second, either he is dead or he is still alive, there is nothing in between.

The "speed" is not important for a scholar. For a MAist, the speed is extreamly important and should be addressed as early as possible in the training.

I disagree with that. Even in SWAT School training we started shoot houses slowly 1st standing in the room shooting, then slowly walking in alone, then walking in pairs then teams, then once you get it down you pick up the pace like a well oiled machine. I cant think of anything Taught a full speed from day one. Driving you start slow in a parking lot or side street not the interstate at 80mph, Shooting we started slow fire pretty close and work out way to faster and more distance, Judo we start throws slowly just fitting first and then lifting and setting back down long before we ever even throw anyone. Once you get the basics down you speed up and go harder. So day one might be 10% day 10 might be 40% day 200 might be at 90% speed and power.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

So day one might be 10% day 10 might be 40% day 200 might be at 90% speed and power.

That can be a valid training path too. It's just not used in the Chinese wrestling system.

We all want to achieve 100% speed. The question is before we can reach to that level, which one is better?

1. 60% speed with 80% correctness? or
2. 80% speed with 60% correctness?

If we map this into striking art and if we can only choose one from another, which one do we prefer to have?

1. 60% speed with 80% power? or
2. 80% speed with 60% power?

During that stage, if we have to use our skill to defend ourselves, which one will give us better chance to survive? I'm a strong believer that training should be just like fighting. I do enjoy that "shirt on fire" feeling very much.

 

[lklawson]

At this years Dog Brothers Gathering, several of the fighters were taking a "stick" approach to fighting with aluminum knives, Crafty kept yelling "fight like you actually want to live through this fight."

I've been informed that this is a frequent thorn cited by him. Last time I heard it told, he was "casually" remarking something like, "hmmm... lot's of times both guys are 'dying' in these fights." or something similar.

While it still drives me bananas, it's (slightly) comforting to know that, at least, the problem isn't unique to the stuff I teach.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I can see that. I think the issue is really with the attitude of the asker, more than the request itself.

Most of the junior students that ask to spar me ask because they want someone that will challenge them and offer feedback and suggestions. We have one little yellow-belt girl who asks to spar with me every time, because she's scared of sparring and feels safe with me.

I find that sparring seniors is generally very beneficial for juniors. In the context of an organized class, I feel that anyone can spar with anyone. And you always have a couple of students who are friendly and ask to spar each other just because they enjoy sparring each other.

It was in the context of an after or outside of class "invitation" that I was thinking of. Or the element of challenge rather than request, as you had mentioned.

But then there are sometimes students who want to spar a black belt or teacher as some kind of ego thing - they act like "if I can beat that person then I'm better than all the other students". That's when it's rude.

Agreed.

 

[ballen0351]

That can be a valid training path too. It's just not used in the Chinese wrestling system.

We all want to achieve 100% speed. The question is before we can reach to that level, which one is better?

1. 60% speed with 80% correctness? or
2. 80% speed with 60% correctness?

If we map this into striking art and if we can only choose one from another, which one do we prefer to have?

1. 60% speed with 80% power? or
2. 80% speed with 60% power?

During that stage, if we have to use our skill to defend ourselves, which one will give us better chance to survive? I'm a strong believer that training should be just like fighting. I do enjoy that "shirt on fire" feeling very much.

I've always been taught "smooth is fast". Meaning get it right and proper technique will build speed. That's the way the military trains that's the way police train that's the way SWAT trains "smooth is fast". Throwing someone into the fire without showing then what they are supposed to do is dangerous and stupid.

 

[WaterGal]

I doubt anyone could train wrist locks full speed without severely damaging their partner. You can train against resistance but you'll quickly run out of students if they go flat chat.

Ha, well, true. But relatively slow or fast. I think a beginner should start out very slow with a wrist lock and take their time doing it carefully step by step ("grab here, twist like this, turn the body like this") and applying very gradually. Then later, as they and their partners get more skilled and comfortable with giving and receiving that kind of technique, to go faster and harder with it.

 

[WaterGal]

At this years Dog Brothers Gathering, several of the fighters were taking a "stick" approach to fighting with aluminum knives, Crafty kept yelling "fight like you actually want to live through this fight." You could see where guys with predominately stick or unarmed backgrounds weren't getting the idea of "no trading."

Hah, reminds of a while back when I watched a couple of guys I know (not our students) practice free-style sparring where one had a wooden knife and the other was unarmed, and one of them kept grabbing the blade. I didn't feel like it was my place to say anything, but I kept thinking "man, you do that in real life and you're going to be in big trouble".