So what's a better "test" for martial arts other than MMA?

[drop bear]

You are once again being obtuse. Self defense training addresses what people will commonly attack you with. It won't be common for multiple people to each have a knife and attack you.

I will not question whether you have or not used MMA to deal with a knife, but I will ask you what does MMA normally do about knife? What training does MMA offer for knife defense?

How often have you been attacked by a knife to consider it common?

 

[Mephisto]

You are once again being obtuse. Self defense training addresses what people will commonly attack you with. It won't be common for multiple people to each have a knife and attack you.

I will not question whether you have or not used MMA to deal with a knife, but I will ask you what does MMA normally do about knife? What training does MMA offer for knife defense?

What if we just forget about the knives for a second? The problem with knives or multiple opponents, or multiple opponents with knives, is there are no high percentage techniques. You have options and it's better to train something but an unarmed person will never have the advtanage over an armed person and most likely won't have the advantage over multiple people. Train your knives, I do it and enjoy it but I have no illusions about how an knife encounter can turn out.

What do you think is the best method for testing empty hand fighting ability? Drills? Even alive drills are limited. They have established roles and confines, a ruleset if you will. Not to mention you don't have a large pool of people you don't know who are willing to test you and try their hardest to make sure you fail this test, as someone might do if you fought them in real life.

 

[JP3]

I wasn't referring to bouncing, since you didn't refer to it in your post. You referred to fighting on the stairs. If I have my choice and it's a single person, I'd rather be below them, where I have access to more of their targets than they have of mine, and I'm in a good position to take their balance. I can probably control them to fall backwards (so not toward me) by the way I control their legs. If they fall toward me, I can use that, too - it's part of the training.

Mind you, I've never trained fighting on stairs, and I'm actually wondering if I could work out a safe way to do so, with staggered stacks of mats. It would be an interesting experiment.

The start of the situation was due to my working as a bouncer in my mis-spent youth, however it was definitely a fight. And no, you cannot simply stack up mats to recreate it. Go to an apartment complex, get a student (or a teacher) and one of you stand about 1/3 of the way up, the other 2/3, and face each other up/down the stairs..... think about what you rather conclusorily posted, then come back and re-evaluate it would be my suggestion.

 

[Juany118]

I wasn't referring to bouncing, since you didn't refer to it in your post. You referred to fighting on the stairs. If I have my choice and it's a single person, I'd rather be below them, where I have access to more of their targets than they have of mine, and I'm in a good position to take their balance. I can probably control them to fall backwards (so not toward me) by the way I control their legs. If they fall toward me, I can use that, too - it's part of the training.

Mind you, I've never trained fighting on stairs, and I'm actually wondering if I could work out a safe way to do so, with staggered stacks of mats. It would be an interesting experiment.

Oh hell, I avoid em all together. The other day covering a fire escape entrance during a warrant service. But if forced to chose I chose above. Yes I lose targets but more than once I have seen someone willing to use another as a "sled", hell to be honest I did it once because I had no choice. Being on the "downside" creates a disadvantage I am simply not comfortable with, even with my personally paid for training AND the tools that the Dept. paid for on top of it.

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[Ironbear24]

Not to mention you don't have a large pool of people you don't know who are willing to test you and try their hardest to make sure you fail this test, as someone might do if you fought them in real life.

In a sense we do, we aim to harm each other during the tests, but not aim to kill or do any permanent harm for obvious reasons.

What if we just forget about the knives for a second?

Why should we? Knife defense is important because a knife or a sharp pointed object is an easy and readily available weapon, therefore it is a common thing to encounter.

But for the sake of your argument let's say knives do not exist in this world. No matter what you do, you cannot exactly replicate a life and death fight. We both admitted that already. This is why I said the best thing is high contact self defense drills that are not rehearsed because there you are not limited by gender or weight classes, or equipment. There are still some rules for the sake of not killing people but that will always exist.

Now going back to knives. You have trained with them and trained against them, do you not feel that you are better off now than if you have never trained that?

It comes down to the person who trains it will be better than someone who doesn't, it is that simple and that is what I am saying.

 

[Mephisto]

In a sense we do, we aim to harm each other during the tests, but not aim to kill or do any permanent harm for obvious reasons.



Why should we? Knife defense is important because a knife or a sharp pointed object is an easy and readily available weapon, therefore it is a common thing to encounter.

But for the sake of your argument let's say knives do not exist in this world. No matter what you do, you cannot exactly replicate a life and death fight. We both admitted that already. This is why I said the best thing is high contact self defense drills that are not rehearsed because there you are not limited by gender or weight classes, or equipment. There are still some rules for the sake of not killing people but that will always exist.

Now going back to knives. You have trained with them and trained against them, do you not feel that you are better off now than if you have never trained that?

It comes down to the person who trains it will be better than someone who doesn't, it is that simple and that is what I am saying.

A drill has rules, an mma competition has rules. I just don't happen to think you can take a drill to the same level you can take mma. The advantage of sports is the large pool of experienced practitioners, this brings crowds which bring money which brings research and investment into making a practitioner the strongest he can be. Those who don't compete at an elite level can still greatly benefit and learn from those that do.

As for knife training, I of course feel I'm better off with it. I feel though after I took up amateur boxing I'm several levels above where I was with just the knife training alone. Boxing has given me pressure tested attributes that enable me to apply them to knife training. I don't think it's bad for anyone to train knife, it's a scenario that could happen. I think empty hand fighting is more likely to happen, nearly every male I know has been in some form of empty hand fight. A small percentage of those guys have been in knife altercations. Using that reasoning an empty hand fight is much more likely than a knife fight.

Ultimately though it doesn't matter. This thread was about the best possible test of fighting ability. I think mma is the best we've got. You assure us your gym has something better. I'm always willing to reconsider my viewpoint. Do you happen to have any video by chance? Because you also have to consider what is available to the majority of people in this country and world wide. This is why I always recommend people who want fighting ability go to an established style of combat sport. Combat sports have an established set of measures and balances. Non competitive schools have no checks and balances in many or most cases so there is no assurance that you'll find a good school.

 

[Juany118]

In a sense we do, we aim to harm each other during the tests, but not aim to kill or do any permanent harm for obvious reasons.



Why should we? Knife defense is important because a knife or a sharp pointed object is an easy and readily available weapon, therefore it is a common thing to encounter.

But for the sake of your argument let's say knives do not exist in this world. No matter what you do, you cannot exactly replicate a life and death fight. We both admitted that already. This is why I said the best thing is high contact self defense drills that are not rehearsed because there you are not limited by gender or weight classes, or equipment. There are still some rules for the sake of not killing people but that will always exist.

Now going back to knives. You have trained with them and trained against them, do you not feel that you are better off now than if you have never trained that?

It comes down to the person who trains it will be better than someone who doesn't, it is that simple and that is what I am saying.

Let's forget about "bonafide" knives...

Now admittedly I study Kali (although a different lineage) but this is 100% truth. You basically can not go anywhere where a weapon isn't available if the person you face has the common sense to see it for what it is. As such, for rl self defense, if you aren't considering this fact you are asking for trouble in an uncontrolled environment.

 

[drop bear]

Let's forget about "bonafide" knives...

Now admittedly I study Kali (although a different lineage) but this is 100% truth. You basically can not go anywhere where a weapon isn't available if the person you face has the common sense to see it for what it is. As such, for rl self defense, if you aren't considering this fact you are asking for trouble in an uncontrolled environment.

But i have still used MMA to defend knives.

And i get that this might be an irritating response.

But it is also still the benchmark for self defense effectivness. So it is valid.

I mean validation of a method because i fought a guy once is defended to the death here.

And seriously if we are discussing improv weapons. I am constantly wrestling bottles and glasses off people.

 

[Ironbear24]

But i have still used MMA to defend knives.

And i get that this might be an irritating response.

But it is also still the benchmark for self defense effectivness. So it is valid.

I mean validation of a method because i fought a guy once is defended to the death here.

And seriously if we are discussing improv weapons. I am constantly wrestling bottles and glasses off people.

And I am asking you how does an MMA practitioner deal with knives. And do MMA coaches teach knife defense. You haven't answered either.

 

[Juany118]

But i have still used MMA to defend knives.

And i get that this might be an irritating response.

But it is also still the benchmark for self defense effectivness. So it is valid.

I mean validation of a method because i fought a guy once is defended to the death here.

And seriously if we are discussing improv weapons. I am constantly wrestling bottles and glasses off people.

But there has been an important question asked, how does MMA train it. You perform a job function that has given you experience beyond the gym. So I think it is reasonable to ask whether or not what you describe is MMA, or is it "you.". I suspect it has more to do with you, bit an answer would be appreciated one way or the other.

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[Ironbear24]

But there has been an important question asked, how does MMA train it. You perform a job function that has given you experience beyond the gym. So I think it is reasonable to ask whether or not what you describe is MMA, or is it "you.". I suspect it has more to do with you, bit an answer would be appreciated one way or the other.

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And he more than likely will not answer you. He doesn't want to admit that MMA has any flaws in it. Honestly as I said before. MMA shouldn't have to worry about knife or weapon defense for the same reasons boxing doesn't have to worry about kicking or wrestling.

They will not encounter it in their sport, but here we have someone claiming that it has the answers for that, so I would like to hear what those answers are.

 

[drop bear]

And I am asking you how does an MMA practitioner deal with knives. And do MMA coaches teach knife defense. You haven't answered either.

Grab the guy. Pitch them into the ground
Beat on them untill they give up the knife.

 

[drop bear]

And he more than likely will not answer you. He doesn't want to admit that MMA has any flaws in it. Honestly as I said before. MMA shouldn't have to worry about knife or weapon defense for the same reasons boxing doesn't have to worry about kicking or wrestling.

They will not encounter it in their sport, but here we have someone claiming that it has the answers for that, so I would like to hear what those answers are.

Not really. If we are discussing self defense. The bar for whether or not something works is not set very high.

And speaking of wrestling there are a few complete systems with no answer to a decent wrestler.


Speaking of unanswered questions. Have you faced an attack with one knife more often than you have faced a hundred people with knives?

You know that common attack.

 

[Ironbear24]

Not really. If we are discussing self defense. The bar for whether or not something works is not set very high.

And speaking of wrestling there are a few complete systems with no answer to a decent wrestler.

There are more than you believe.

 

[Ironbear24]

Grab the guy. Pitch them into the ground
Beat on them untill they give up the knife

Great way to get stabbed.

 

[Juany118]

Grab the guy. Pitch them into the ground
Beat on them untill they give up the knife.

That only works if the guy is more sound and and fury and doesn't want to actually use the knife. If someone means to cut/stab you the first thing you have to deal with is that knife. Just trying to get inside their guard and take them down is indeed a good way to get stabbed and that's even facing a complete amature. Think of the times you have clinched or taken someone down as they ineffectively punch you due to your superior position. Now picture that I effective punch having 3-5 inches of sharp, pointy, steel at the end of it.

 

[drop bear]

Great way to get stabbed.

But i didn't get stabbed. So it is a proven method.

Whole self defense systems are built on this idea.

 

[drop bear]

That only works if the guy is more sound and and fury and doesn't want to actually use the knife. If someone means to cut/stab you the first thing you have to deal with is that knife. Just trying to get inside their guard and take them down is indeed a good way to get stabbed.

I find this hilarious. Fighting a knife guy unarmed is a good way to get stabbed.

Which every one has of course forgotten at this point.

I know you have relied on "I did it on the street" numerous times. Mabye it is not as trustworthy a test as people make out then.

 

[Juany118]

But i didn't get stabbed. So it is a proven method.

Whole self defense systems are built on this idea.

Yes, they often call that getting lucky or as I said a "bad guy" who was posing with the knife and not serious about using it. But if you are facing a sober person who has no qualms about stabbing/cutting you trying to get inside their guard is at a minimum going to result in a hospital trip for stitches far more often than not.

Also one incident doesn't prove something works on its own. To actually prove something takes multiple experiments/incidents.

 

[Juany118]

I find this hilarious. Fighting a knife guy unarmed is a good way to get stabbed.

Which every one has of course forgotten at this point.

I know you have relied on "I did it on the street" numerous times. Mabye it is not as trustworthy a test as people make out then.

There is a difference. If something is already proven using it yourself is simply a confirmation/proof of concept.

It is already proven that trying to get inside someone's guard to take them down, to when armed with a knife, is a bad idea. If it wasn't grappling arts like Jujutsu wouldn't have specific techniques to address the knife because there would be no point. So in short you are trying to say in one incident you have disproved a few centuries of martial arts and battlefield experience.