So what exactly IS a Taeguek anyway?

[Gnarlie]

"Do you understand the meaning behind Koryo?"

Yes.

Please enlighten us. Beyond the word 'Seonbae', what to you understand the meaning of Koryo to be?

Gnarlie

 

[Napitenkah]

1) The 'history' of TKD is based on supposition. The actual history is out there to find if you are willing to do the work. It has not much to do with Taekkyon or Hwa Rang Do.

2) And why are the Kwaes involved? What's the point?

I'm sorry, but your reply seems to be based on thinking I stated the opposite of what I did.

 

[Napitenkah]

Just to be correct, it's "gwae" in Korean. The Koreans don't have a natural "aye/ai/eye" sound. People often mispronounce Taekwondo as if it was spelt "Thai-kwondo" and it's my number 1 pet peeve! Then again Hyundae hasn't helped the cause (they pronounce it as Hyun-dai in England, but in Korea it's always Hyun-deh).

When they need an "ai" sound they have to write it as two separate characters "ah" and "ee", so when they write Aikido, they have to write "ah-ee-gi-do" - 아이기도.

It is Kwae, Kwai or gwae, because all those are phonetic, not how a Korean would actually write it.
The Kwae has the same meaning as the chinese trigram, just as Taequek at its core has the same meaning as Taiji in chinese.

I had a south Korean Qwangjangnim, so whatever way he said to pronounce something Korean, I didn't quibble.

There was even a few times I looked words up later to check, and they seemed off from him, like he would say to say Momtung for both a middle punch and a middle block. So I was just saying middle, both times.

But he is South Korean, so I will take his word for it over anyone else.

 

[Napitenkah]

Please enlighten us. Beyond the word 'Seonbae', what to you understand the meaning of Koryo to be?

Gnarlie

Well, if we were in a dojang, you probably wouldn't ask like that.

And I don't get it, because we don't know each other, and I am not here to be an authority on TKD, I know what I know, and we can share that, or we can keep getting upset about details and hot shotting each other.

I don't really like talking about a martial art we are mutually involved in, as a debate or source of contention.

What do you want to do.

 

[Napitenkah]

Thank you.



I'm not sure what you mean by this.



Well, no, it has nothing to do with that, since when the ITF was formed, neither the Kukkiwon nor the WTF existed.



I'm not sure what you mean by this.



Actually, they're called gwae in Korean. As in poomsae palgwae - the patterns of the eight tragrams.

When I do any of the poomsae, I am doing more than just "the shape of the [gwae]".
[/COLOR]


I didn't ask that, but it's a valid question.

What is your understanding of the meaning of the taeguk (or palgwae) il jang?
[/COLOR]

Yes you did, look at your posts.

And look at my previous closer, if you want answers, and try to interpret them correctly..

Courtesy Integrity Perseverance Self-Control Indomitable Spirit.

Let's try those here, and not just at the local YMCA dojang.

 

[Napitenkah]

Please enlighten us. Beyond the word 'Seonbae', what to you understand the meaning of Koryo to be?

Gnarlie

But anyway, the Seonbae addition is typical of Kukkiwon.

What I knew was that Korea came from the Koryo dynasty, 918-1392 in which the Korean people fought back the mongols, and the form itself should be done in a conviction of indomitable spirit.
That is what Koryo initially meant, but I guess they are padding it with more meanings as they go along.

 

[Gnarlie]

Well, if we were in a dojang, you probably wouldn't ask like that.

And I don't get it, because we don't know each other, and I am not here to be an authority on TKD, I know what I know, and we can share that, or we can keep getting upset about details and hot shotting each other.

I don't really like talking about a martial art we are mutually involved in, as a debate or source of contention.

What do you want to do.

I'm not upset, and I absolutely would ask you these questions in a Dojang. Nobody is 'hot shotting' you.

You revived an old thread here, stating information about the Taegeuk forms that can be found pretty easily using Google. (In fact all of it had already be covered in the thread, so I'm not sure why you revived it, but hey)

You stated much of what you wrote as fact; I found this intriguing, as it led me to believe that you must be some kind of authority on the topic.

I wanted to see what else you understand about the reasons for those patterns representing the Kwae, as talking over the reasons WHY brings more to the discussion than just stating the same old information that most TKD students already know.

I always try to look beyond the surface, especially in terms of TKD history and philosophy. That's why I am asking questions of you.

The reason people are picky about details here is that there is so much misinformation already on the internet and in books that it's good to keep the house in order here - if someone says something that is factually incorrect, they will be corrected.

This especially applies when we discuss the difference between WTF (a sports governing body that regulates a rule set), ITF (a governing body for a martial art) and Kukkiwon (a governing body for a martial art).

Everyone here is free to state their understanding of an issue. It's when someone's incorrect understanding is stated as fact that they can expect to be corrected.

Gnarlie

 

[Dirty Dog]

Yes you did, look at your posts.

Good idea. I'd encourage you to try it. When you do, perhaps you will recognise that you're confusing me with someone else. The question was asked, but not by me. You made a mistake. Deal with it and move on. Perhaps by answering the questions that have been put to you?

Remainder of your post deleted. It's nothing but insults, and I don't generally reply to those.

 

[Gnarlie]

Yes, it was me who asked the question, which you still have not answered.

Gnarlie

 

[Dirty Dog]

Yes, it was me who asked the question, which you still have not answered.

Gnarlie

Awwww.... you went and saved him from actually looking at the posts. :rofl:

 

[jks9199]

Folks, friendly goes both ways. Let's rein in the heat a little; it seems as rather as if there might be some clashing communication styles here... Remember that a "printed" word can come across differently than that same word spoken face to face because we lose so much of the emphasis and emotional tone.

 

[miguksaram]

You are right there.

It is a sort of common altering of the meanings that people in Taekwondo do.

It was born of separating the International Taekwondo federation with the world Taekwondo federation, which is not the same as the world taekwondo headquarters in kukkiwon.

Are you saying that the WTF was developed so that they could separate ITF from KKW TKD? If so, then you have been misinformed.

I am not focused on those political, social distinctions, because what matters more is Taekwondo itself, without all the outside historical corruption.

Then perhaps you can explain actual TKD history without the corruption.

I write; "Their representations are the same as trigrams, but they are called Kwai, in Korean.
When you do the form, you are doing the shape of a kwai."

Then you ask; "Do you understand why each form represents something?"

It is just what people are focused on.

So are you saying you are not really concerned with the representation of the forms and that it plays no significance in your TKD training?

 

[miguksaram]

It is Kwae, Kwai or gwae, because all those are phonetic, not how a Korean would actually write it.

Actually no. When writing Korean words in English there is a distinct set of rules in translating. Kwae and Gwae are not the same thing.

I had a south Korean Qwangjangnim, so whatever way he said to pronounce something Korean, I didn't quibble.

Not to be the Korean/English spelling nazi here...well yeah...I guess I am....it is kwanjangnim (there is no 'g' in 'kwan').

 

[miguksaram]

Well, if we were in a dojang, you probably wouldn't ask like that.

Actually I am sure Gnarlie would ask it that way.

And I don't get it, because we don't know each other, and I am not here to be an authority on TKD, I know what I know, and we can share that, or we can keep getting upset about details and hot shotting each other. I don't really like talking about a martial art we are mutually involved in, as a debate or source of contention.

What do you want to do.

What if all you knew was incorrect? For a long time many people were brought up to believe that TKD was 2000 years old and was adamant in holding on to that history, however through discussion and proof they found they were wrong. You know what you know, and I believe that, but what you know may not be correct. Would you rather live the illusion of being correct when you are not or know the truth. Boards like this one helps in sharing knowledge and though it may get heated from time to time, it helps expand what we know by either confirming or challenging us to dig deeper into what we were taught.

 

[Gnarlie]

Fair comment. Let me rephrase: I would encourage anyone to contribute with their understanding of what the symbolism present in the Taegeuk and Yudanja forms means, and the reasons why it is present. Also why the patterns are the way they are - why those movements, in that particular order?

Napitenkah: I am not being mean or disrespectful to you, I am merely asking questions to encourage you to express your own opinion and understanding of this beyond what you may have read or heard from your instructor(s). I do think it's important to keep a clear line drawn between opinion and evidence-based conclusions.

So, in the name of progress, here's my understanding of the line of Koryo:

The Hangul for Seonbae is [h=1]선배[/h]
The Sino-Korean Hanja for Seonbae is

[h=1]先輩
Which literally means 'Prior group'but carries the metaphorical meaning of 'senior'[/h]
The line of the poomsae is the sino-Korean Hanja character 'Sa', which looks like this:

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/士#Hanja

This character implies the meaning of learned man / scholar (Seonbae), because it is formed from the radicals '+', meaning 10 and '-' meaning one, implying that this person knows and understands one to ten.


http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/十

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/一

The Seonbae explanation was added in later editions of the KKW TKD Textbook, but the implication was always there as this character is quite common.

What you wrote about indomitable spirit and the Mongols also features in the explanation, but to say that the addition of the Seonbae explanation is 'typical of Kukkiwon' seems a bit harsh, when the meaning of the poomsae line was always there.

Anyone anything to add on Koryo meaning / philosophy?

 

[Napitenkah]

Yep, Gnarlie asked it.
My bad.
I am not afraid to say, when a discussion gets to a certain level, it bothers me, and I don't look at a thread for several days.
How I feel, is; it is not a problem that people are trying to correct misconceptions and to get a broader view of TKD then what can be commonly found. I prefer to get a more in depth view of a form or any aspect of a martial art, but just be sure what I come up with is actually part of it, or just my own take on it.
What if all I knew was incorrect?
As the Admin said, things go both ways.
If people are misinterpreting atleast half of what I say, so I have to go back and say, no I didn't mean it that way, or this is what my South Korean instructor taught me, and they are implying it is wrong, then it is not worth it to continue.
I misinterpret what other people say, obviously.
I cannot know what will actually insult other people, and they cannot tell me what is insulting to me or not. If I feel like people are hotshotting me when I am getting "Please enlighten us"
Or, "you still haven't answered the question" then that is what is happening to me. I got quizzed when I took the black belt test, I don't need it from strangers.
Taekwondo is Korean in origin. In that it was created by Koreans, even if it was in the last century, they conceived it.
Koreans, as I have witnessed, are always polite and friendly. Even if they are about to kick your butt, they are friendly.
Of course this does not actually mean that all Koreans are friendly and polite, it is just what I have observed so far.
So if I am going to be in TKD, then I am going to be like that. I am not always, but it is an objective.
I had discussion, debates with him, especially when he said I should be a christian, but how we debated, is different then how americans, and some others debate.
The christian one ended with him saying. "Whatever you believe, I'm going to respect it anyway."
We can get more information from each other if we be as a Korean is when they talk.
I won't answer pointed questions, I have some knowledge of TKD as others here do.
I don't feel any of us is an authority.
On another note, I think it is cool I have a forum stalker, going around watching my posts. LOL.
Not anyone that has posted on this thread.

 

[Gnarlie]

I am not afraid to say, when a discussion gets to a certain level, it bothers me, and I don't look at a thread for several days.

This is a discussion forum. It might help us to understand each other better if we are willing to discuss points rather than just making statements. In order for this to happen, we need to be prepared to have our ideas about the truth challenged.

How I feel, is; it is not a problem that people are trying to correct misconceptions and to get a broader view of TKD then what can be commonly found. I prefer to get a more in depth view of a form or any aspect of a martial art, but just be sure what I come up with is actually part of it, or just my own take on it.

I am not sure what you mean with this. We are all looking for depth and breadth, based on fact. Determining what is and is not fact takes discussion to establish the source and corroborating evidence. Where no evidence exists, discussion in this group can at least act as a kind of informal peer review process. This allows us to determine what is likely to be true.

What if all I knew was incorrect?
As the Admin said, things go both ways.
If people are misinterpreting atleast half of what I say, so I have to go back and say, no I didn't mean it that way, or this is what my South Korean instructor taught me, and they are implying it is wrong, then it is not worth it to continue.

Of course it's worth continuing. By the way, being South Korean doesn't mean one can fly in the face of the accepted current Romanisation rules for your own language. Those rules are the reason why your speling of Kwae / Gwae /Kwai was challenged. Being South Korean also doesn't give one an automatic free pass to correct and up to date information concerning Taekwondo or anything else. Hey, the Koreans argue amongst themselves all the time over what's right.

If people misinterpret what you say then please clarify. The nature of text is that it can be misinterpreted. I would encourage you to look further that what you may have been told by your instructor, South Korean or otherwise. It's the nature of people that they are not always right.

I misinterpret what other people say, obviously.
I cannot know what will actually insult other people, and they cannot tell me what is insulting to me or not. If I feel like people are hotshotting me when I am getting "Please enlighten us"
Or, "you still haven't answered the question" then that is what is happening to me. I got quizzed when I took the black belt test, I don't need it from strangers.

Nobody is quizzing you, questions and challenges are the nature of discussion. You can't really expect to make a statement on any online forum and not have people ask questions about it.

I am sorry if you were offended by my wording. My questions were worded in this way because you seemed to be presenting yourself as someone who knew more than the rest of us. As this appears not to be the case, I take that wording back. My questions are valid though, and necessary in order to further discussion. I gave my understanding on the Koryo question, but the 'why the Kwae?' question remains open.

Taekwondo is Korean in origin. In that it was created by Koreans, even if it was in the last century, they conceived it.
Koreans, as I have witnessed, are always polite and friendly. Even if they are about to kick your butt, they are friendly.
Of course this does not actually mean that all Koreans are friendly and polite, it is just what I have observed so far.

I think that's a rather romanticised view of Koreans. Koreans are just as human as the rest of us, and just as subject to emotion, frustration, anger, greed etc.

So if I am going to be in TKD, then I am going to be like that. I am not always, but it is an objective.
I had discussion, debates with him, especially when he said I should be a christian, but how we debated, is different then how americans, and some others debate.
The christian one ended with him saying. "Whatever you believe, I'm going to respect it anyway."
We can get more information from each other if we be as a Korean is when they talk.

I don't agree with your Korean analogy but your point about respect is good. So here's an olive branch: I'll word my questions in a more respectful but no less challenging way, if you will be prepared to discuss points you make in more depth and clarify where you are misinterpreted.

For example in this thread:

-You revived an old thread with no new information. I challenged you with a question to try to bring some out. My question was intended to bring out: Why the Kwae? Why do the Taegeuk forms have those shapes and those meanings? Why does each form have a philosophy? Is there an overall aim that these meanings are meant to teach?

-You stated as fact that Choi was the founder of TKD. I challenged this, and yet you did not clarify why you believe it to be true, so the discussion remains unresolved. You only stated you have no loyalty to ITF or Kukkiwon...if that's the case, why make the statement about Choi in the first place if you are not prepared to clarify why you believe it's true?

-You stated that Taekwondo history is largely based on supposition. I interpreted this to mean that you think there isn't any documented evidence for the actual true history of Taekwondo. There certainly is, and I challenged you on it. You stated that I had misintepreted your point, but without clarification, so the discussion is unresolved. I'd still like to understand what you actually believe.

I won't answer pointed questions, I have some knowledge of TKD as others here do.
I don't feel any of us is an authority.

You will notice that my questions only became 'pointed' when you made statements that were debatable, you were politely challenged, and then you did not clarify your position.

Some people here (I do not include myself in this) are certainly authorities on Taekwondo. There are people on this forum who have spent their whole lives dedicated to this art.





Gnarlie

 

[Napitenkah]

"Why the Kwae? Why do the Taegeuk forms have those shapes and those meanings? Why does each form have a philosophy? Is there an overall aim that these meanings are meant to teach? "
I don't think I can say anything here, in a place where people study TKD, atleast about the established information, that hasn't already been heard.
Maybe with my own feelings about the forms and what they mean.
Before the Kwae is Taegeuk, the complete universe with its duality. The Kwae come in as the movement of Taeqeuk, or in Taeqeuk. The elements of life. There is a korean version of the I-ching, which this information lead to the creation of the Taeqeuk forms, by the Korean Taekwondo association. KTA doesn't recongnize Palgwe forms, or ITF forms. KTA is linked with WTF and Kukkiwon, which is why it is not really wrong to say WTF style Taekwondo or WTF kukkiwon style. People involved will usually understand what you are getting at.
If you look at the Bagua, the eight Kwae around the Taeqeuk have the symbols and same meaning as the 8 Taeqeuk forms, in the same order.
They are aspects of life in form.
All in all, the aim is a Taoist perspective, which I am in alignment with.
As for my own feelings on them, first I am learning the forms.
I know the movements, but I feel I haven't really gotten them to where it is like breathing them, and actualizing the power of them.
This takes continual practice.
I did see someone wrote about Koryo in the other thread, how once people have gotten to that first dan black belt, they lose focus.
This I did experience. I worked so hard to get all those forms down, once I got it, it was like a dump. I started learning Koryo, but I still don't have all the form down, even just the movement of it. Partly too, because I started learning Kung Fu, which is what I feel more aligned to energetically.
But I still practice and am learning Koryo.

 

[Napitenkah]

I think that's a rather romanticised view of Koreans. Koreans are just as human as the rest of us, and just as subject to emotion, frustration, anger, greed etc.

See, this is what I mean, and I have done this to, as you have pointed out.
If I write that from what I witnessed Koreans are always friendly and polite, but, Of course this does not actually mean that all Koreans are friendly and polite, it is just what I have observed so far.
This is not romanticized. If I wrote all Koreans are friendly and polite, period. That is.
This just slows down where we can get to know what we know, if we keep having to say, no, I didn't mean that.
So far, Koreans I have met are friendly, polite, and though I didn't say it, I am aware they have emotions, anger, greed and can be dishonest. I know beating their kids in South Korea, is generally accepted, as well as in the schools.
The ones I met feel American Kids are generally disrespectful.

And do me a favor, on whatever whole post I do, I don't really like when someone breaks it down into sections and critiques the individual sections as if they are statements in themselves.

You prefer to write and respond that way, but I don't, I feel it can more easily be taken out of context, which is what has been done.

Like the one I just wrote before this, I probably won't reply if it gets crumbled into little sections, taken apart, reformed to mean something else.

 

[Gnarlie]

"Why the Kwae? Why do the Taegeuk forms have those shapes and those meanings? Why does each form have a philosophy? Is there an overall aim that these meanings are meant to teach? "
I don't think I can say anything here, in a place where people study TKD, atleast about the established information, that hasn't already been heard.
Maybe with my own feelings about the forms and what they mean.
Before the Kwae is Taegeuk, the complete universe with its duality. The Kwae come in as the movement of Taeqeuk, or in Taeqeuk. The elements of life. There is a korean version of the I-ching, which this information lead to the creation of the Taeqeuk forms, by the Korean Taekwondo association. KTA doesn't recongnize Palgwe forms, or ITF forms. KTA is linked with WTF and Kukkiwon, which is why it is not really wrong to say WTF style Taekwondo or WTF kukkiwon style. People involved will usually understand what you are getting at.
If you look at the Bagua, the eight Kwae around the Taeqeuk have the symbols and same meaning as the 8 Taeqeuk forms, in the same order.
They are aspects of life in form.
All in all, the aim is a Taoist perspective, which I am in alignment with.
As for my own feelings on them, first I am learning the forms.
I know the movements, but I feel I haven't really gotten them to where it is like breathing them, and actualizing the power of them.
This takes continual practice.
I did see someone wrote about Koryo in the other thread, how once people have gotten to that first dan black belt, they lose focus.
This I did experience. I worked so hard to get all those forms down, once I got it, it was like a dump. I started learning Koryo, but I still don't have all the form down, even just the movement of it. Partly too, because I started learning Kung Fu, which is what I feel more aligned to energetically.
But I still practice and am learning Koryo.

Thanks for your answer.

I see what you are saying about KTA / Kukkiwon / WTF and their formation, but it is important to make a distinction here on this forum because when people say WTF they mean sport / Olympic style shihap Kyorugi and competition standards for Poomsae, or the organisation that regulates competition.

When they say Kukkiwon Taekwondo, they mean the full Kukkiwon Taekwondo martial art syllabus including the testing standards for Poomsae, or the organisation that regulates Taekwondo as a martial art.

If you are not careful using the terms, people here often will not understand what you are getting at, and are wont to criticise aspects of Taekwondo or your argument because they don't understand the context.

On the subject of the Taoist perspective, does that affect how you perform the forms? Does it affect how you live your life, how you behave?

On the point about 'breathing' the patterns, what is your view of your ultimate goal in practising forms? I ask this because at the moment I am working less on perfection of the movements 'in form', and more on breathing through the forms as a form of moving meditation. I work on perfection of the motions and their applications 'out of form', so performing poomsae has become more about the enjoyment of the movement and the focus required.

On your last point about Koryo, that loss of focus is common and something that one must work to get over. In many ways, second dan acts as a watershed to establish who's in it for the longer journey. Koryo is a form that requires the student to demonstrate focus. It is a very intense blast of combinations of techniques, most of which do not feature in the Taegeuk series and so are unfamiliar. With each new Taegeuk form, we get maybe 3 or 4 new techniques. With Koryo, most of the techniques are new. It's like a message saying, 'OK, now you know your basics, you have not finished, get your head down and concentrate on what's to come.'

There's nothing wrong with cross training in my opinion, enjoy the change. But bear in mind there's just as much freshness after 1st dan in TKD, if you know where to look.

On the subject of splitting posts, if you make more than one point in a paragraph, I'll split it, otherwise it's too confusing both for me and for other people reading the thread to follow what's being said on each point.