SKK Combinations: Concepts

[RevIV]

We were just talking about this exact idea at my seminar. I know a few people who would offer up there school for a monthly workout-rotating to particitpating instructors. Myself, Jeff(jdokan) Chris Hatch -in cape cod so lets do that one in the summer and have a good time after the workout in the cape. The only thing we talked about was we would only go to peoples schools who showed up at other schools for the workout.
Jesse

 

[marlon]

We were just talking about this exact idea at my seminar. I know a few people who would offer up there school for a monthly workout-rotating to particitpating instructors. Myself, Jeff(jdokan) Chris Hatch -in cape cod so lets do that one in the summer and have a good time after the workout in the cape. The only thing we talked about was we would only go to peoples schools who showed up at other schools for the workout.
Jesse

When Jesse? i would love to make it. July 23rd and Aug.6 th are the birthdays of my children so those week ends are out, but otherwise i will do everything to make it...if i am invited...technically i am sort of an east coast school .....

marlon

 

[RevIV]

I don't know about your #6, but mine doesn't include any blocking.

And nobody needs to be talking about their "hidden limbs", this is a clean forum.:btg: ROFL

I mean, I know you can insert anything you want into any technique, but does that mean that the specific technique teaches that particular concept? I could prefix #6 with a 50-yard dash to 6 oclock, does #6 teach sprinting LOL???`



What I don't understand is why some of you New England guys don't know some of this stuff!! Take no offense please - let me explain - I am not cirticizong your efforts or training!. See, I'm stuck out here in Nebraska under a guy who most of you would consider a pariah or worse, who has no up-line in SKK. So it is reasonable that WE might have to be discovering some of these things on our own. But you guys have solid lineages to Villari, Cerio, Pesare (Nohelty, Bryant, Ingargiola, Cunningham, Corrigan, etc) So why aren't you asking them?? Assuming that the depth of knoweldge we are trying to bring to light in a thread like this EVEN EXISTS wouldn't these guys have that information? And if they have it, why isn't it getting passed down to you?

I'm starting to wonder if we aren't grasping at shadows here.

yeah we can look at the techniques and say "I learned this from it" but that in no way implies that Sonny Gas or Fred Villari or anyone in between or since STARTED WITH that idea and created the technique to showcase it - which is, I think, an underlying assumption in this topic. This might be why there are less than 10 posts here and we basically have 2-3 concepts listed so far after 2 days of thinking about it, maybe?

I like what you wrote here and i have trained with a lot of the masters you have stated here. They are all very knowledgable in SKK and other arts - but i think you hit the nail on the head with the grasping at shadows statement in the SKK. To me there has always been a lot of branches in the kempo world. The educated one putting words and principles to their movements in training and then the other one who were more street mentality and they would train to hit hard, fast and first/ dont think just react. we would train our body 1000's of times to move on instinct in a real situation and would train hard take take the hits back in a fight. In the end our original goal was to survive the fight not wonder why his body did not move the way it was supposed. I now have more resources and friends who can help me answer these questions you asked but this sort of dialouge put with our techniques will lead to many interesting conversations. I was told there are princible based kempo and tech. based. but they both meet up eventually in the end no matter the system. For the past few years i have ventured to educate myself in the terms and thoughts of other systems like Parker, Kosho, Kyusho and i start to like the things i am learning up until my emotional/animal side rears its head due to past experiences or emotions of the situation. When that happens it all goes out the window and I go back to my roots which is not on the educated teminology base but the hurt the person real bad before they hurt you.
Sorry for the rant - I think it is up to our generation to make SKK the way we want it. Bringing in the educated concepts and ideas are great but so are some of the techniques we teach. Hit them low they bend/ hit them high they fall back/ take out there base they fall down -- follow up each with brutality.

 

[RevIV]

When Jesse? i would love to make it. July 23rd and Aug.6 th are the birthdays of my children so those week ends are out, but otherwise i will do everything to make it...if i am invited...technically i am sort of an east coast school .....

marlon

technically you are my friend and always welcome in any of my crazy ventures.

 

[JTKenpo]

We were just talking about this exact idea at my seminar. I know a few people who would offer up there school for a monthly workout-rotating to particitpating instructors. Myself, Jeff(jdokan) Chris Hatch -in cape cod so lets do that one in the summer and have a good time after the workout in the cape. The only thing we talked about was we would only go to peoples schools who showed up at other schools for the workout.
Jesse

Sounds great and I absolutely understand about only attending schools that participate at other schools. I'll PM you.

 

[DavidCC]

I like what you wrote here and i have trained with a lot of the masters you have stated here. They are all very knowledgable in SKK and other arts - but i think you hit the nail on the head with the grasping at shadows statement in the SKK. To me there has always been a lot of branches in the kempo world. The educated one putting words and principles to their movements in training and then the other one who were more street mentality and they would train to hit hard, fast and first/ dont think just react. we would train our body 1000's of times to move on instinct in a real situation and would train hard take take the hits back in a fight. In the end our original goal was to survive the fight not wonder why his body did not move the way it was supposed. I now have more resources and friends who can help me answer these questions you asked but this sort of dialouge put with our techniques will lead to many interesting conversations. I was told there are princible based kempo and tech. based. but they both meet up eventually in the end no matter the system. For the past few years i have ventured to educate myself in the terms and thoughts of other systems like Parker, Kosho, Kyusho and i start to like the things i am learning up until my emotional/animal side rears its head due to past experiences or emotions of the situation. When that happens it all goes out the window and I go back to my roots which is not on the educated teminology base but the hurt the person real bad before they hurt you.
Sorry for the rant - I think it is up to our generation to make SKK the way we want it. Bringing in the educated concepts and ideas are great but so are some of the techniques we teach. Hit them low they bend/ hit them high they fall back/ take out there base they fall down -- follow up each with brutality.

Thanks for reassuring me that I am not crazy LOL. I think I hear a "mission statement" in that second paragraph

Speaking of Kyusho, my teacher, Shawn Steiner, is certified instructor with Kyusho International (http://www.kyusho.com/instructors.htm). He is wrapping up production of a "Kyusho and Kempo" DVD (hopefully he has a better title than that haha) which teaches the application of Kyusho using Shaolin Kempo techniques. Video editing will be finished this week.

 

[Hand Sword]

Well, coming in late, I would agree with David CC. I brought up this same point many times in the past with many people. I find it fascinating (truly) what people find or come up with when disecting the material of SKK. The problem is that since everything translates and could be found, a mistake of assuming "this was meant to be" could be made. I mean, if many were describing this and that is in this technique and a founder was then asked about it, would he simply say "I was just avoiding a punch and hitting back, but, it's great to hear what you found-keep studying!"

Another problem could be that when these systems were "made" there was only so much available to be learned by the "founders." The focus was "they throw a punch--you do this!" "They throw a kick--you do that!" Some ran with that simplicity and made the money via an uneducated public just wanting to learn defense. Few went off and really studied. I think more are really studying now more than then. The "founders" themselves kept growing, evolving, and learning through the years and might have a good answer to the questions now.

As for my input, I once heard Mr. Villari and others of his first BB's simply explain #6 as a kick beats a punch due to length. #7 was avoid and counter attack with your longest weapon to maintain distance.

Simple as that.

You would also hear "just throw up a block and hit back" and "just keep moving forward" quoted a bit. All of the "scientific stuff" was preached by EPAKers back then. The SKK was just simple.

 

[KenG]

im sure alot of epak principles could be found in the skk techniques... but as far as pincipals in skk maybe they just never were... but that dosent mean you cant lern them from other styles and apply them where they work... epak is very principal based and the system is taught in such a way to teach different things in different tech's/forms/sets.. but when/if i hear something that applies and it is eaiser to remember or i just like it better or whatever i just take a note and use it.. i love to borrow from other systems..

 

[Hand Sword]

I agree! The science applies to all of the systems as we all do the same stuff basically. I also agree about the principles "not being there" as was taught. It was always said just do this and that for this and that. It was simple brutality. Pontificating, thinking, describing how and why never came up (until recent years) except for the obvious as "to get distance for a good kick to the gut." Fighting was always said to just happen too fast and was too chaotic. You just had to do it. Block/evade, hit back, take down and finish.

 

[marlon]

I like what you wrote here and i have trained with a lot of the masters you have stated here. They are all very knowledgable in SKK and other arts - but i think you hit the nail on the head with the grasping at shadows statement in the SKK. To me there has always been a lot of branches in the kempo world. The educated one putting words and principles to their movements in training and then the other one who were more street mentality and they would train to hit hard, fast and first/ dont think just react. we would train our body 1000's of times to move on instinct in a real situation and would train hard take take the hits back in a fight. In the end our original goal was to survive the fight not wonder why his body did not move the way it was supposed. I now have more resources and friends who can help me answer these questions you asked but this sort of dialouge put with our techniques will lead to many interesting conversations. I was told there are princible based kempo and tech. based. but they both meet up eventually in the end no matter the system. For the past few years i have ventured to educate myself in the terms and thoughts of other systems like Parker, Kosho, Kyusho and i start to like the things i am learning up until my emotional/animal side rears its head due to past experiences or emotions of the situation. When that happens it all goes out the window and I go back to my roots which is not on the educated teminology base but the hurt the person real bad before they hurt you.
Sorry for the rant - I think it is up to our generation to make SKK the way we want it. Bringing in the educated concepts and ideas are great but so are some of the techniques we teach. Hit them low they bend/ hit them high they fall back/ take out there base they fall down -- follow up each with brutality.

you made some excellent distinctions and points here Jesse. thanks

 

[marlon]

im sure alot of epak principles could be found in the skk techniques... but as far as pincipals in skk maybe they just never were... but that dosent mean you cant lern them from other styles and apply them where they work... epak is very principal based and the system is taught in such a way to teach different things in different tech's/forms/sets.. but when/if i hear something that applies and it is eaiser to remember or i just like it better or whatever i just take a note and use it.. i love to borrow from other systems..

i love to borrow frfom other systems as well. But there is a flavour and "prinicples" or ap[proacjh that skk takes that has disctinctiveness that merits elucidation. I think these types of discussions and the work outs can help us build our own fuctional principles. It may be difficult ,b/c as you say most likely GM Villari had few concepts that work out into the techniques but certainly not an exhaustive set and perhaps due to the diversity of teaching and borrowing and marketing and competition...there may be conflicting concepts insinuated into our system. Not to mention that there are so many masters in the lineage of the Chow based systems each having a distinctive style and here we are learning from all of them and then attempting to remodel them into our skk. this is a great opportunity and challenge to this group to truly establish our skk in a manner that could only benefit us and everyone...of course the biggest challenge may be forgeting egos and focusing on the kempo. I wish us the best. and thanks SK101 and Kempo 14 for bringing this thread and Jesse for leading it in this direction

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[marlon]

Well, coming in late, I would agree with David CC. I brought up this same point many times in the past with many people. I find it fascinating (truly) what people find or come up with when disecting the material of SKK. The problem is that since everything translates and could be found, a mistake of assuming "this was meant to be" could be made. I mean, if many were describing this and that is in this technique and a founder was then asked about it, would he simply say "I was just avoiding a punch and hitting back, but, it's great to hear what you found-keep studying!"

Another problem could be that when these systems were "made" there was only so much available to be learned by the "founders." The focus was "they throw a punch--you do this!" "They throw a kick--you do that!" Some ran with that simplicity and made the money via an uneducated public just wanting to learn defense. Few went off and really studied. I think more are really studying now more than then. The "founders" themselves kept growing, evolving, and learning through the years and might have a good answer to the questions now.

As for my input, I once heard Mr. Villari and others of his first BB's simply explain #6 as a kick beats a punch due to length. #7 was avoid and counter attack with your longest weapon to maintain distance.

Simple as that.

You would also hear "just throw up a block and hit back" and "just keep moving forward" quoted a bit. All of the "scientific stuff" was preached by EPAKers back then. The SKK was just simple.

somewhere btwn the brutality and "scientific " stuff is training. not trainign to be the strongest and the fastest b/c that will not endure. What we are seeking is training for excellence based on being in an inferior situation, be that out numbered, injured, older, slower, weaker, is it not? Yet in all that to allow our kempo to trump all those disadvantages.

respectfully,
Marlon

 

[DavidCC]

I think it is possible to document the most important things to be learned from any technique, and once we have a string list of those things to abstract that into a set of principles that might encompass the "flavor" of SKK.

The problem will be that these principles might conflict with the facts of anatomy physiology and kinesthesiology. What then? For example, Doc Chapel has proven beyond a shodow of doubt (in my mind) that the C-Step and the half-moon stance are fundamentally flawed and are in fact making us weaker. So do we just ignore that and continue to teach these things out of tradition? The deepe we go down this hole, the more of these pitfalls we will find.

 

[Jdokan]

So wherre are all our NE guys today? hopefully they are out tracking down FV and GP to get the answers we need !!! :lfao:


But anyway, enough of my distracitng topic, let's get back to the OP topic.

After we teach #6 and #7, we teach something we call "Grab #6" - attack is a 2 hand shoulder grab from behind. Step back, wrap over the arms with right - locking out attacker's arms, punch to floating ribs. Does anyone else do a tech like this? fi not then what is the 3rd tech taught in your systems? and what concepts do you want it to convey?

I have that as a rear choke/shoulder grab....I have additional strikes then a take down and pound him into dust...but itherwise the same technique....

 

[DavidCC]

I have that as a rear choke/shoulder grab....I have additional strikes then a take down and pound him into dust...but itherwise the same technique....

Interesting side-bar...

I was once told it is impossible to choke from behind like this with the hands. I was skeptical but IT'S TRUE. Can you make someone very uncomfortable? yes. Can you actually choke them? No. Try it!

 

[marlon]

I think it is possible to document the most important things to be learned from any technique, and once we have a string list of those things to abstract that into a set of principles that might encompass the "flavor" of SKK.

The problem will be that these principles might conflict with the facts of anatomy physiology and kinesthesiology. What then? For example, Doc Chapel has proven beyond a shodow of doubt (in my mind) that the C-Step and the half-moon stance are fundamentally flawed and are in fact making us weaker. So do we just ignore that and continue to teach these things out of tradition? The deepe we go down this hole, the more of these pitfalls we will find.

to ignore facts in favour of tradition would not be logical nor practical.

marlon

 

[Hand Sword]

somewhere btwn the brutality and "scientific " stuff is training. not trainign to be the strongest and the fastest b/c that will not endure. What we are seeking is training for excellence based on being in an inferior situation, be that out numbered, injured, older, slower, weaker, is it not? Yet in all that to allow our kempo to trump all those disadvantages.

respectfully,
Marlon

I agree with your post and thinking. I merely stated how it was back then when I trained and was around some 1st BB's of Mr. Villari, and heard him on occassion. I don't see where I stated anything about training purposes that you are arguing against. The "scientific stuff" is meant to describe how EPAKers go about decribing their movements and material. (god bless them!) From my experiences with the above people in SKK, that way was never present. It was simply block/evade and hit back. Any principles, were much simpler. That was why I was agreeing with those that said the concepts "weren't present" in SKK as taught in my experiences. The concepts are present, however, in the idea that the same science applies to all arts and movements, as it does.

 

[Jdokan]

Interesting side-bar...

I was once told it is impossible to choke from behind like this with the hands. I was skeptical but IT'S TRUE. Can you make someone very uncomfortable? yes. Can you actually choke them? No. Try it!

The fingertips CAN apply carotid (sp?) artery pressure that will have you go to sleep...Additionally, you can do severe damage to the throat/larinyx...Try it!

 

[marlon]

I agree with your post and thinking. I merely stated how it was back then when I trained and was around some 1st BB's of Mr. Villari, and heard him on occassion. I don't see where I stated anything about training purposes that you are arguing against. The "scientific stuff" is meant to describe how EPAKers go about decribing their movements and material. (god bless them!) From my experiences with the above people in SKK, that way was never present. It was simply block/evade and hit back. Any principles, were much simpler. That was why I was agreeing with those that said the concepts "weren't present" in SKK as taught in my experiences. The concepts are present, however, in the idea that the same science applies to all arts and movements, as it does.

Hi David, my comments about the focus of training is just my own thinking and not a rtesponse to anything you said. I apologize that it was not clearer. I also love the way the AK people have thier concepts and style so clearly defined, however, i notice some are more into the vocabulary than the training. By this i mean they overuse the jargon of AK to the point where it can become an impediment to training, unlike someone such as Doc who, when using the language of AK uses it to clarify what is happening from a place of understanding and not a quick "i know this!!" type answer. Of course we know that some skk people have the opposite difficulty. Hopefully we can find a good balance.

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[Hand Sword]

David?????

LOL! Someone had a rough Saturday night and is in desperate need of coffee or more sleep.