skk forms principles

[RevIV]

Jesse when you say 3 guard positions do you mean the 3 positions on the clock or do you mean the low block, tigers claw, and immortal mans?

Im talking about Low block, tigers and immortal mans. What do you mean by the 3 positions on the clock?

 

[RevIV]

ok so why would someone do a guard with the hands in an immortal man posistion?

respectfully,
Marlon

If i had my meridian book out I would give some points that you are touching. I know a Shaolin broad sword form (I think it is the basic one they teach to the little kids in China, took awhile to learn,, hehehe) While i was being taught that form the opposite hand not holding the sword was constantly in the immortal man position. They said it was a Energy flow position. Not sure if thats the same reason but it is something. I do know on SGM Pesare's tape that he sells at the end of the techniques you see him and his original students all do the cross and cover with the immortals.

 

[Matt]

Im talking about Low block, tigers and immortal mans. What do you mean by the 3 positions on the clock?

I think he just means that the 3 guards are oriented toward 3, 12, and 9 o'clock respectively.

 

[Matt]

If i had my meridian book out I would give some points that you are touching. I know a Shaolin broad sword form (I think it is the basic one they teach to the little kids in China, took awhile to learn,, hehehe) While i was being taught that form the opposite hand not holding the sword was constantly in the immortal man position. They said it was a Energy flow position. Not sure if thats the same reason but it is something. I do know on SGM Pesare's tape that he sells at the end of the techniques you see him and his original students all do the cross and cover with the immortals.

I think for the immortal man one, you tend to be touching LU-5 on a trapped arm with your right and TW-17 with the other hand. But hey, it's not my bag so set me straight if I'm off. I just call it 'the noogie of doom.'

Matt

 

[RevIV]

I think for the immortal man one, you tend to be touching LU-5 on a trapped arm with your right and TW-17 with the other hand. But hey, it's not my bag so set me straight if I'm off. I just call it 'the noogie of doom.'

Matt

Actually i was refering to where the thumb and ring finger touch. Hope you had a great weekend Matt, see you on Sunday.

 

[JTKenpo]

I think he just means that the 3 guards are oriented toward 3, 12, and 9 o'clock respectively.

Yup, thats what I meant.

 

[DavidCC]

If i had my meridian book out I would give some points that you are touching. I know a Shaolin broad sword form (I think it is the basic one they teach to the little kids in China, took awhile to learn,, hehehe) While i was being taught that form the opposite hand not holding the sword was constantly in the immortal man position. They said it was a Energy flow position. Not sure if thats the same reason but it is something. I do know on SGM Pesare's tape that he sells at the end of the techniques you see him and his original students all do the cross and cover with the immortals.

Without all of the supporting information, technique and training the "Energy flow position" is nothing more than imitation of the outward hand gesture at best. And without knowing why Mr. Pesare and the old guys were doing it in those tapes, I'd have to summarize what you have written here as "we are doing it purely out of tradition". Whihc isn't a negative, as long as we KNOW that's what's up.

I think for the immortal man one, you tend to be touching LU-5 on a trapped arm with your right and TW-17 with the other hand. But hey, it's not my bag so set me straight if I'm off. I just call it 'the noogie of doom.'

Matt

Why touching? My teacher is also an Instructor in Kyusho Jitsu, so we are very familair with use of these points, so I am curious what you guys undersand about how this form supports that kindof interpretation. Poking with immortals? Something more abstract or something altogether different? I look forward to your thoughts. Also I wonder if we are doign the same movements / postures? got pics?

 

[Matt]

Without all of the supporting information, technique and training the "Energy flow position" is nothing more than imitation of the outward hand gesture at best. And without knowing why Mr. Pesare and the old guys were doing it in those tapes, I'd have to summarize what you have written here as "we are doing it purely out of tradition". Whihc isn't a negative, as long as we KNOW that's what's up.

I think you have hit a nail on the head (not the nail, there's still a lot of nails left) with that statement. I think we are doing it all purely out of tradition. There is one little piece left in the chain of 'there to here' in that I think GM Pesare was doing it that particular way because that's what he saw done. I haven't heard a reason why from him at this point. Maybe he just likes it. The applications for those moves that I do are purely reverse engineered out of techniques from Professor Kimo and ones he's shown based on Walter Godin's teachings. I can't claim any real pedigree for the moves. I just found that moves I was learning fit the forms I had really well, and that they came from a source further up the tree (than even GM Pesare).

Why touching? My teacher is also an Instructor in Kyusho Jitsu, so we are very familair with use of these points, so I am curious what you guys undersand about how this form supports that kindof interpretation. Poking with immortals? Something more abstract or something altogether different? I look forward to your thoughts. Also I wonder if we are doign the same movements / postures? got pics?

By touching, I'm only speaking in location terms, not functionality. From a Kyusho stand point, the immortal man ones seem to fall in the 'pressing' category (not rubbing or striking). I tend to use biomechanical explanations, as I don't particularly subscribe to the Dillman / Pantazi type of Kyusho applications.

 

[RevIV]

Without all of the supporting information, technique and training the "Energy flow position" is nothing more than imitation of the outward hand gesture at best. And without knowing why Mr. Pesare and the old guys were doing it in those tapes, I'd have to summarize what you have written here as "we are doing it purely out of tradition". Whihc isn't a negative, as long as we KNOW that's what's up.


Yes,,,No,, Since for sake of arguement (matt can go further here) 3 kata was created by Sijo Gason - so if he created it, thats where the tradition starts.

 

[DavidCC]

I think you have hit a nail on the head (not the nail, there's still a lot of nails left) with that statement. I think we are doing it all purely out of tradition. There is one little piece left in the chain of 'there to here' in that I think GM Pesare was doing it that particular way because that's what he saw done. I haven't heard a reason why from him at this point. Maybe he just likes it. The applications for those moves that I do are purely reverse engineered out of techniques from Professor Kimo and ones he's shown based on Walter Godin's teachings. I can't claim any real pedigree for the moves. I just found that moves I was learning fit the forms I had really well, and that they came from a source further up the tree (than even GM Pesare).

If Kimo is showing you stuff that could be applications of these movements, and they came from Godin, that is very "pedigreed" IMHO. So let's see some videos!!

By touching, I'm only speaking in location terms, not functionality. From a Kyusho stand point, the immortal man ones seem to fall in the 'pressing' category (not rubbing or striking). I tend to use biomechanical explanations, as I don't particularly subscribe to the Dillman / Pantazi type of Kyusho applications.

I'm not sure how long ago you were exposed to what Pantazi and K.I. are doing but in the last 2 years they made some pretty fundamental changes to how they are teaching Kyusho. They removed a lot of theory and "tradidtional theory" if you know what I mean, and are focusing on repeatable, measurable results. No more elements etc. Lots more medical research.

Without all of the supporting information, technique and training the "Energy flow position" is nothing more than imitation of the outward hand gesture at best. And without knowing why Mr. Pesare and the old guys were doing it in those tapes, I'd have to summarize what you have written here as "we are doing it purely out of tradition". Whihc isn't a negative, as long as we KNOW that's what's up.


Yes,,,No,, Since for sake of arguement (matt can go further here) 3 kata was created by Sijo Gason - so if he created it, thats where the tradition starts.

If SG can explain what those movemets mean, as the creator of the form, and we can learn and apply that, and pass it on, then we will not be "doing them out of tradition".

If he put them in there because of something he saw but did not practice or understand, and we are doing them for the same reason... then it is just empty tradition.

If he understood the applicaiton and practice and we don't... then it is just empty tradition and somebody needs to go learn it form him before it is too late.

 

[Matt]

If Kimo is showing you stuff that could be applications of these movements, and they came from Godin, that is very "pedigreed" IMHO. So let's see some videos!!

Eventually? One of these days...

I'm not sure how long ago you were exposed to what Pantazi and K.I. are doing but in the last 2 years they made some pretty fundamental changes to how they are teaching Kyusho. They removed a lot of theory and "tradidtional theory" if you know what I mean, and are focusing on repeatable, measurable results. No more elements etc. Lots more medical research.

That's good to hear, I think. Last time I saw him was probably around the time he made the 'Chinto' tape. I always have a chuckle when I see it,as my friend Chris inadvertently was featured in the cover photo. This was before 2003, based on the patch on Chris's uniform. I enjoyed working with Evan. He was very nice and I thought that he'd taken an interesting approach with his school, but once he started 'demonstrating' the 'no touch knockouts', I lost interest. None of the knockouts (touch, no-touch, whatever) ever worked on me, even when performed by Evan under ideal circumstances, so I didn't place much stock in them. However, his pain compliance and manipulation techniques were very good, and I really liked a lot of his Kata Bunkai.

If SG can explain what those movemets mean, as the creator of the form, and we can learn and apply that, and pass it on, then we will not be "doing them out of tradition".

If he put them in there because of something he saw but did not practice or understand, and we are doing them for the same reason... then it is just empty tradition.

If he understood the applicaiton and practice and we don't... then it is just empty tradition and somebody needs to go learn it form him before it is too late.

Preaching to the choir here. I just seem to live on the wrong coast. So why hasn't he gone over them some time in the last 15 years? I've really been wondering that. Hopefully some of the guys who have actually trained with him on a regular basis can enlighten me.

 

[14 Kempo]

Eventually? One of these days...



That's good to hear, I think. Last time I saw him was probably around the time he made the 'Chinto' tape. I always have a chuckle when I see it,as my friend Chris inadvertently was featured in the cover photo. This was before 2003, based on the patch on Chris's uniform. I enjoyed working with Evan. He was very nice and I thought that he'd taken an interesting approach with his school, but once he started 'demonstrating' the 'no touch knockouts', I lost interest. None of the knockouts (touch, no-touch, whatever) ever worked on me, even when performed by Evan under ideal circumstances, so I didn't place much stock in them. However, his pain compliance and manipulation techniques were very good, and I really liked a lot of his Kata Bunkai.




Preaching to the choir here. I just seem to live on the wrong coast. So why hasn't he gone over them some time in the last 15 years? I've really been wondering that. Hopefully some of the guys who have actually trained with him on a regular basis can enlighten me.

** As a side note of sorts, Victor 'Sonny' Gascon will be at my school in July. Not sure if he'll be in condition to show bunkai, however, if he has Mike Rash or one of his other high ranking persons with him, I may be able to get the bunkai. If not, I will at least ask the question and possibly get the answer verbally.

 

[DavidCC]

If nothing else, ask about the immortal man thing.

 

[14 Kempo]

If nothing else, ask about the immortal man thing.

I'll make sure to do that.

 

[Matt]

** As a side note of sorts, Victor 'Sonny' Gascon will be at my school in July. Not sure if he'll be in condition to show bunkai, however, if he has Mike Rash or one of his other high ranking persons with him, I may be able to get the bunkai. If not, I will at least ask the question and possibly get the answer verbally.

You have no idea how happy that would make me.

Thanks,

Matt

 

[marlon]

Which form is next?

marlon

 

[JTKenpo]

Which form is next?

marlon

Have we touched on the principles of 4 kata? I'm getting principles and application threads mixed up.

To me the predominant feature in four kata is the pivot, in place directional change without giving up position.

 

[14 Kempo]

Have we touched on the principles of 4 kata? I'm getting principles and application threads mixed up.

To me the predominant feature in four kata is the pivot, in place directional change without giving up position.

Darn, glad you mentioned that, cause that's all I can find within kata 4. I'm sure there is more, I'm looking forward to everyone's input on this one. I just don't like this form. Maybe after reading up here, I'll have a different outlook.

 

[SK101]

Darn, glad you mentioned that, cause that's all I can find within kata 4. I'm sure there is more, I'm looking forward to everyone's input on this one. I just don't like this form. Maybe after reading up here, I'll have a different outlook.

I hear that. I didn't skip it on accident, I just don't have much in the way of application on this one. I was noticing everyone else seem to skip it too....hummmmm.......

 

[SK101]

When you hit the thanks button what does that do? Are you thanking the person who wrote that particular reply? Sorry I don't understand how martial talk works yet. I am still just learning the basics.