Some thoughts about discussing the martial arts

[Steve]

Chris, as I said, some of your facts are actually opinions derived from a fact. That's an important distinction. Two experts can interpret facts differently.

Regarding definitions, I think I was pretty clear. But I'll try again. Understanding what you mean when you use a term is helpful and necessary. Agreeing with your definition is not necessary. Approaching each discussion with the attitude that your definitions are the only possible definition for the term causes a lot of misunderstanding. English just doesn't work that way.

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[ballen0351]

mabye re read what an appeal from authority actually is.

i don't think you have ever provided an external source.

Depending on the topic you don't need one. Back to my example of illegal drug I'm an expert I don't provide external sources to back that up I am the external source my training knowledge and experience is all that's needed on the topic. There are people here that are experts or at least very knowledgeable on topics, your free to agree or not.

 

[ballen0351]

Regarding definitions, I think I was pretty clear. But I'll try again. Understanding what you mean when you use a term is helpful and necessary. Agreeing with your definition is not necessary. Approaching each discussion with the attitude that your definitions are the only possible definition for the term causes a lot of misunderstanding. English just doesn't work that way.

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English does work that way. Its really hard to have conversations with someone when they tell you a cat has fur, 4 legs, and barks. Words do have accepted meanings your not entitled to change them to suit your needs.

 

[Cirdan]

You have to go pretty far outside accepted meanings in the language that is the Queens English to make sense of say... tiger riding samurai. Still waiting for more info on that interesting topic by the way.

 

[seasoned]

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[Steve]

I think the thread discussing the meaning of tma is a good encapsulation of what I'm referring to. Started by Brian vancise iirc. On phone so can't post link, but that discussion is relevant I think.

Edit: Here is one Rich Parsons started. Interesting discussion that highlights how people, many of whom are experts to varying degrees, have opinions about what a term means that in some cases directly contradict each other:

What makes an art Traditional MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community

I'll see if I can find the one I'm recalling, but searching on this forum is a pain.

Here's the one I was thinking of:

What Is A TMA MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community

FWIW, my post (#10) is the most correct. If you disagree, I think you just need to read it again and surely you'll come around.


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[drop bear]

Depending on the topic you don't need one. Back to my example of illegal drug I'm an expert I don't provide external sources to back that up I am the external source my training knowledge and experience is all that's needed on the topic. There are people here that are experts or at least very knowledgeable on topics, your free to agree or not.

never. Not once.

am i free to suggest that is a logical fallacy?

 

[Steve]

English does work that way. Its really hard to have conversations with someone when they tell you a cat has fur, 4 legs, and barks. Words do have accepted meanings your not entitled to change them to suit your needs.

Words often have multiple meanings. Often, a word also connotes much more. And some words are general containers for other words, while others are much more specific. And the definitions of some words are very clear and concrete, while the definitions of other words really depends upon who is being asked.

So, as I said, it's very important to know what YOU mean when you use a word, so that I don't understand what you're saying. But that does not mean I have to agree with your definition. For example, Traditional Martial Art is a term often used but which means different things to different people. Martial Art is, itself, a term we can't agree on, even though everyone here trains in one (we think).

 

[Tony Dismukes]

English does work that way. Its really hard to have conversations with someone when they tell you a cat has fur, 4 legs, and barks. Words do have accepted meanings your not entitled to change them to suit your needs.

Words often have multiple meanings. Often, a word also connotes much more. And some words are general containers for other words, while others are much more specific. And the definitions of some words are very clear and concrete, while the definitions of other words really depends upon who is being asked.

I'm with Steve on this one. The meanings of words are not dictated by a central authority. They evolve within a given community. Words can have multiple meanings depending on the context and the speaker. If the word denotes a category, that category may have fuzzy boundaries.

That doesn't mean you can, like Humpty Dumpty, assign any arbitrary meaning to a word that you feel like. (At least not if you want to communicate effectively.) If I tell you that my cat has thick, grey, wrinkled skin, weighs 8 tons, and has a prehensile trunk, then you are entirely within your bounds to point out that I am speaking of an elephant. The commonly understood meaning of "cat" does not stretch far enough to cover pachyderms.

On the other hand, if you ask for a definition of "TMA" or a list of what arts that category might encompass, you aren't likely to get the same agreement that you would if you asked about "cat." Many people consider TKD, Shotokan, and Judo to be "Traditional Martial Arts", others do not. Some apply the label to an art based on its age, others based on certain cultural signifiers and values. Unless the martial arts community eventually comes to a consensus on what the term covers, then "TMA" lacks a lot of communicative utility.

 

[Hanzou]

Yeah… as I said, you wouldn't understand what I was saying.

I'll try to elaborate here… the idea of something being "wrong" is entirely within the context of the art itself. A technique can be ineffective, impractical, flawed, poor, or anything else… but still not "wrong". But here's the important part… "wrong" can only be seen from the inside. You don't know that Hapkido system… you don't know their syllabus… you don't know how it was supposed to be done in that art… you cannot possibly know if it was being done "wrong" or not. You can say that it's flawed, poor, or anything of that ilk… but the idea that you can know whether a technique is right or wrong from another system is frankly beyond your ken.

To put it another way, in my time in BJJ, I was taught a number of things that would be "wrong" from the perspective of my other arts… and some of the things from my other art would be considered "wrong" in BJJ… but, within the systems themselves, they were both completely "right"… even despite the fact that they were almost completely opposite to each other.

The armbar was based on the concept of a Hapkido stylist fighting a grappler. That's not how we do armbars from the mount in Bjj, and there aren't too many other arts that utilize the armbar from mount that didn't pull it from Bjj in the first place. That's how I knew it was performed wrong.

The Hapkido stylists who participated in the thread also said the technique was performed wrong. So really, what point are you trying to make here? The "grappler's armbar" was wrong, and the Hapkido stylists said the counter to it was wrong. So in either case, you have no point.

Er… talking about a different thread there… do try to keep up…

Actually you're still talking about the same thread, because I've only started one Hapkido thread.

And, for the record, it was the membership, particularly the established ones, who were offended… or, at least, concerned over the tendencies you've been showing.

In your opinion....

The idea of that technique being less than optimal wasn't the issue… it was the way you introduced it, the way you set up the thread, the tone you began with, the fact that you had the primary aim of ridicule something that wasn't matching your standards… frankly, it was a cowardly and petty OP… and far below anything that is genuinely designed to generate good conversation.

Interesting that the Hapkido stylists who participated didn't view that the same way.

The tiny detail that you started the thread is bluntly just your ego railing against the wind, trying once again to paint yourself as the hero, despite actually being the villain of the piece. You're not the hero. You're the catalyst… but not in the way you think.

So I'm the villain because I pointed out a flawed technique that everyone else in the thread also agreed was flawed? Interesting.

You mean Steve butting heads with Ballen again? Really? Frankly, I was on Ballen's side… he was rightly calling you out, your own admissions backed that up, and Steve chose to try to call Ballen out on his calling you… Bluntly, Steve was in the wrong, in my opinion.

So you think its okay for someone who has no interest in the discussion to attempt to derail the discussion because he doesn't like the contents? Ballen isn't a grappler, and he doesn't do Hapkido. His only purpose in that thread was to derail it far enough to get it closed. Again, the grapplers and the Hapkido practitioners were having a productive discussion and comparing technique. I find it laughable that you think its perfectly okay to derail that simply because you think the OP was ulterior motives.

 

[K-man]

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Please review our sniping policy here. Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.

Wes Yager
MT Moderator[/QUOTE]
Thank you. I have availed myself of that option, interestingly, the first time I have had to do that in 6 years. Sad I've had to do it as I like to read all the posts.

 

[K-man]

I'm with Steve on this one. The meanings of words are not dictated by a central authority. They evolve within a given community. Words can have multiple meanings depending on the context and the speaker. If the word denotes a category, that category may have fuzzy boundaries.

That doesn't mean you can, like Humpty Dumpty, assign any arbitrary meaning to a word that you feel like. (At least not if you want to communicate effectively.) If I tell you that my cat has thick, grey, wrinkled skin, weighs 8 tons, and has a prehensile trunk, then you are entirely within your bounds to point out that I am speaking of an elephant. The commonly understood meaning of "cat" does not stretch far enough to cover pachyderms.

On the other hand, if you ask for a definition of "TMA" or a list of what arts that category might encompass, you aren't likely to get the same agreement that you would if you asked about "cat." Many people consider TKD, Shotokan, and Judo to be "Traditional Martial Arts", others do not. Some apply the label to an art based on its age, others based on certain cultural signifiers and values. Unless the martial arts community eventually comes to a consensus on what the term covers, then "TMA" lacks a lot of communicative utility.

True there can be exceptions. Well done on finding that video!

Context is a huge part of online discussion. There are a number of difference in meanings of words between American English and English. Try talking about 'fanny packs' or 'rooting' over here and you'll get some raised eyebrows even if you are use the terms within your context. I use terms that are in common use here, in all circles, and the software ****s them out. Unfortunately not all people have studied English enough to recognise the idiosyncrasies of our common language.

I agree with you about agreement on definitions. That is what I suggest that in some instances where discussion is likely to be spirited, the topic be clearly defined. TMA is a classic example here. If someone wants to discuss 'World of Warcraft' as a TMA, fine. Just do it in the context of video games excluding all other MAs.

 

[Steve]

Depending on the topic you don't need one. Back to my example of illegal drug I'm an expert I don't provide external sources to back that up I am the external source my training knowledge and experience is all that's needed on the topic. There are people here that are experts or at least very knowledgeable on topics, your free to agree or not.

Your expertise isn't established to the satisfaction of the court in some way?


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[ballen0351]

pork chop oven mit pine tree dog fish bumble bee

 

[drop bear]

I'm with Steve on this one. The meanings of words are not dictated by a central authority. They evolve within a given community. Words can have multiple meanings depending on the context and the speaker. If the word denotes a category, that category may have fuzzy boundaries.

That doesn't mean you can, like Humpty Dumpty, assign any arbitrary meaning to a word that you feel like. (At least not if you want to communicate effectively.) If I tell you that my cat has thick, grey, wrinkled skin, weighs 8 tons, and has a prehensile trunk, then you are entirely within your bounds to point out that I am speaking of an elephant. The commonly understood meaning of "cat" does not stretch far enough to cover pachyderms.

On the other hand, if you ask for a definition of "TMA" or a list of what arts that category might encompass, you aren't likely to get the same agreement that you would if you asked about "cat." Many people consider TKD, Shotokan, and Judo to be "Traditional Martial Arts", others do not. Some apply the label to an art based on its age, others based on certain cultural signifiers and values. Unless the martial arts community eventually comes to a consensus on what the term covers, then "TMA" lacks a lot of communicative utility.

you get that with the street sport debate and self defence. Where some fights count and some don't.

which becomes crazy to debate. Because then every thing you present is not really the street even if it is on the street.

 

[Cirdan]

Two protons expelled at each coupling site creates the mode of force, the embryo becomes a fish that we don't enter until a plate, we're here to experience evolve the little toe, atrophy, don't ask me how I'll be dead in a thousand light years, thank you, thank you. Genesis turns to its source, reduction occurs stepwise though the essence is all one. End of line. FTL system check, diagnostic functions within parameters repeats the harlequin the agony exquisite, the colors run the path of ashes, neuronal network run fifty-two percent of heat exchanger cross-collateralized with hyper-dimensional matrix, upper senses, repair ordered relay to zero zero zero zero. The excited state decays by vibrational relaxation into the first excited singlet state. Yes, yes and merrily we go. Reduce atmospheric nitrogen by 0.03%. It is not much consolation that society will pick up the bits, leaving us at eight modern where punishment, rather than interdiction, is paramount. Please, cut the fuse. They will not harm their own. End of line. Limiting diffusions to two dimensions increases the number of evolutionary jumps within the species. Rise and measure the temple of the five. Transformation is the goal. They will not harm their own. Data-font synchronization complete.

 

[Tez3]

I've been to Street, it's a really lovely place, not in the least violent. Street Somerset - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

 

[Steve]

True there can be exceptions. Well done on finding that video!

Context is a huge part of online discussion. There are a number of difference in meanings of words between American English and English. Try talking about 'fanny packs' or 'rooting' over here and you'll get some raised eyebrows even if you are use the terms within your context. I use terms that are in common use here, in all circles, and the software ****s them out. Unfortunately not all people have studied English enough to recognise the idiosyncrasies of our common language.

I agree with you about agreement on definitions. That is what I suggest that in some instances where discussion is likely to be spirited, the topic be clearly defined. TMA is a classic example here. If someone wants to discuss 'World of Warcraft' as a TMA, fine. Just do it in the context of video games excluding all other MAs.

Here's a great case in point. I wouldn't consider myself an authority on all things English, but I do have a degree in English Lit with a minor in philosophy, and spend much of my days communicating in writing as a core function of my job. I'm literate and have a pretty good command of the English language.

I've also spent the better part of 20 years working with people of all nationalities and varying degrees of facility with the language, often working through interpreters, relay services or even written notes back and forth in some cases. Add to this that many of these people are disabled in some way, either physically or mentally. So, I have a lot of experience communicating in English under difficult conditions with people who have little to no capacity for the language.

So, the English language is kind of in my wheelhouse. And I disagree with you. Presuming, based upon your remark about people who have studied Engilsh, you are also at least something of an expert on the language, this is a perfect example of where two "experts" can disagree fundamentally.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Folks the tread is about discussing the arts.
It is NOT about smashing faces with conversation or calling people dishonest.
Please keep the discussion friendly and respectful

Take personal feuds to pm or better still learn to disagree

 

[ballen0351]

Your expertise isn't established to the satisfaction of the court in some way?


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Sure I testify to my experience how many search warrants I've written, how many undercover buys I've made, the quantity of drugs, the felony arrests I've made the classes I've attended the length of my career all factor in. Just like here people tell us the style they train how long they gave trained the rank they hold the seminars they hav3 attended the people they have trained with etc. I've never been asked to prove anything I assume defense attorney check up on what I say and if I were to be caught in a lie my career is over I'll be fired. If someone here gets caught in a lie they usually leave or their word is meaningless.