So what's a better "test" for martial arts other than MMA?

[Paul_D]

I train a fighting system.

Have you listen to the podcast?

You are still talking about getting into brawls with people rather than dealing with Self Defence against Non consensual Criminal Violence, which is what I am talking about.

I have no doubt about your systems ability in a fight, but muggers and rapists don't square off with their victims in a fight them to determine who is the most skilled. They use distraction and deception to take you out of the game before you even realise you were in it, hence the skills needed to be successfully dealing with NCCV are not the same as the skills needed to be successful and fighting/brawling.

 

[Steve]

The point is still relevant, people at the race track and the roads are not actively attempting to cause any damage to you.

That is not always true. Is it? In fact, I think that statistically speaking, you are MUCH more likely to be a victim of road rage and aggressive driving than of being mugged or assaulted outside of a car.

I don't have the time to dig into the NHTSA site, but it looks like from a quick google search that well over half of all traffic fatalities are a result of road rage, and many involve firearms.

Regarding the track, by its very nature, the activity is very dangerous. But, if I can recommend that MMA is more like being a stunt driver than a race car driver. The guys and gals who drive for a living are highly skilled individuals. While the cars and motorcycles they drive are modified and there are many safety features involved, if I ever needed to go fast in a car, I'd want one of those guys driving. They can drift to within inches of where they want to go, and they maneuver vehicles in ways we can only dream of.

 

[drop bear]

So you think someone training for self defense does not show as much care and conscientiousness in their training as someone training for competition?

Yes.

That was the point of the example i posted.

 

[Ironbear24]

That is not always true. Is it?

There are never absolutes, generally speaking people rarely get aggressive with another driver the same way people attack each other outside of a vehicle.

Usually it's a honk and maybe some middle fingers and that's it. You and dropbear once again seem to argue just for the sake of arguing.

 

[drop bear]

Have you listen to the podcast?

You are still talking about getting into brawls with people rather than dealing with Self Defence against Non consensual Criminal Violence, which is what I am talking about.

I have no doubt about your systems ability in a fight, but muggers and rapists don't square off with their victims in a fight them to determine who is the most skilled. They use distraction and deception to take you out of the game before you even realise you were in it, hence the skills needed to be successfully dealing with NCCV are not the same as the skills needed to be successful and fighting/brawling.

Yes. The roadblocks to violence i was discussing with greysemor.

Or even that crocwise video i posted.

Or that triangle defence meme I have used.

Basically they need to have me set up before they even can initiate a violent attack.

And i use sensible saftey mesures to counter crocodiles, triangles and violent attacks. In addition to martial arts training.

 

[drop bear]

There are never absolutes, generally speaking people rarely get aggressive with another driver the same way people attack each other outside of a vehicle.

Usually it's a honk and maybe some middle fingers and that's it. You and dropbear once again seem to argue just for the sake of arguing.

I am not taking up a semantic stace over this example.

Hey its different because in a car you are sitting down.

 

[Steve]

There are never absolutes, generally speaking people rarely get aggressive with another driver the same way people attack each other outside of a vehicle.

Usually it's a honk and maybe some middle fingers and that's it. You and dropbear once again seem to argue just for the sake of arguing.

Generally speaking? Huh. And according to the stats I saw, it looks like over 2/3rds of traffic fatalities involve road rage. So, isn't it more correct to say that, generally speaking, road rage is a serious issue?

And don't you think it's interesting that you're downplaying the seriousness of what people will encounter in a car, while simultaneously playing up the risks of not being in a car? Statistics be damned, right? It's how we feel, and clearly you feel safer in your car.

 

[Ironbear24]

Generally speaking? Huh. And according to the stats I saw, it looks like over 2/3rds of traffic fatalities involve road rage. So, isn't it more correct to say that, generally speaking, road rage is a serious issue?

And don't you think it's interesting that you're downplaying the seriousness of what people will encounter in a car, while simultaneously playing up the risks of not being in a car? Statistics be damned, right? It's how we feel, and clearly you feel safer in your car.

I never said I feel safer in my car, the whole thing is called a strawman argument. I said which is factual, people do not get into their car and think, "hey I'm going to kill someone today" or even "hey my goal is to get out there and harm someone".

Martial arts competitions do have people that will want to harm someone to an extent, no martial arts tournaments have people who will try to kill you.

However a killer or a mugger on the streets or at home ect will have the intention to kill you or harm you. The point here is intention, and in the road rage incidents for a fight to happen they would both need to exit the vehicle, at that point it becomes a self defense situation that is outside of a car.

It isn't something that is complicated, it is a case of intentions vs no intention. Car accidents that lead to anger are exactly that, they are accidents. No one is going to accidentally stab you or accidentally pull a gun on you, or accidentally strike you in a competition, all those example have intent.

 

[drop bear]

I never said I feel safer in my car, the whole thing is called a strawman argument. I said which is factual, people do not get into their car and think, "hey I'm going to kill someone today" or even "hey my goal is to get out there and harm someone".

Martial arts competitions do have people that will want to harm someone to an extent, no martial arts tournaments have people who will try to kill you.

However a killer or a mugger on the streets or at home ect will have the intention to kill you or harm you. The point here is intention, and in the road rage incidents for a fight to happen they would both need to exit the vehicle, at that point it becomes a self defense situation that is outside of a car.

It isn't something that is complicated, it is a case of intentions vs no intention. Car accidents that lead to anger are exactly that, they are accidents. No one is going to accidentally stab you or accidentally pull a gun on you, or accidentally strike you in a competition, all those example have intent.

Why is intention inherently riskier?

 

[Ironbear24]

Why is intention inherently riskier?

If I have no intention to do physical harm to you, what is the likelihood hood of me doing any physical harm to you?

 

[Juany118]

Generally speaking? Huh. And according to the stats I saw, it looks like over 2/3rds of traffic fatalities involve road rage. So, isn't it more correct to say that, generally speaking, road rage is a serious issue?

And don't you think it's interesting that you're downplaying the seriousness of what people will encounter in a car, while simultaneously playing up the risks of not being in a car? Statistics be damned, right? It's how we feel, and clearly you feel safer in your car.

The thing is though, intent (regarding road rage related accident fatalities.) First many of those fatalities are that if the "rager." Last and perhaps most importantly, if the "weapon" was the car, most of the time the rager doesn't have an intent to do harm. They are driving like a complete asshat, trying to get you out of their way, make you slam on your brakes, to intimidate etc, but that's different than the guy walking down a street looking for a straight up victim to attack with intent.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

 

[drop bear]

If I have no intention to do physical harm to you, what is the likelihood hood of me doing any physical harm to you?

It is the football vs fight sports argument.

Just because playing football leaves you with a greater chance of injury or death. They are not intentionally trying to hurt you so it is safer.

 

[Steve]

The thing is though, intent (regarding road rage related accident fatalities.) First many of those fatalities are that if the "rager." Last and perhaps most importantly, if the "weapon" was the car, most of the time the rager doesn't have an intent to do harm. They are driving like a complete asshat, trying to get you out of their way, make you slam on your brakes, to intimidate etc, but that's different than the guy walking down a street looking for a straight up victim to attack with intent.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

is it all that different? The typical guy walking down the street looking for a victim is rarely looking to kill someone, and usually would prefer any physical contact at all. But, as with road rage, things can escalate pretty quickly.

The difference is that almost everyone will encounter aggressive driving as a weekly, if not daily occurrence. Conversely, most people are never physically assaulted.

Drop bears football comment is apropos. But it's also like the difference between being afraid of sharks vs being afraid of drowning. One of those might actually happen, but psychologically, we push that down and focus on what is unlikely instead.

 

[Juany118]

is it all that different? The typical guy walking down the street looking for a victim is rarely looking to kill someone, and usually would prefer any physical contact at all. But, as with road rage, things can escalate pretty quickly.

The difference is that almost everyone will encounter aggressive driving as a weekly, if not daily occurrence. Conversely, most people are never physically assaulted.

Drop bears football comment is apropos. But it's also like the difference between being afraid of sharks vs being afraid of drowning. One of those might actually happen, but psychologically, we push that down and focus on what is unlikely instead.

My only point is that they have in their mind "if it doesn't go my way someone is getting hurt" they aren't going to just walk away. The road rage guy (in the car) first, doesn't have that in mind...they are aggressively driving and while the accident (and potential death) is their fault, the fault is one based on recklessness vs actual intent to do harm. There IS a not insignificant percentage of "road rage incidents that fit your idea though, however they have resulted from the use of a firearm after the driver(s) are off the road and out of vehicles.

I was just trying to draw a line behind an "intentional" attack (which may well result in death) and a reckless action (which can also result in death), which while criminal lacks the intent of say a robbery or assault.

 

[Ironbear24]

It is the football vs fight sports argument.

Just because playing football leaves you with a greater chance of injury or death. They are not intentionally trying to hurt you so it is safer.

They are trying to tackle you, everyone understands that there are risks that come with that.

 

[drop bear]

They are trying to tackle you, everyone understands that there are risks that come with that.

They are tackling the ball. You are just the person carrying it.

 

[JowGaWolf]

better test = when you do your technique and it works.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Yes.

Then you obviously don't know much about how others train for self defense.

 

[Buka]

That is not always true. Is it? In fact, I think that statistically speaking, you are MUCH more likely to be a victim of road rage and aggressive driving than of being mugged or assaulted outside of a car.

I don't have the time to dig into the NHTSA site, but it looks like from a quick google search that well over half of all traffic fatalities are a result of road rage, and many involve firearms.

Regarding the track, by its very nature, the activity is very dangerous. But, if I can recommend that MMA is more like being a stunt driver than a race car driver. The guys and gals who drive for a living are highly skilled individuals. While the cars and motorcycles they drive are modified and there are many safety features involved, if I ever needed to go fast in a car, I'd want one of those guys driving. They can drift to within inches of where they want to go, and they maneuver vehicles in ways we can only dream of.

I did a study (as part of a Law Enforcement group) a little over ten years ago on the leading cause of traffic fatalities. What I found was - it depends on how you do the study and how you use the information available. For instance - improper lane changes, or drifting out of your lane, can be reported differently, depending on how the reports are written, categorized and/or read and evaluated. Some of them might be from "distracted driving" which can be anything, from talking on the phone or to the person riding shotgun, or fiddling with the radio, texting etc. Or they might be from impaired driving. Or from excessive speed. Or from drifting on curves. Or from weather conditions. (many different ones, rain, snow, ice, fog) Or from equipment failure (such as blowouts) Or due to road rage. Or from animals on the road. Or poorly designed curves. While all of those thing are different - they might have been reported as a lane change/drift incident.

But I'm pretty sure we all know what causes a whole lot of accidents and fatalities.

Excessive speed. (definitely number one, in my opinion)
Impaired driving.
Distracted driving.
Nit wit A-holes.
Bad conditions.

I don't think road rage has cracked the top ten yet. But I believe it's going to. What is it that makes people so enraged while driving and another driver does something stupid? Regular people who would never get so upset and prone to violence in any other aspect of their lives, just flip out. It's just seems like it's so out of character for most people. I can't figure this out, and I've been pondering it for a long while - and truth be told, have felt it myself. I try to avoid it like the plague, especially since I frequently carry. And do we as trained Martial Artists need to avoid it even more than others? I kinda' think we do.

Another interesting thing I found was it was drastically different when done in a state to state breakdown. (rural and city being so unalike)

Sorry for the derail.

 

[Paul_D]

i use sensible saftey mesures to counter triangles

Muggers don't go around putting people in triangle chokes. You are talking about young males getting into street/bar figths which is not the samething as people defending themselves from criminals. Either you haven't listened to the podcast, or have and didn't undertand it. Either makes attempts at continued discussion futile, so I won't waste my time or yours trying.