SKK Combos and Various Attacks

[RevIV]

I assume when we talk "core" Skk we can only be talking about Fred Villari's core. As I respect you Marlon (and yes we have to figure out the private lesson) and 14 Kempo, within the same breath of you saying I do not want to drop something because I may not understand it yet, I must think of what was added just because? Our choices that we make are ours for good or bad - what can be done can be undone - and i feel his conversation is going to lead back to a lengthy discussion on Combo # 6... haha.. kickum accurate, kickum hard.!

 

[marlon]

I assume when we talk "core" Skk we can only be talking about Fred Villari's core. As I respect you Marlon (and yes we have to figure out the private lesson) and 14 Kempo, within the same breath of you saying I do not want to drop something because I may not understand it yet, I must think of what was added just because? Our choices that we make are ours for good or bad - what can be done can be undone - and i feel his conversation is going to lead back to a lengthy discussion on Combo # 6... haha.. kickum accurate, kickum hard.!

well combo 6 is one of the core techniques of skk. Perhaps a discussion of what we can learn from it is indeed warranted?!!!! jj

Respectfully,
marlon

 

[JTKenpo]

Going back to combo #14, I do not teach the scissor kick I teach a hopping front kick, and that is what I teach in 3 kata as well. I do however say that originally it was a scissor kick, show the scissor kick and let the student know that it is a great tool to practice but have yet had someone apply a scissor kick to me or anyone else that I have seen.

 

[DavidCC]

punching in
We do not have the attacker half-moon. When attacking we will either throw a looping haymaker type punch (comes from outside and drags the fight foot behind it), or a step-forward right cross (punch and step are together, punch straight at the face). Because these are closer to how you will really be punched. For beginners we just punch slower. We do a drill where one person is moving forward and punching and the other is moving backwards and blocking, both are half-mooning, but I think tha is the only time an "attacker" is to use that footwork.

changing techniques
my school started under a guy who never was trained into the upper levels, so we started with havin to make some stuff up. Also he probably never got to the point where some stuff that seemed unworkable later made sense; so that stuff was dropped or changed. Now that we are independant, that process actually continues. My teacher has been working with a number of senior instructors, some of whom have extensive experience in SKK or NCK or similar (Pantazzi, Seeley, Robyn to name a few) and in other styles; our goal is to teach techniques that "make sense" right away. If a student needs 2-3 years experience before a particular movement "works" for them, perhaps that movement is not the best choice... We are trying to do more with less as it were.

For example, we have gun #3, gun #5, gun #10, and it slips my mind but there is also a punch combo - all 4 get to a similar position - you are cup&saucer on your right with attackers arm pulled and twisted, he is bent over facing 430. Previosuly all 3 ended differently from this same position, but we have modifed them to now all include the same finishing kick.

We give ourselves license to do this because we believe that the system is more than just the techniques, and that the techs can be different and it still be the same style. Also, we know many layers of changes have been made on top of the CORE, who is to say that they are all good? And what is the CORE anyway? Villari? Cerio? how about Pesare, or Chow, or Chun or Gascon? Or was it Godin, or Emperado or even Mitose?

Technique #14 and Kata 3
We have a COMPLETELY differnt technique that we call 14; and in kata 3 at that point where 14 is included, we do OUR 14

our 14 - defense vs body punch or straight kick. step fwd with left foot, downward x-block. Raise x'd hands to face height, uncross them with tiger rakes to attakers face, flowing thru to elbow position, then poison thumb strkes to eyes, followed by right front ball kick to SP.

OK, I think I am all caugth up on the thread now

 

[marlon]

my opinion about core techniques is only my own. It is how i approach things yet i do not impose this on anyone else. SKK core material is the Fred. Villari stuff. although it did not grow from inside his mind and experience alone it is distinctly different from other styles and still recognizeable as a Chow lineage system. There is a great deal of wonderful kempo out there and if i say it is not SKK, it is only my opinion and i only mean that it is not Fred Villari kempo. I teach fred Villari kempo which means i teach the combos as i have learned them and the forms of Villari's kempo. SKK is Fred Villari kempo and not all kempo is SKK (thank goodness)

 

[Jdokan]

i teach it the standard way first but do it myself a little differently: eliminate the block offset the jump to move out the way and it is an ok technique. good for checking to see if your in shape. Personally i am not qualified to eliminate any of the core skk curricullum. Plus it is in 3 kata

Respectfully,
marlon

Obviously you have younger knees......even my 3 kata has adapted....the low sweep has morphed (as well) into a more upright attack....ahhh the joys of having to acknowledge the body changing faster than the mind...

 

[JTKenpo]

For example, we have gun #3, gun #5, gun #10, and it slips my mind but there is also a punch combo - all 4 get to a similar position - you are cup&saucer on your right with attackers arm pulled and twisted, he is bent over facing 430. Previosuly all 3 ended differently from this same position, but we have modifed them to now all include the same finishing kick.

question off thread (this seems to happen alot ), when you change these techniques or more to the point drop #'d techs how do you address the break in sequence? i.e dropping tech #3 so then teaching 1,2,4.... I ask becuase I know what you guys are doing and the background from which you are coming from and this must have been addressed by now.

our 14 - defense vs body punch or straight kick. step fwd with left foot, downward x-block. Raise x'd hands to face height, uncross them with tiger rakes to attakers face, flowing thru to elbow position, then poison thumb strkes to eyes, followed by right front ball kick to SP.

sounds like 5 pinan.

 

[DavidCC]

For example, we have gun #3, gun #5, gun #10, and it slips my mind but there is also a punch combo - all 4 get to a similar position - you are cup&saucer on your right with attackers arm pulled and twisted, he is bent over facing 430. Previosuly all 3 ended differently from this same position, but we have modifed them to now all include the same finishing kick.

question off thread (this seems to happen alot ), when you change these techniques or more to the point drop #'d techs how do you address the break in sequence? i.e dropping tech #3 so then teaching 1,2,4.... I ask becuase I know what you guys are doing and the background from which you are coming from and this must have been addressed by now.




sounds like 5 pinan.

we replace them with other techs. We have a 14, it's just not the same 14 you have.

6, 7, 3, 2, 5, 18, 4, 8, 12, 9... does that sound familiar?
we only have 26 "Shaolin defense maneuvers" but we have 10 Gun Defense, 10 Knife Defnese, 15 grab defense, 10 Club defense manuevers too... requirements incldue techs from all 5 groups. I bet some of the combos we are "missing" show up in our weapon defenses... if I ever get on the mats with some of you guys I'd like to try to figure that out




I never drew a parallel to pinan5, I'll have to think about that. Our pinans are heavily influecned by Goju, so a buit different than the SKK standard. In fact they most resemble what I see in Tang Soo Do videos...

 

[LawDog]

I, like JTKenpo removed the scissors kick a long time ago. The primary reason that I removed it was,
1) torque kicking when air bound damages ones knees,
2) most who try the kick do not land properly, they tend to land so that the front knee goes back into joint lock, again damaging ones knees.
3) if you do the technique against an extended strike you will be in the proper range for the kick. If the strike is done so that it with it's proper power curve you will be to close for the kick.

 

[LawDog]

JTKenpo,
who was your instructor out there in Seekonk land?

 

[JTKenpo]

JTKenpo,
who was your instructor out there in Seekonk land?

Thomas Sullivan from Masters brought me through 2nd Black then when he retired and sold the school to his student Dan DaRocha I stayed on through 3rd Black and am now with Joe Rebelo, who promoted me to 4th, but have been focusing more on the American Kenpo curriculum for the past few years.

 

[Hand Sword]

Don't know where we're at but does anyone see the similiarity of combination #5 and "Intellectual Departure?"

 

[SK101]

just want to point out that while the techn (#2) is fast and effective as a one handed technique there is no reason to assume that the other hand is doing nothing.
i am enjoying the discussion btw

respectfully,
Marlon

I really like the point marlon is making on this. DM#2 teaches 1 arm defense, but if your not injured that left hand will be checking or even aiding in the technique. I think we are pressed to use only 1 arm to make sure that principle doesn't get lost.

 

[Hand Sword]

Try it when the lapel is grabbed and you pin the arm with your left hand.

 

[SK101]

Lets take a look at #3. Seems like it would work well against the right punch, a rt. jab, a rt. push or 2 hand push and a lapel grab with the rt. hand. Unless I'm missing it, I'm not seeing much off of a left side attack.

just taking the first initial step and punch makes a nice angulation sparring drill off a left front punch. Just step and hit.

People often have a hard time with angle on the front punch to groin on DM #3. If you change the attack to hook punch and use a bob and weave the groin strike hits easily.

Movement wise I like DM 3 off a cross hand wrist grab. you do loose the concept of hitting while the attacker is still coming forward, but the movements are almost identicle.

 

[SK101]

Lets take a look at #3. Seems like it would work well against the right punch, a rt. jab, a rt. push or 2 hand push and a lapel grab with the rt. hand. Unless I'm missing it, I'm not seeing much off of a left side attack.

On the right push are you saying right hand pushing opponents right shoulder? That could be really effiecient if you moved back before they actually landed the push then hit them with their energy still coming forward. Are you just shifting from horse facing 12 to horse facing 3 as they attack or another type of footwork?

 

[SK101]

Alright, sticking with the ot, how about making #5 combo a defense against a round house kick, as you move up the circle?

Can the initial block be used to insure they land right leg forward?

I would feel more comfortable being able to the rake and back punch if the attacker is going to land forward rather then pulling his kick back.

If someone is using a box step or even stepping forward into a half moon facing 9, would they be better off stepping left foot back into horse facing 9 to deal with a roundhouse kick?

 

[SK101]

or against a spinning back fist...what do you mean "as you move up the circle"?

respectfully,

Marlon

I am thinking I would want to be able to absorb the back fist if I have to so I would step back with left foot into rt half moon facing 9. If they can't over power me then it is a simple break. If they can then my left foot being farther back will allow me to continue their circular motion without getting knocked over or just hit.

Do you use the draping block on 5(left knife/right upside down #3 block)? I think I have heard you say that before. I especially like that version of block with the spinning back fist attack.

 

[SK101]

Is it #6, well yes becuase you are slipping the attack and striking the groin with a front kick.

We may need to clarify versions of 6 here. Some people have as step off line w/blocks then kick to groin. Others may have front kick to solar plexus than cross out. I like the 2nd version for an attempted forward bear hug.

Someone commented early that bearhugs from any direction are 6 just using different kicks. I like their thought on that.

I know many people already know this, but i'll throw it incase somewhen has not heard it. The crossover on the front kick to solar plexus version is done in case your attacker was too big. you are bouncing off and being thrown into the cross out.

If you injured your opponent you generally should continue forward.

 

[Hand Sword]

Can the initial block be used to insure they land right leg forward?

I would feel more comfortable being able to the rake and back punch if the attacker is going to land forward rather then pulling his kick back.

If someone is using a box step or even stepping forward into a half moon facing 9, would they be better off stepping left foot back into horse facing 9 to deal with a roundhouse kick?

Yes. Think of my last post about Intellectual Departure to get an idea of how it works for a round or front kick. Moving up the circle is usually the fastest and most safe way to step. It takes the steam off as past the point where the leg is straight, all of the power almost evaporates.