So what's a better "test" for martial arts other than MMA?

[Juany118]

I've used mine twice, in spite of no such risky behavior. I know several others with similar records.


Gerry Seymour
Shojin-Ryu, Nihon Goshin Aikido

I think part of the problem is that people don't realize sometimes how diverse our country is, let alone the world and part of that diversity is varying levels of risk. The number of victims of violent crimes in the US are about equal to the total number of accidents. The thing is depending on where you live you may be insulated to a greater degree from such violence than someone who lives someplace else. The same can apply to where you work. If you commute to the suburban Corporate park by car you are more insulated than the person who takes the train then walks from the Station to the Office Building in the inner city and so on.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Which arts are best is subjective. But, you can certainly put an end to the idea that all training methodologies are equal. They are not, I believe, and if the right questions were asked and stats were kept, we'd have a way to know for sure.

Once again, it would be very interesting to me to see violent crime data that includes some additional information: whether the person trained in martial arts or not, and if so, what style or styles. Heck, I think it would be very informative if the question included information about related activities that aren't actually martial arts, such as parkour training, tae bo, cardio-kickboxing, crossfit or what have you. My belief is that we would find that most martial arts training has no more of an effect on whether a person successfully or unsuccessfully defends him/herself than any other routine fitness. I wouldn't be surprised if it is less, given that many martial arts schools de-emphasize fitness as a part of their instruction. And I think some styles, related by training methodology, would rise to the top. Of course, if the study is objective, I might be surprised at the results, and would welcome that, too.

To be clear, if you think this is TMA vs anything, you're off base. I have said many times I think any style will work if it's trained well. It's the training methodologies, including (and maybe particularly) an openness to testing in a variety of ways, which makes people successful. Some styles welcome this. Some styles discourage it.

I would be very interested in this study, and am open to any ideas about how we could make it happen.

Unfortunately, I suspect the statistics wouldn't reach a reliable level of significance, given the relatively small overlap in the populations. If we could get unreported incidents, we'd have more info - maybe even enough for significance.


Gerry Seymour
Shojin-Ryu, Nihon Goshin Aikido

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah but fighting works a bit differently to sparring. A lot of what shouldn't work againt a knife does due to the speed in which it is done.

Sparring can be full-speed. I suspect the higher reliability in the dojo is at least as much due to the lower risk and lack of surprise attacks during calm moments.


Gerry Seymour
Shojin-Ryu, Nihon Goshin Aikido

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think part of the problem is that people don't realize sometimes how diverse our country is, let alone the world and part of that diversity is varying levels of risk. The number of victims of violent crimes in the US are about equal to the total number of accidents. The thing is depending on where you live you may be insulated to a greater degree from such violence than someone who lives someplace else. The same can apply to where you work. If you commute to the suburban Corporate park by car you are more insulated than the person who takes the train then walks from the Station to the Office Building in the inner city and so on.

And many incidents will go unreported. Those that are successful defenses likely won't show as assaults/violent crimes even if reported, unless they were particularly violent.


Gerry Seymour
Shojin-Ryu, Nihon Goshin Aikido

 

[Juany118]

And many incidents will go unreported. Those that are successful defenses likely won't show as assaults/violent crimes even if reported, unless they were particularly violent.


Gerry Seymour
Shojin-Ryu, Nihon Goshin Aikido

Just for clarification the number I was using is actually based on an annual Beurau Of Justice Statistics study that accounts for under and unreported violent victimizations. The FBI stats only address reported aggravated assaults and robberies with weapons (as an example). I suspect though, that as you say, successful defense is one of many factors for unreported violence though

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Yeah but fighting works a bit differently to sparring. A lot of what shouldn't work againt a knife does due to the speed in which it is done.

It all depends on what you consider sparring...

At my school we go all out like the above, the only difference is we use sticks similar to these Padded Stick during the stick sparring so we only bruise and don't break skin but we use rigid plastic knives with the edges covered in chalk to confirm hits after a round...none of that rubber stuff. If you somehow lose your weapon the fight doesn't stop, you are expected to continue. That doesn't mean trying to pick up your weapon as that leaves you open to attack, that means going after your opponent's and going for control so they can't continue to use it against you.

It really seems a lot of your views of knife/weapons training is based on not really training with them properly in the first place.

Sparring can be full-speed. I suspect the higher reliability in the dojo is at least as much due to the lower risk and lack of surprise attacks during calm moments.


Gerry Seymour
Shojin-Ryu, Nihon Goshin Aikido

Drop bear can correct me if I'm wrong, but I suspect what he's talking about re: "speed" is pre-emptive tactics executed at close quarters while the knife wielder is still deploying or brandishing the weapon and has not made the mental transition from "don't mess with me or I'll cut you" to "I'm going to kill you now." In the context of the scenarios in which drop bear has likely encountered knives and the sorts of tactics he has described, this would seem likely.

 

[Juany118]

Sparring can be full-speed. I suspect the higher reliability in the dojo is at least as much due to the lower risk and lack of surprise attacks during calm moments.


Gerry Seymour
Shojin-Ryu, Nihon Goshin Aikido

I also suspect it's because of "protection". As an example our sparring is sometimes a bit more aggressive than a Dog Brother's Gathering because we know a plastic core foam padded stick is far less likely to actually break skin or bone and controlled aggression is key to defense. You still want to "win" so you defend but you can actually be defending against more aggressive attacks, since you are less concerned about injuring a partner, and so (imo at least) some of your defenses are actually tested more and thus improved.

 

[Juany118]

Drop bear can correct me if I'm wrong, but I suspect what he's talking about re: "speed" is pre-emptive tactics executed at close quarters while the knife wielder is still deploying or brandishing the weapon and has not made the mental transition from "don't mess with me or I'll cut you" to "I'm going to kill you now." In the context of the scenarios in which drop bear has likely encountered knives and the sorts of tactics he has described, this would seem likely.

The only problem I have with that though is that in the encounters you will have in that kind of environment you can't tell the difference from that transition and one where a person was only posing/threatening to begin with. Since he had one such encounter it is quite possible the person never actually intended to use the weapon in the first place. So was it "speed" that made the difference or lack of intent on the part of the attacker?

This is why I am a huge fan of training to lock up the arm as the suspect attempts to deploy. If the weapon is deployed then I address it as if the person has already made the transition to "I kill you." This way I avoid the fuzziness. /Shrug

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Drop bear can correct me if I'm wrong, but I suspect what he's talking about re: "speed" is pre-emptive tactics executed at close quarters while the knife wielder is still deploying or brandishing the weapon and has not made the mental transition from "don't mess with me or I'll cut you" to "I'm going to kill you now." In the context of the scenarios in which drop bear has likely encountered knives and the sorts of tactics he has described, this would seem likely.

Ah, I may have read it backwards, then. I thought he was saying speed made the defense work too well in the dojo. Your read would play the other way - defending before the attack materializes to improve the odds.


Gerry Seymour
Shojin-Ryu, Nihon Goshin Aikido

 

[drop bear]

Sparring can be full-speed. I suspect the higher reliability in the dojo is at least as much due to the lower risk and lack of surprise attacks during calm moments.


Gerry Seymour
Shojin-Ryu, Nihon Goshin Aikido

Sparring flat knacker changes the game in that you cant react as much as you need to preempt. Someone puts a rush on you and you have eaten four shots before you can get a simple defence like hands up. Let alone a complicated one.

Supprise adds even more to that reaction time.

This is one of the usable differences between street and sport.

So here is a takedown that does not work. One handed arms free. you can do anything and everything to defend it.

Exept it was done quickly.

This kind of gells with my experiences. Where i have seen guys dumped and done little more than flail in the 2 seconds it takes to gain a dominant position.

Now imagine that was a knife. the police officer is at risk for 2 seconds. And then at less risk.

If I grab the arm I may be at risk for 3 seconds which is more time for me to get stabbed.

Now there are of course circumstances where one works and one doesn't. But those who suggest that one always works and one doesn't do not understand the mechanics of real world fighting.

This is one way of testing the grounding someone has in real world fighting.

 

[drop bear]

Ah, I may have read it backwards, then. I thought he was saying speed made the defense work too well in the dojo. Your read would play the other way - defending before the attack materializes to improve the odds.


Gerry Seymour
Shojin-Ryu, Nihon Goshin Aikido

Well in my particular case he was occupied by stabbing someone else. but i have seen a dude push a guy over who had a knife.

 

[drop bear]

Drop bear can correct me if I'm wrong, but I suspect what he's talking about re: "speed" is pre-emptive tactics executed at close quarters while the knife wielder is still deploying or brandishing the weapon and has not made the mental transition from "don't mess with me or I'll cut you" to "I'm going to kill you now." In the context of the scenarios in which drop bear has likely encountered knives and the sorts of tactics he has described, this would seem likely.

Even from I am going to cut you. To cutting. Is a transition.

Think how many times a punch has landed during a double leg in a street fight.

Mike tyson with the flurry finish. It is a lot of information to process in an incredibly short time.

 

[drop bear]

I've used mine twice, in spite of no such risky behavior. I know several others with similar records.


Gerry Seymour
Shojin-Ryu, Nihon Goshin Aikido

Sorry not a large enough sample.

Was akido invented for the battlefield?

Apparently that counts towards something.

 

[drop bear]

The only problem I have with that though is that in the encounters you will have in that kind of environment you can't tell the difference from that transition and one where a person was only posing/threatening to begin with. Since he had one such encounter it is quite possible the person never actually intended to use the weapon in the first place. So was it "speed" that made the difference or lack of intent on the part of the attacker?

This is why I am a huge fan of training to lock up the arm as the suspect attempts to deploy. If the weapon is deployed then I address it as if the person has already made the transition to "I kill you." This way I avoid the fuzziness. /Shrug

So now your method is control of the limbs during a fight before there is a weapon involved. Unarmed vs unarmed? I mean that works. But it is hardly removed from the sporting arena.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Sparring flat knacker changes the game in that you cant react as much as you need to preempt. Someone puts a rush on you and you have eaten four shots before you can get a simple defence like hands up. Let alone a complicated one.

Supprise adds even more to that reaction time.

This is one of the usable differences between street and sport.

So here is a takedown that does not work. One handed arms free. you can do anything and everything to defend it.

Exept it was done quickly.

This kind of gells with my experiences. Where i have seen guys dumped and done little more than flail in the 2 seconds it takes to gain a dominant position.

Now imagine that was a knife. the police officer is at risk for 2 seconds. And then at less risk.

If I grab the arm I may be at risk for 3 seconds which is more time for me to get stabbed.

Now there are of course circumstances where one works and one doesn't. But those who suggest that one always works and one doesn't do not understand the mechanics of real world fighting.

This is one way of testing the grounding someone has in real world fighting.

I'll have to look at the video later - apparently this hotel's WiFi just doesn't like your video postings. I'll try to remember to come back and look at it - your post will make more sense with the video.

In the meantime, I'll weigh in with my opinion on the principles of defense against a blade. I work from a couple of principles. The most important one is that a defender may fixate on the knife, and so we practice most of our knife defenses around keeping the arm once we have it. The second is that we may not see the blade, at all, so we practice most of our "empty hand" defense with the idea of keeping a knife away, as well.

The first principle can be met by any techniques that control the arm and allow you to finish without letting go of the arm, and MMA certainly has enough options there. Of course, if you don't fixate, all kinds of other options open up, though I still prefer to keep the arm if I have reasonable control of it. The second principle is where specific knife defense really pays off. If I am realistic about punches, there are many I can allow to get through, at least partially. A weak punch could reasonably be ignored unless it's coming to the face or groin, but if there was a knife in it, we can't let that punch in. Since we can't be sure we'll see the knife, the principle (obviously not always practicable) is to never let a punch get in, even if it's weak.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Sorry not a large enough sample.

Was akido invented for the battlefield?

Apparently that counts towards something.

Not a large enough sample for what, precisely?

 

[drop bear]

I'll have to look at the video later - apparently this hotel's WiFi just doesn't like your video postings. I'll try to remember to come back and look at it - your post will make more sense with the video.

In the meantime, I'll weigh in with my opinion on the principles of defense against a blade. I work from a couple of principles. The most important one is that a defender may fixate on the knife, and so we practice most of our knife defenses around keeping the arm once we have it. The second is that we may not see the blade, at all, so we practice most of our "empty hand" defense with the idea of keeping a knife away, as well.

The first principle can be met by any techniques that control the arm and allow you to finish without letting go of the arm, and MMA certainly has enough options there. Of course, if you don't fixate, all kinds of other options open up, though I still prefer to keep the arm if I have reasonable control of it. The second principle is where specific knife defense really pays off. If I am realistic about punches, there are many I can allow to get through, at least partially. A weak punch could reasonably be ignored unless it's coming to the face or groin, but if there was a knife in it, we can't let that punch in. Since we can't be sure we'll see the knife, the principle (obviously not always practicable) is to never let a punch get in, even if it's weak.

If you enter into a premis that they will fixate on the knife. Then you have to operate on concepts that make them fixate on that knife.

How do you go about making that strategy work?

 

[Juany118]

@Ironbear24 if your dislike was my comment about performance art I was talking, mainly, about certain Kung Fu schools I know of. Some of them spend a lot of time training people on various strikes that require serious building up of the muscle, bone and ligaments. As an example...

Go to the 45 second mark and you will see what I mean. My Sifu's Master did that toughening for bil sau. He can thrust his fingers into his head repeatedly and you will hear an audible "thunk" with each impact from across the room. I just started doing similar training for bil sau and phoenix eye fist but am only up to a canvas bag full of rice. Thing is how many people do that kind of training if it is not "required"?

As such some schools, or students in the schools chose to train mainly for things like this.

Which are choreographed and this

Its not to say they can't use it for self defense, only that they have a different focus in training and/or study than a school and student teaching with a focus on self-defense/combat.

PS, the bottom two videos are from Kuo Shu, if you live on the east coast it's worth the trip to Maryland for the weekend.

 

[Juany118]

Sorry not a large enough sample.

Was akido invented for the battlefield?

Apparently that counts towards something.

First in his case, the sample size is actually simply a proof of concept so sample size is not relevant. If you already have a proven track record for techniques used for their intended purpose via extensive testing in the ring, on the battlefield etc. then an individual being successful is simply confirming the results already known.

With that out of the way Aikido is like Judo in that both are born of Jujitsu which in turn was born of the battlefield. Sensei Ueshiba had studied Daito-Ryu Aiki-jujutsu, Yagyū Shingan-ryū and Tenjin Shinyo-ryu, though admittedly Aikido is most heavily influenced by the first.

As for the sarcastic statement about "counting for something" if I was to say "well MMA was born of competition..." in the same manner you would be having a meltdown about now. As I have said before, BOTH are completely valid paths for development and validation and that to say that MMA has a relative weakness is not to say it is a flawed or ineffective martial art. All martial arts have some relative weakness. MMA's just happens to be dealing with weapons.

This all brings me to a specific question in two parts.

1. Are you arguing this point, as Steve stated, because you believe anytime someone may make a critique about MMA that they are attacking the art as a whole and inferring that it is ineffective for real world self defense or
2. You honestly believe that MMA has no relative weaknesses and is by far the best self defense system in the world?

If you are arguing point 1 I am not one of those people you have to worry about, nor is @gpseymour

 

[Juany118]

I'll have to look at the video later - apparently this hotel's WiFi just doesn't like your video postings. I'll try to remember to come back and look at it - your post will make more sense with the video.

In the meantime, I'll weigh in with my opinion on the principles of defense against a blade. I work from a couple of principles. The most important one is that a defender may fixate on the knife, and so we practice most of our knife defenses around keeping the arm once we have it. The second is that we may not see the blade, at all, so we practice most of our "empty hand" defense with the idea of keeping a knife away, as well.

The first principle can be met by any techniques that control the arm and allow you to finish without letting go of the arm, and MMA certainly has enough options there. Of course, if you don't fixate, all kinds of other options open up, though I still prefer to keep the arm if I have reasonable control of it. The second principle is where specific knife defense really pays off. If I am realistic about punches, there are many I can allow to get through, at least partially. A weak punch could reasonably be ignored unless it's coming to the face or groin, but if there was a knife in it, we can't let that punch in. Since we can't be sure we'll see the knife, the principle (obviously not always practicable) is to never let a punch get in, even if it's weak.

I think another principle is to NOT panic. You can get stabbed a couple times, even slashed a number of times and remain alive a function, especially when faced with what you will typically face when you are dealing with the most common knife on the street, the pocket folder. There are exceptions of course, if major blood vessels get ruptured you can bleed out quite quickly, but chances are in a real fight with your average folder you may not even be initially aware you were stabbed and/or cut until you see the blood so unless one of those major blood vessels or organs is hit keep on fighting, because you can for a time.