SKK Half Moon.......why?

[MJS]

When I started in SKK, I too was taught the c-step when punching. Pretty much every technique was stressed with this method, and I never saw anything done with the punch being thrown as a cross.

When changing to the Parker system, the techs. were described as step thru punches, not c-steps. When I'm throwing a punch for a tech. I don't c step, I step.

Interestingly enough, take a look at these 2 clips of Short Form 1 from the Parker system. In the first clip, we see steps, when transitioning from move to move, while in the second clip, we see the c-step.

 

[kidswarrior]

Proprioceptive Sensors are a bit sensitive to how we move our feet relative to the direction of travel (among other things), to create structure to support the action. This "C-Step" does not support the structure or proper anatomical alignment of any stance.

The body is designed to locomote directly forward in a series of controlled falls, based on the physics of an inverted pendulum. The pelvic girdle supports these controlled falls and maintains the femur knee relationship for that purpose, as structure is needed to support the human body as it completes one "fall cycle" after another moving forward.

When the feet move laterally to the direction of travel and the pelvic girdle even slightly, from a proprioceptive perspective, the sensors are being told you are "side stepping," and structure is immediately shifted to that lateral perspective which is counter to the direction of travel and the focused intent of the activity, and therefore structure is lost and is only recoverable through a series of correcting mechanisms.

It is important to understand that the Chinese taught many different things for many reasons. It was the Okinawan's and Japanese that decided that every move had a physical application, and corrupted the process and misread "indexes of information" and transformed it into what they called Bunkai. Historical anecdotes suggest that the movements are derived from the clearing of the long Samurai Robes, and later "hakama of the Japanese, and is not seen or utilized in that manner in the Chinese Combat Sciences.

Well, this would explain why I took all of them out of my forms! Thanks for the science behind my poor but strongly held intuitive sense. :asian:

When I'm throwing a punch for a tech. I don't c step, I step.

Me too, Mike. My inspiration also came from another art (not EPAK, but CMA), but same result.

 

[Hand Sword]

Me Too! And I kept on doing it inspite of constant reprimands through the years to "keep my 1/2 mooning tight!!!!"

 

[DavidCC]

None of us would use a horsestance is pratcial SD would we? But it has a place in training.

I guess it depends on if you call the position where my feet are pointed to 1030, parallel to each other and about shoulder-width relative to each other, even though I am facing 12 - a horse stance, or not. If you do, then I would.

 

[DavidCC]

I could buy it as a training tool for doing basics, but, to base combinations off of it? Not very realistic. As comprised the combos/dm's would have to be re-arranged if the 1/2 mooning was eliminated, and replaced with more realsitic attack sequences. Most of the follow ups and takedowns aren't there w/o the 1/2 mooning punch ins. The stance, can be practical (and is).

we don't have any problems doing techniques off of punches that are not c-stepped...

a realistic 'overhand right' drags the right foot behind it ending right foot forward. other attacks have other shapes... adapt and overcome.

 

[MJS]

As the old saying goes....environment and target availability dictate what we do. So, if we go on that, then yes, the 'ideal phase' technique is going to have the person step just right, etc., but when the 'what if' phase comes into play, we have to adapt what we're doing. Whats more important, not getting hit or worrying about whether or not we do the tech. textbook? If the person does not step and I can't do the takedown or sweep, I omit it all together and move onto something else.

 

[JTKenpo]

we don't have any problems doing techniques off of punches that are not c-stepped...

a realistic 'overhand right' drags the right foot behind it ending right foot forward. other attacks have other shapes... adapt and overcome.

I'm with David here. I don't have to rearange the movements in 90% of the combos to work well off of a cross. In fact very little has to be rearanged to use them off of other attacks. A wise man once told me if a technique works off the inside of a right it should work off the outside of a left, a little theory on opposites and reverses.

Then again let me stop and say I have no idea how your combos work they may be different then mine. Again as we all get further from the source things change get altered and modified hopefully for the better but not always. I know personally I have seen techniques done differently and found out that it was my instructor that changed it and I went back to the way it was done before the change and vice versa.

Anyway, the combos as I was taught (for the most part) do not need to be reworked if you take out the half moon step. Maybe you just need to look at the range of the attack. As for the effectiveness of the half moon?? I see it more as a training tool then a realistic foot maneuver and yes I believe you need both.

 

[Hand Sword]

we don't have any problems doing techniques off of punches that are not c-stepped...

a realistic 'overhand right' drags the right foot behind it ending right foot forward. other attacks have other shapes... adapt and overcome.

That's my whole point! Real punches are not c-stepped in, so basing all defenses and combos off of that is not helpful.

To the other point, usually realistic overhand rights keep the dragging foot back. They'll usually attempt to grab with their left and pummel with the right. If right handed, the power comes from the right leg back. Occasionally though, they will come forward. However, that's a drunk's wild swing, as opposed to a 20 something club warrior.

(everyone's a UFC star there! They watched the Spike tv marathon-lol

)

 

[JTKenpo]

That's my whole point! Real punches are not c-stepped in, so basing all defenses and combos off of that is not helpful.
quote]

Again, I believe you have to start somewhere and this is the ideal phase as MJS put it. You have to learn the technique against something before you can play with it in different attacks.

 

[DavidCC]

That's my whole point! Real punches are not c-stepped in, so basing all defenses and combos off of that is not helpful.

Although many of the combos do look for that punching-side foot forward, I don't think it matters if the attacker did a c-step or not. Watching videos of real haymakers leads me to believe that the right foot usually follows the hand, ending up catching the balance of the puncher who typically over-extends.

 

[DavidCC]

This "C-Step" does not support the structure or proper anatomical alignment of any stance.

The body is designed to locomote directly forward in a series of controlled falls, based on the physics of an inverted pendulum.

It is important to understand that the Chinese taught many different things for many reasons. It was the Okinawan's and Japanese that decided that every move had a physical application

wikipedia has an interesting article on the inverted pendulum, I would have thought that it would act like a regualr pendulum but upon reading the article now I see why it is so.

Doc, is the C-step taught in CMA tradition? if so, can you elaborate on some of the reasons it is taught, please?

 

[Doc]

Although many of the combos do look for that punching-side foot forward, I don't think it matters if the attacker did a c-step or not. Watching videos of real haymakers leads me to believe that the right foot usually follows the hand, ending up catching the balance of the puncher who typically over-extends.

Exactly correct. The "step-through" punch is about definitions. The traditional "karate" step-through is not a realistic punch, but a stylistic "do" conceptual punch utilized in traditional karate-do training and usually includes the "C-Step" action, and bares no relationship to the reality of punching.

As you stated Dave, most "punches from the rear" are thrown surreptitiously hard and fast with the intent of quick hard contact, and the body weight of the attacker follows through with the foot coming forward to catch one's balance. The operative word here is quick. If the punching hand has to "wait" for the rear leg to plant before the punch is thrown, relative speed of the punch is negated.

The coordinated hand/foot step through punch is a "karate fantasy" and has no place in non-traditional training of the arts, and most certainly not in a self-defense reality based system.

Mr. Parker often railed and cautioned about utilizing moves or technique that are "traditional," without a true understanding of their meaning and historical purpose, yet many insisted on bringing their traditional training and background and infusing it into their self-defense training.

This dichotomy of purpose has long plagued the Kenpo Lineage's. When Mr. Parker changed directions, he dropped all of the traditional training methods of the Japanese, however many still cling to traditional rituals, methods, and even language that Parker never used, or completely dismissed in the late sixties.

This is why you will find people in the Parker Lineage who still call themselves "sensei," or award "dan" ranks of Japanese tradition when Parker said not to.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Exactly correct. The "step-through" punch is about definitions. The traditional "karate" step-through is not a realistic punch, but a stylistic "do" conceptual punch utilized in traditional karate-do training and usually includes the "C-Step" action, and bares no relationship to the reality of punching.

As you stated Dave, most "punches from the rear" are thrown surreptitiously hard and fast with the intent of quick hard contact, and the body weight of the attacker follows through with the foot coming forward to catch one's balance. The operative word here is quick. If the punching hand has to "wait" for the rear leg to plant before the punch is thrown, relative speed of the punch is negated.

The coordinated hand/foot step through punch is a "karate fantasy" and has no place in non-traditional training of the arts, and most certainly not in a self-defense reality based system.

Mr. Parker often railed and cautioned about utilizing moves or technique that are "traditional," without a true understanding of their meaning and historical purpose, yet many insisted on bringing their traditional training and background and infusing it into their self-defense training.

This dichotomy of purpose has long plagued the Kenpo Lineage's. When Mr. Parker changed directions, he dropped all of the traditional training methods of the Japanese, however many still cling to traditional rituals, methods, and even language that Parker never used, or completely dismissed in the late sixties.

This is why you will find people in the Parker Lineage who still call themselves "sensei," or award "dan" ranks of Japanese tradition when Parker said not to.

If you are basing off your opponent with your hands via a grab for a take down and c-stepping through his leg or legs, wouldn't the structure of your stance be of less importance?
Sean

 

[Doc]

wikipedia has an interesting article on the inverted pendulum, I would have thought that it would act like a regualr pendulum but upon reading the article now I see why it is so.

Doc, is the C-step taught in CMA tradition? if so, can you elaborate on some of the reasons it is taught, please?

I have never seen it used in the Chinese Combat Sciences. Who knows with "Wushu," the Chinese version of an "artistic discipline" over "functional application training."

 

[Hand Sword]

That's my whole point! Real punches are not c-stepped in, so basing all defenses and combos off of that is not helpful.
quote]

Again, I believe you have to start somewhere and this is the ideal phase as MJS put it. You have to learn the technique against something before you can play with it in different attacks.

True. If it's for self defense, then why not start with slow, real punches? That can be and was done before the introduction of 1/2 mooning to us. Ideal is fine, but, it doesn't have to be phony. Again, if building responses into muscle memory, that type of stepping leads to bad movements. For instance take a combo and have it be a cross punch, then go from there. Different? Yep! Alterations needed? Yep! How about the opponent's physical set up? A strike done realistically changes that too by moving them a certain way. Their weight may be set different, not allowing a certain follow up or takedown that you get used to doing, without thinking about it. Besides, Boxing was the influence, and practiced in those enviroments that these arts stemmed from, and was the Ideal models used for punches originally. It's best to get it right the first time and build from there- right?

 

[DavidCC]

As you stated Dave, most "punches from the rear" are thrown surreptitiously hard and fast with the intent of quick hard contact, and the body weight of the attacker follows through with the foot coming forward to catch one's balance.

I have to admit, you pointed this out to me origianlly, but it didn't take too much YouTube to verify it. Watching real fights is not nearly as fun as watching movie fights. It's often nauseating, honestly.

 

[JTKenpo]

It's best to get it right the first time and build from there- right?

Absolutely, but.....if that is the case then we need to go back and identify what the attack is in all of our combos, which we should anyway. This has been touched upon in other threads. Originally all the attacks were different, as they are in American Kenpo. I believe the thought process should bring us here and just as we look deeper into forms we do that with combos as well. To speculate why the half moon step was introduced to combos as attack I would have to say to simplify things. Bring it to the lowest common denominator so that people didn't have to learn 100 different attacks for 100 different defences. Again speculation, I wasn't there. So if you have been in the game awhile and have done these techniques a thousand or more times you should be comfortable enough with them to branch out for the attack. For better or worse there were changes made in the system to make it more "user friendly". The nice thing is that we all have free thought, so if you don't like the half moon there is no one going to show up and force you to train with it or teach it or like it.

 

[DavidCC]

If you are basing off your opponent with your hands via a grab for a take down and c-stepping through his leg or legs, wouldn't the structure of your stance be of less importance?
Sean

IMHO if you are in a grappling situation your structure is even MORE important


around? or through? are you referring to "osoto gari"?

Given the info here, I have to wonder if a c-step is in fact the correct mechanism. Would lifitng the foot on a circular path that went vertical and ended up in the same spot as the more horizontal c-step
a) work at all
and
b) be better?

 

[Doc]

Absolutely, but.....if that is the case then we need to go back and identify what the attack is in all of our combos, which we should anyway. This has been touched upon in other threads. Originally all the attacks were different, as they are in American Kenpo. I believe the thought process should bring us here and just as we look deeper into forms we do that with combos as well.

You are right sir, and that is something I did back in the seventies with Mr. Parker, and before "Big red" became some peoples 'bible." Lowest common denominator = commercially easy to teach.

 

[DavidCC]

Absolutely, but.....if that is the case then we need to go back and identify what the attack is in all of our combos, which we should anyway.

If I had to point to 2 things that radically changed the way we approach training at our shcool, "training attackers to use real attacks in practice" would be on that short list.

This has been touched upon in other threads. Originally all the attacks were different, as they are in American Kenpo. I believe the thought process should bring us here and just as we look deeper into forms we do that with combos as well. To speculate why the half moon step was introduced to combos as attack I would have to say to simplify things. Bring it to the lowest common denominator so that people didn't have to learn 100 different attacks for 100 different defences. Again speculation, I wasn't there. So if you have been in the game awhile and have done these techniques a thousand or more times you should be comfortable enough with them to branch out for the attack. For better or worse there were changes made in the system to make it more "user friendly". The nice thing is that we all have free thought, so if you don't like the half moon there is no one going to show up and force you to train with it or teach it or like it.

I categorize the combo's attacks as straight punches vs roundhouse punches, I could probably get more detailed on that but haven't taken the time to do so.

I think you have put your finger on exactly how and why systems that had some redeeming value become "watered down".