Skip dan

[KELLYG]

To chery pick from the quote from Terry." I have been a victim of fake certificate and I am a 4th, sure I could be a 7th by now "

I understand about belt gratification that goes along with some martial arts schools, but should terry if he were willing be able to obtain the belt level that his skill set represents?

 

[KGTKD]

Yes it might but in all honesty I would never skip Dan for any rank, I have been a victim of fake cetificate and I am a 4th, sure I could be a 7th by now but in the end who really cares about stripes on there belt? It is about traing and teaching and that is the part that means everything to me.

IMHO it matters when you should have your 4th KKW, and don't and because of that, can't offer that opportunity (giving KKW) to others (if you own a school and test someone for black belt). So I think that in those times Skip Rank is valid. Just rushing into a higher dan because one feels entitled, is not a good reason in my opinion.

Granted I have seen 5th Dan tests that are a joke, frankly because for some reason (and correct me if I am wrong), when school owners get up there in rank, many (not everyone)stop exercising and increase their junk food eating habits, and start looking like hypocrits teaching about a "healthy livestyle". I have also seen 5th Dan tests that are hard earned, harder than 1st Dan tests. I would think that those stripes mean something to that person.

I was talking to an IR last year about stripes. And he told us that the reason they don't have stripes over there, is because the rank is written in Korean on the actual belt. Us Americans usually can't read Korean, so we started using stripes. I don't know if he was right or wrong.

lol, I just reread my post, and it seems like I've ventured off topic again. Sorry about that.

 

[dancingalone]

One of the reasons given for desiring higher KKW rank in the other thread was to make sure one could test and award higher dan ranks to one's students, in the name of portability if the student ever moved elsewhere. I suppose that makes sense if you're big into the KKW and 'standardized' martial arts in general.

The kind of MA I'm interested in these days really doesn't fit into an international standardized curriculum, so like Flying Crane, I don't really give a fig about skipping dans or gaining my 'rightful due' or what not. Whatever rank I get (and I got a juicy one recently) from my sensei is more than enough for me.

I do wish TKD ranks were more modest though. Seems like you run into a 5th dan or higher on every street corner, many from entirely legit orgs and not merely self-bestowed.

 

[sempai little1]

I am in Karate so I guess I am a little confused about how TWD has so many 5th dans that this is a problem.
5ths are not a dime a dozen here where I am. What is the critiria for each dan?
Or what is the general practice, I know each school or organization might differ slightly
Your friend,
Sempai Little1 :wavey:

 

[KGTKD]

It involved people testing not with their instructor but rather with a big organization, kukkiwon and some other State-side org. I believe, and petitioning to skip one or more Dan grades in the test. I guess the candidate was allowed to determine the level for which he wished to test. And it sounds like there were substantial fees involved for the tests as well, more so if you wanted to skip levels.

Apparently nobody who requested to skip Dan grades was awarded the highest that they requested, but some were skipped nevertheless.

This kind of arrangement simply does not make sense to me. That is what sparked my comments.

I reread your post, and much of the resentment/frustration has to do with USAT as an organization and KKW as the gold standard for Olympic Style TKD. There is a lot of history about what having a KKW certificate means and the makeup of the USAT. As you stated that you are not familiar with either of those, I agree that it would seem a bit difficult trying to understand from your point of view.

 

[KGTKD]

I do wish TKD ranks were more modest though. Seems like you run into a 5th dan or higher on every street corner, many from entirely legit orgs and not merely self-bestowed.

Lol, yeah I bet ifyou ask those people if they have their KKW, my guess is that they don't . In our city there are about 8 Olympic Style TKD schools. None of their "6th Dan" instructors have their KKW. I guess that half of those don't even know what KKW is.

 

[terryl965]

To chery pick from the quote from Terry." I have been a victim of fake certificate and I am a 4th, sure I could be a 7th by now "

I understand about belt gratification that goes along with some martial arts schools, but should terry if he were willing be able to obtain the belt level that his skill set represents?

Simply put NO!!! I will wait until my time is in and then test, like I said rank means very little for me right now. As long as I have a qualify person to issue rank for my astudents that will not charge them 1,000's of dollars I am fine with it.

 

[dancingalone]

I am in Karate so I guess I am a little confused about how TWD has so many 5th dans that this is a problem.
5ths are not a dime a dozen here where I am. What is the critiria for each dan?
Or what is the general practice, I know each school or organization might differ slightly
Your friend,
Sempai Little1 :wavey:

Well, IMO high ranks are fairly common in KKW taekwondo, at least for the Koreans. There's a sixth dan master in my little suburb. He's a native Korean who actually graduated from a Korean university with a degree in taekwondo. He told me that graduates of the program he was in automatically are awarded a 4th dan Kukkiwon along with their diploma. Now you wait a few years while teaching and running your own school and then you can easily earn your fifth and sixth degrees.

I don't know how easy it is to progress to 7th -9th dan in KKW, but I consider sixth dan in general to be a very high rank, one I'll never achieve since I believe my karate instructor is a 'only' a sixth dan himself and he's in his late sixties.

 

[KGTKD]

I don't know how easy it is to progress to 7th -9th dan in KKW, but I consider sixth dan in general to be a very high rank, one I'll never achieve since I believe my karate instructor is a 'only' a sixth dan himself and he's in his late sixties.

FYI, In order to progress you have the wait your current Dan rank in years. If you are 6th going to 7th, you have to wait 6 years (plus meet the age qualification).

I am guessing that your Karate instructor also does TaeKwonDo if he has his 6th Dan KKW?

 

[sempai little1]

Well, IMO high ranks are fairly common in KKW taekwondo, at least for the Koreans. There's a sixth dan master in my little suburb. He's a native Korean who actually graduated from a Korean university with a degree in taekwondo. He told me that graduates of the program he was in automatically are awarded a 4th dan Kukkiwon along with their diploma. Now you wait a few years while teaching and running your own school and then you can easily earn your fifth and sixth degrees.

I don't know how easy it is to progress to 7th -9th dan in KKW, but I consider sixth dan in general to be a very high rank, one I'll never achieve since I believe my karate instructor is a 'only' a sixth dan himself and he's in his late sixties.

I'm thinking if you went to college to study TWD, you probably earned your rank.
Is there not a body of Black Belts who could award you your next level? We have The Karate Council of Canada for that purpose. School owners, high ranking BB, or students who think they are ready to grade up, but Sensei's are not high enough rank to grade them up can apply to the council to be seen and graded.
I know there is one in Okinawa that my Shihan answers to, they are who will award him his 8th dan when it is time.
Just a thought.
Your friend,
Sempai Little1 :wavey:

 

[dancingalone]

FYI, In order to progress you have the wait your current Dan rank in years. If you are 6th going to 7th, you have to wait 6 years (plus meet the age qualification).

I am guessing that your Karate instructor also does TaeKwonDo if he has his 6th Dan KKW?

No, I consider myself primarily a Goju-Ryu karate man now. My instructor is a sixth dan (I think. He's coy about it, but I do see his certificate every time I visit his home and I think that's what it says in kanji).

I'm a 4th dan goju, but I also earned a 2nd dan TKD from years ago. My teacher has no active teacher for himself, so he won't be going up the ranks any more. And he is getting up there in age... so you do the math on whether I'll ever make sixth dan myself.

 

[dancingalone]

I'm thinking if you went to college to study TWD, you probably earned your rank.

Perhaps. I find the thought utterly foreign to me, though.

Is there not a body of Black Belts who could award you your next level? We have The Karate Council of Canada for that purpose. School owners, high ranking BB, or students who think they are ready to grade up, but Sensei's are not high enough rank to grade them up can apply to the council to be seen and graded.
I know there is one in Okinawa that my Shihan answers to, they are who will award him his 8th dan when it is time.

My sensei was affiliated with the Jundokan in Okinawa at one point but he hasn't been connected with them in decades. All of my Goju rank is essentially home-growned, just like in the old days. I have no desire to earn rank that does not come from my sensei. Perhaps when he passes on, I will seek out an affiliation, but only if it comes with genuine instruction to help me grow as a karate-ka. I don't need some org's paper to be happy with my progress in MA.

 

[Flying Crane]

I reread your post, and much of the resentment/frustration has to do with USAT as an organization and KKW as the gold standard for Olympic Style TKD. There is a lot of history about what having a KKW certificate means and the makeup of the USAT. As you stated that you are not familiar with either of those, I agree that it would seem a bit difficult trying to understand from your point of view.

Yeah, I guess I don't understand the role that these two orgs play, and how they interact with each other, and how membership/affiliation in one relates to the other.

 

[troubleenuf]

Thats true in theory... and is the way it is "supposed" to be. However I know a few people who knew the right people or at least had the "right amount" of $$$ that didnt have to wait the required amount of time.

FYI, In order to progress you have the wait your current Dan rank in years. If you are 6th going to 7th, you have to wait 6 years (plus meet the age qualification).

I am guessing that your Karate instructor also does TaeKwonDo if he has his 6th Dan KKW?

 

[seasoned]

This is like a kid skipping some of his teen years. Or maybe an adult skipping their mid-twenties. Time breeds maturity, and between dan ranks, could mean years, I say stick it out.

 

[goingd]

I feel that if one has the skill level for a certain rank, as well as the time and experience that there is not much of a problem with skipping to that rank. There is a difference between skipping for the sake of chasing rank and skipping to a point of rank that actually reflects the martial artist. Does everyone have to? Of course not. And they should of course have the right reasons for it.
The kind of vibe I've gotten is something like this,
"Skipping rank, even when one deserves to, undermines those who test one belt at a time."
To me that is like saying gay marriage undermines "traditional" marriage. (just using that as an analogy; no intention to go way off subject)

 

[J Ellis]

There is a difference between skipping for the sake of chasing rank and skipping to a point of rank that actually reflects the martial artist.

So what does an X-dan look like? There are crummy looking black belts in every system. So if I look better, train harder or longer, or can defeat another, higher ranker practitioner, can I take his belt?

Rank means little or nothing outside of the school and (perhaps, but not always) the organization it is given in.

If a sensei chooses to bump a given practitioner two grades higher, or an organization awards dan rank to an incoming BB from a similar system, I generally have no complaints. Putting yourself forward for dan rank, and suggesting you should be promoted to two grades higher than your current level is somewhat presumptive. How is this discussion remotely consistent with the humility advocated by many MA?

"Skipping rank, even when one deserves to, undermines those who test one belt at a time."

Not that a black belt means much anymore, except to those who sweat and bleed for the skills and feel unworthy of the hardware.

Joel

 

[goingd]

So what does an X-dan look like? There are crummy looking black belts in every system. So if I look better, train harder or longer, or can defeat another, higher ranker practitioner, can I take his belt?

Rank means little or nothing outside of the school and (perhaps, but not always) the organization it is given in.

If a sensei chooses to bump a given practitioner two grades higher, or an organization awards dan rank to an incoming BB from a similar system, I generally have no complaints. Putting yourself forward for dan rank, and suggesting you should be promoted to two grades higher than your current level is somewhat presumptive. How is this discussion remotely consistent with the humility advocated by many MA?



Not that a black belt means much anymore, except to those who sweat and bleed for the skills and feel unworthy of the hardware.

Joel

Some (or a lot of) black belts are worth more than others.

Putting yourself [undeservingly] forward and suggesting you should be promoted to two grades higher than your current level is presumptive indeed. If someone genuinely deserves that higher rank, then I don't see much of a problem with it. If someone felt they deserved a higher rank, but those testing them didn't feel the same way, well they have the final word regardless.

I feel people should only ever consider doing such a thing for the right reasons - like I said before. If those reasons are humble enough, and the skill exists, then consistency does not fade. What is "humble enough?" I don't know. My intention is not to argue but to state. The Kukkiwon by no means went about skip-Dan procedures perfectly, but they were not just selling rank to all those who felt deserving.

 

[Flying Crane]

The Kukkiwon by no means went about skip-Dan procedures perfectly, but they were not just selling rank to all those who felt deserving.

that is true, my impression from the original discussion was that nobody got the highest skip that they requested, but many did skip some level or other. The thing is, comments were also made that give the impression that substantial amounts of money are charged for these tests, and that increases with each level one wishes to skip. I saw a comment of $2000, I don't know if that was the price per dan grade, or a total price including multiple skips, or what, but that's a huge amount of money. Myself coming from a school and organization that disallows charging for tests, and in fact will demote instructors who get caught doing so, I find this shocking. I can't imagine paying that kind of money for a test, but that's just me I guess. Apparently plenty of people are willing to do so.

But paying this kind of money opens another big can of worms. Are people REALLY passing because they had a quality test, or because the check cleared? And if the Board decides to NOT promote someone, be it the next dan grade or some higher skipped level, are they now owed a refund? That's a huge amount of money to toss around, for some Board member to arbitrarily decide to not give the promotion.

But then it was also stated that people unhappy about the results can petition and complain and challenge the decision.

This whole picture is just really really bizarre to me. I don't get it, but hey, who says it needs to make sense to me? To each his own. Personally, I'd never have any involvement with this kind of organization. Just way too many cans of worms and dysfunctional relationships and stuff.

 

[dortiz]

"comments were also made that give the impression that substantial amounts of money are charged for these tests, and that increases with each level one wishes to skip. I saw a comment of $2000"

What you have to understand is that the Kukkiown fees are exceptionally less than what folks were told. Only until recently with the internet and globalization did this become apparent. For many it was thought and told the fees the teacher charged were due to the kukkiwon. I know someone that trains, teaches and is past due for their next Dan but just wont pay what their teacher charges. Some schools its 600 for first 1200 for 2nd 1800 for third etc etc etc. Remember kukkiwon is around 70, 90 100 something (at work cant look for it). But its very little compared.
So to most folks the Kukkiwon charges were huge savings to what a Master would have charged them to come over to the Kukkiwon with their ranks or to test for.

Dave O.