against what attack

[marlon]

The combinations are all taught against a strandard straight punch. However, the original kajukenbo counters and even AK techniques are against differing attacks. to compensate we learn them the standard way and then begin to apply them against various attacks. Does anyone know the original intent or attack of the combinations? What were they originally intended to counter? Again our kajukenbo brothers could be the biggest help here

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[DavidCC]

I also do Shaolin Kempo so I wil take acrack at an answer.


Not every right punch is a straight punch. Some combinations go outside, some move inside, some move back... and each is appropriate for different attack. I don't like trying to move outside a roundhouse, or inside a right cross.

We work material 2 ranks below from the opposite side. So techniques I learned as a right punch defense at 7th kyu I am now practicing mirror image at 5th kyu.

Some of our combinations address 2 attacks, right left, hi low, etc. also reversed.

We also practice and explore the techniques against attacks coming from directions other than 12 oclock. This is the default for some techniques (in which case 12 is the experiment).

Same for grabs and controls.
I too wonder about the KJKB perspective.

 

[TheBattousai]

Does anyone know the original intent or attack of the combinations? What were they originally intended to counter?

The answer I can conceive threw training and study is that there was never an intended set attack. The attacks given with any single technique should be viewed as examples and not the only way. Practice from various possible attacks is recomended, and with proper bunkai (anylazation) you can see all the possible ways a technique can work. Mainly techniques are meant to show different various body movements, because you can take any single block, for example, and turn it into a strike, throw, joint lock, choke, or even a kick (with movement converted from the arm to the legs & feet).

 

[stoneheart]

Yup. The techs should be viewed only as a starting point, although many schools just drill them over and over again without taking into account the inevitable variations.

I've seen a kenpo line where the 'victim' is attacked free-style. It's his job to adapt the techs he has already learned to fit the situation. So while you might not get off a perfect rendition of Five Swords, you can certainly spawn a variation of it, if you understand the kenpo principles in the first place.

 

[Blindside]

I've seen a kenpo line where the 'victim' is attacked free-style. It's his job to adapt the techs he has already learned to fit the situation. So while you might not get off a perfect rendition of Five Swords, you can certainly spawn a variation of it, if you understand the kenpo principles in the first place.

Don't all kenpo schools do this? If not, why not?

Lamont

 

[stoneheart]

Because it's hard. Same reason why some schools don't spar or if they do, they don't allow even medium contact.

I won't mention any names, but not all kenpo is good kenpo.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Don't all kenpo schools do this? If not, why not?

Lamont

One reason they might not do it, is because recalling tech sequences and dealing with a feestyle situation are two distnctly different things. Concepts such as economy of motion must then be implimented to where a student is constantly choosing the closest weapon to the closest target while still achieving the desired effect. The key is to get them to think in terms of acting on what they have available to them and not in terms of trying to somehow fit what they want to do in to a complex situation.
Sean

 

[SK101]

The combinations are all taught against a strandard straight punch. However, the original kajukenbo counters and even AK techniques are against differing attacks. to compensate we learn them the standard way and then begin to apply them against various attacks. Does anyone know the original intent or attack of the combinations? What were they originally intended to counter? Again our kajukenbo brothers could be the biggest help here

Respectfully,
Marlon

Hello Marlon,

Just my two cents, but I believe that many versions of SK techniques are taught for a particular type of attack even if it is simply a high punch versus the low punch. Often they are taught from right straight punch to chest. From a teaching point of view it is much easier to learn techniques all from one attack otherwise you have to memorize the attack as well as the defense.

I.E. DM(Combination)5 - Often taught as Box step left knife hand block with right driving chicken directly below. Right circular backfist to the nose. Right side thrust kick to solar plexus or ribs depending on how they are standing.

USSD states this as a modified knife technique in their manual. To apply it against a straight knife the initial block becomes rising chicken wrist and dropping knife hand to the wrist(slightly offset, if you can break their wrist than you can probably break your own if line the strikes up and you miss). This is supposed to drop the knife. Instead of just backfisting on the next move you also perform grab the opponents wrist if they still have the knife this will help control them, but personnally the side kick is going to the knee at that point as I am not going see if my grip is tight enough to keep the knife from pulling between my hands.

At first glance for a beginner student they may ask why do we this crazy chicken wrist knife hand block thingy at the beginning of the straight punch version of #5. Possible answer, it's closer to the knife technique they want you to eventually have as DM #5. It works against a straight punch, but it looks funny and always gets the question why not use a simpler block.

I think that DM #5 stands out to many people, because USSD does list it as having a knife alternative in the manual, but I don't think it is the only one. I would suspect there are many if not all.

 

[Gufbal1982]

Hello Marlon,

Just my two cents, but I believe that many versions of SK techniques are taught for a particular type of attack even if it is simply a high punch versus the low punch. Often they are taught from right straight punch to chest. From a teaching point of view it is much easier to learn techniques all from one attack otherwise you have to memorize the attack as well as the defense.

I.E. DM(Combination)5 - Often taught as Box step left knife hand block with right driving chicken directly below. Right circular backfist to the nose. Right side thrust kick to solar plexus or ribs depending on how they are standing.

USSD states this as a modified knife technique in their manual. To apply it against a straight knife the initial block becomes rising chicken wrist and dropping knife hand to the wrist(slightly offset, if you can break their wrist than you can probably break your own if line the strikes up and you miss). This is supposed to drop the knife. Instead of just backfisting on the next move you also perform grab the opponents wrist if they still have the knife this will help control them, but personnally the side kick is going to the knee at that point as I am not going see if my grip is tight enough to keep the knife from pulling between my hands.

At first glance for a beginner student they may ask why do we this crazy chicken wrist knife hand block thingy at the beginning of the straight punch version of #5. Possible answer, it's closer to the knife technique they want you to eventually have as DM #5. It works against a straight punch, but it looks funny and always gets the question why not use a simpler block.

I think that DM #5 stands out to many people, because USSD does list it as having a knife alternative in the manual, but I don't think it is the only one. I would suspect there are many if not all.

right before I left USSD, they were trying to standardize the knife techniques. The first one is DM/combination 7, but with a check and grab. Honestly, anything is possible with the techniques...you just have to open your mind.

 

[Jdokan]

I posted a similar answer in another area...How I deal with Combos', Ping Te's, etc...Is to practice each against a different type of punch. example #2 Combination I block against a: hooking punch, overhand punch & straight punch. Trying to make the technique work regardless of the punch...this forces me to alter my "style" of defense...It becomes obvious that some tech's are better suited against certain types of attacks...BUT...
Rather than trying to have 75 differnt techniques I maintain 45 against any type of attack...(with reason) singel handed grabs, lapel, etc...For certain attacks ie..bear hugs (front or rear) I try to pull from my forms...For what it's worth...

 

[Matt]

I posted a similar answer in another area...How I deal with Combos', Ping Te's, etc...Is to practice each against a different type of punch. example #2 Combination I block against a: hooking punch, overhand punch & straight punch. Trying to make the technique work regardless of the punch...this forces me to alter my "style" of defense...It becomes obvious that some tech's are better suited against certain types of attacks...BUT...
Rather than trying to have 75 differnt techniques I maintain 45 against any type of attack...(with reason) singel handed grabs, lapel, etc...For certain attacks ie..bear hugs (front or rear) I try to pull from my forms...For what it's worth...

I think that there is a strong argument for generalizing a small subset of material off of a large variety of attacks. Two weeks ago in class, I had the students practicing combinations (by the end of class) off of either a jab-cross combo or a two handed push to the chest followed by a haymaker from a moving (like they were sparring) attacker. Last week, we did the same sort of thing except on a random basis, once the student started the defense, the attacker could (but didn't always) throw one more strike off the left hand. It really keeps folks on their toes, but if they can do that, they are much more likely to be able to pull techniques off in a more realistic context.

Matt

 

[LawDog]

At my school our students practice all of our one vs one, empty hand impacting type material against a varity of attacks and non attacks.
Single strikes - straight front & rear, downward, hooking etc.
Double strikes - combination of straights or hooking.
Footwork used - shuffle, step & drag, side steps and a few cross steps.
Non attacks - Your opponent is stationary, not striking and you use a combo as an attack.
Each one of these attackes is used against a combination that best applies to it.

Combinations should be applied against the types attackes that they are best suited for.
In "Kodokan" Judo their throws are very position specific, the same holds true in Jujitsu. Judo uses the five position application, all of your suppressions are practiced against five different postions. The lead in to these positions are altered to fit the position.

The point is that not all of the combinations should be, in my opinon, practiced against a cross step with a lock out strike.

 

[LawDog]

Right Handed System.
The basic Kenpo/Kempo system that has moved across the country and has ended up in the North East has often be referred to as a right handed system. Many say/have said that this reference to being a "right handed system" was/is due to the fact that the attacker always strikes with the right hand and/or the defender uses right sided strikes to defend.
On the surface these point of views are correct. What has been overlook is the overall tactical theory behind a right handed system.

A right handed system, from a tactical view point, means that students are being taught to counter attack after the right arm locks out.
:ultracool

 

[Jdokan]

I think that there is a strong argument for generalizing a small subset of material off of a large variety of attacks. Two weeks ago in class, I had the students practicing combinations (by the end of class) off of either a jab-cross combo or a two handed push to the chest followed by a haymaker from a moving (like they were sparring) attacker. Last week, we did the same sort of thing except on a random basis, once the student started the defense, the attacker could (but didn't always) throw one more strike off the left hand. It really keeps folks on their toes, but if they can do that, they are much more likely to be able to pull techniques off in a more realistic context.

Matt

This is very similar to we've done....One example is a drill where the attacker and defender are at finger tips reach (just for safety) and the attacker can throw any strikes they want..the defender then using their gained knowledge can: use combinations/ping te's, or they can do a reactionary move letting themselves flow into whatever makes sense. It has to be applicably correct though...we then increase the drill adding kicks, grabs, etc...eventually it moves into a semi-kumite session (adding body movement)trying to add as much realism as possible....The latter part of this drill tends to work better for the advanced classes more than the entry-level, but by starting the entry level within the horse stance they eventually work into the semi-kumite session....It is a fun drill that can take on all aspects of the techniques that they have been picking up..learning that they CAN make them work from a variety of angles, etc....