Skipping rank - that big a deal?
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andyjeffries
Senior Master
The point is though that if you are skipped a dan - you are wearing the rank you tested for (if you skip 1st to 3rd, you tested for 3rd and are wearing 3rd), you just don't have the rank you aren't wearing ;-)
Yah, thanks, I understand the concept. But when I tie on my belt I'm not just wearing a black belt. I'm also wearing a white belt, and an orange belt, and a brown belt, and every other rank I've tested for. And if I skipped from 4 to 6, then I'd be wearing a 5th black I didn't test for, and I wouldn't feel comfortable doing that.
Again, just me. If someone else feels good about it, and their instructors feel good belting them, good for all involved. But I wouldn't do it.
I also wouldn't just sew some ribbon on to my belt, which I know some instructors have done. For me, rank is too important. It isn't a message to the rest of the world. It's a reminder to myself. To be proud of my accomplishments and humble in my understanding of what more there is to accomplish. And I wouldn't want to be reminded of something that would bring me shame when I was laying in bed at night.
Again, I'm not disparaging people who do it. I'm just saying I wouldn't.
-Rob
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andyjeffries
Senior Master
I'm surprised. I don't feel like I'm wearing a 1st Dan. I used to wear a 1st Dan (for a 2 year period when I was 16) but when I got my 2nd Dan I then wore a 2nd Dan and my 1st Dan was a period of my life that I'd moved on from.
I don't ever feel like I'm wearing any rank except for my current rank.
I see it the same as my day job. I'm a technical lead for website development, but I don't also consider myself as a senior developer, developer and a junior developer. I used to be, but I've progressed and those are parts of my life that have ended.
Interesting concept though, thank you for sharing!
And I don't have anything against your approach. But just like I feel that my current skill is based on the first technique I ever learned, I feel that my current rank is based on the first belt I ever wore. I didn't get here except through there. That is important to me. And if I skipped a step or took a shortcut, which regardless of how skip ranks are seen by other people is how they would feel to me, I would feel that miss forever.
I didn't ever stop being a white belt. I'm just a black belt now too. That just means additional responsibilities, it doesn't mean I can leave my past responsibilities behind.
I think the comparison to a career is a little different. I used to sell comic books, as a pizza delivery driver I don't also feel like a comic book salesman. But my manager had better be able to take orders, cook pizzas, cut pizzas, and deliver pizzas, in addition to his management responsibilities. And if he ever skipped one of those steps, he's probably not a very good manager. I think we've probably all worked with people who were promoted to the top without spending time in the middle, and most of the time that doesn't work out very well. They don't usually have the perspective necessary to understand the challenges the people they work with are facing, because they never faced them. That's when you have nonsensical policies handed down without good reason. I think it would be hard for a sixth degree who was never a fifth degree to truly understand that rank, because he never held it.
-Rob
I thought is worth bringing this topic back up for discussion/inspection as it often seems to be a point of contention on MA boards (but oddly enough not so much face-to-face). Glenn aka puunui brought up a conversation he once had with GM Myung (Hapkido), my understanding is that Glenn was in agreement from additional comments he offered in that thread. Part of the conversation concerned skipped rank;
As both Glenn and I have Dan rank in the arts of HKD & TKD, this led to a discussion on the KKW special testing where skipped Dan grades were not only available, but advertised specifically. Glenn pointed out correctly, however, that it was the wrong thread to go into the discussion. So at his suggestion (and thank you), I looked this one up since it was fairly recent and relevant.
According to the Las Vegas KKW special testing flyer I received, the example was given of skipping six (6) Dan ranks as long as the highest three were paid for and the person qualified. I believe qualification was that 4th Dan and higher had to actually be present (1-3rd Dan did not have to actually be present at the testing to be promoted), perform two (2) forms and spar for one (1) minute. Glenn made this excellent contribution to this thread;
No one can dispute that Glenn has an in-depth knowledge base on the workings and pioneers of KKW TKD (as well as other). What I gather is that each and every rank has something unique to offer the practitioner of the art. To skip a rank, or ranks is actually causing the student to lose out in many ways. Again, Glenn offered excellent commentary in the Hapkido section;
Having never skipped rank, I'm having difficulty reconciling this subject should it ever come up within my circle(s). GM Myung who was a pillar of Hapkido and Glenn make a compelling point for being wary of people that skip ranks. Even to the point of suggesting that a Hapkidoin was questionable in the extreme if they had skipped ranks. Going back to the KKW, they not only offer skipped ranks now, but with the special testings popping up it is almost being encouraged. True, some of it is being offered to correct unethical practices on the parts of some Dojangs. That should have never occurred and is a topic for a different thread. True, it is offered for those that have sat at a particular grade beyond normal TIG. But looking at the commentary above, shouldn't a one-Dan promotion be sufficient? Would not multiple skipped Dan grades be detrimental to the TKD practitioner and make them questionable in the eyes of their peers? If so, why make this available to the TKD practitioner at all?
Thoughts...
As both Glenn and I have Dan rank in the arts of HKD & TKD, this led to a discussion on the KKW special testing where skipped Dan grades were not only available, but advertised specifically. Glenn pointed out correctly, however, that it was the wrong thread to go into the discussion. So at his suggestion (and thank you), I looked this one up since it was fairly recent and relevant.
According to the Las Vegas KKW special testing flyer I received, the example was given of skipping six (6) Dan ranks as long as the highest three were paid for and the person qualified. I believe qualification was that 4th Dan and higher had to actually be present (1-3rd Dan did not have to actually be present at the testing to be promoted), perform two (2) forms and spar for one (1) minute. Glenn made this excellent contribution to this thread;
No one can dispute that Glenn has an in-depth knowledge base on the workings and pioneers of KKW TKD (as well as other). What I gather is that each and every rank has something unique to offer the practitioner of the art. To skip a rank, or ranks is actually causing the student to lose out in many ways. Again, Glenn offered excellent commentary in the Hapkido section;
Having never skipped rank, I'm having difficulty reconciling this subject should it ever come up within my circle(s). GM Myung who was a pillar of Hapkido and Glenn make a compelling point for being wary of people that skip ranks. Even to the point of suggesting that a Hapkidoin was questionable in the extreme if they had skipped ranks. Going back to the KKW, they not only offer skipped ranks now, but with the special testings popping up it is almost being encouraged. True, some of it is being offered to correct unethical practices on the parts of some Dojangs. That should have never occurred and is a topic for a different thread. True, it is offered for those that have sat at a particular grade beyond normal TIG. But looking at the commentary above, shouldn't a one-Dan promotion be sufficient? Would not multiple skipped Dan grades be detrimental to the TKD practitioner and make them questionable in the eyes of their peers? If so, why make this available to the TKD practitioner at all?
Thoughts...
Well I take Kung Fu, we don't use the Dan system. We don't wear a sash unless it is a ceremony, The only thing we emphasize is what you know and what you will learn next. Somehow magically everyone seems to know who is senior. Everyone shows everyone else the same respect.
We have had issues that have delayed a testing ceremony. Since we only have two or three a year, if a test or two is missed and you don't receive the next sash, you still continue your training. A sash or belt should not define what you know or get to train, the curriculum and your knowledge of it should define what sash/belt you are given. It is plausible that a sash could learn the next sash requirements if a test or two is missed since we have so few.
If the student has X level knowledge of the curriculum, present them with the sash or belt in your organization that corresponds with X level knowledge of the curriculum, regardless of their current rank.
It seem odd that someone would refuse a rank (in a legitimate situation) because they didn't "hold" the previous rank by wearing a specific piece of cloth. If the knowledge was there than so was the rank, no matter what you wear. If the piece of cloth was there then nothing more than a piece of cloth was there, regardless of what you know.
We have had issues that have delayed a testing ceremony. Since we only have two or three a year, if a test or two is missed and you don't receive the next sash, you still continue your training. A sash or belt should not define what you know or get to train, the curriculum and your knowledge of it should define what sash/belt you are given. It is plausible that a sash could learn the next sash requirements if a test or two is missed since we have so few.
If the student has X level knowledge of the curriculum, present them with the sash or belt in your organization that corresponds with X level knowledge of the curriculum, regardless of their current rank.
It seem odd that someone would refuse a rank (in a legitimate situation) because they didn't "hold" the previous rank by wearing a specific piece of cloth. If the knowledge was there than so was the rank, no matter what you wear. If the piece of cloth was there then nothing more than a piece of cloth was there, regardless of what you know.
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Because its more than just a piece of cloth, yes? Its training the material and doing what needs to be done to train for and sit for the test. Many people seem like they are in such a hurry to rush though their degrees of black belt, why? If the system places enough values on dan ranks and testing to have a test for each dan rank, shouldn't that system be respected by.....following it?
Exactly! I haven't actually worn my BB since 2005 or so, except once for a photo. And before that I rarely wore it except for things like testing someone formally. Yet everyone of my students knew I was the instructor. Same could be said for instructors prior to the advent of belts.
Carol said:
Ah, now that is a very good question. How many arts have an actual test for each and every Dan rank? Or at what point does testing stop and things like TIG, contributions to the art etc take over?
TaekwonTiger
White Belt
Would you say the issue is with skipping any rank or mainly from one dan to the next?
I've heard of a few double promotions for kup grades, 8th to 6th kup or maybe even 6th to 4th kup?
I've heard of a few double promotions for kup grades, 8th to 6th kup or maybe even 6th to 4th kup?
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andyjeffries
Senior Master
If the instructor doesn't limit the student to just the learning the things for their current rank, then they know the material for a skip dan.
I wasn't in a hurry to rush through the degrees. That's part of why my Grandmaster wanted to skip me rank - for the TIG I should have had a much higher rank and he wanted to catch me up to where he felt I was. "if you feel/act/perform like a Z dan and you have time in rank, you should be a Z dan" sort of opinion. Personally it undid a mistake I felt in my life (not promoting when I was eligible) and I was very grateful for the opportunity.
If the system has a set of rules for skipping dan ranks (Kukkiwon), then shouldn't that system be able to be followed without second-guessing it?
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andyjeffries
Senior Master
Personally I think double promotions for kup grades have much less of a stigma attached to them. I have no issue with any skip/double/jump ranks. I think people should have the rank they are worth/deserve. If people work harder are more naturally gifted they should promote faster (through the kup ranks). If people haven't graded "on time" during the dan ranks, I see nothing wrong with helping them catch up. But I think I'm in a minority...
I don't know, should it be second guessed? How do you feel about the words of GM Myung then?
Although the quote was directed at Hapkidoin, I would suggest that it could legitimately be applied to any art. From his, and others perspective, you would not be a 'real' TKD practitioner but rather you would be looked upon as 'questionable' because you chose to skip rank. Note, these are not my words or views but I bring them up as I think the contrast is something that needs to be honestly looked at. One the one hand, a Korean GM would view you as questionable at best and on the other is a Korean organization pushing 'special testing' in various countries and advertising that up to six Dan levels can be skipped as long as the highest three are paid for and the individual can do two forms and spar for one minute. Two different viewpoints.
I don't care if someone skipped rank if it was for a legitimate reason. But I also have to look at the other side of 'why' would anyone feel the need to skip rank? Wouldn't you have been happy with a single promotion? Or perhaps a single promotion and a shortened time to the next promotion. I've mentioned before the story of George Mattson (first American Uechi Ryu BB) while he trained in Okinawa. He trained along side several 'white belts' that obviously were extremely powerful Karateka. When he inquired, it turned out they were Godans (5th Dan). They wore white belts to keep their tops closed and just never got around to getting a black one and didn't figure it would improve their training if they did.
No its not, I have inspected them. They are cotton and felt, or silk/sythetics if you get the fancy ones. They bestow no knowledge, they bestow no physical (or metaphysical) abilities. They guarantee absolutely nothing about the person wearing it.
What they can signify is an acknowledgement by your organization or school that you learned the curriculum at a designated level and have at least demonstrated in public the personal qualities that the organization or school finds favorable.
Absolutely, you should give the person the rank that corresponds with the their knowledge of the curriculum, whether rank(s) are skipped or not. If ranks need to be skipped, it is up to the teacher/organization to figure out why and correct the situation that caused it. Why punish the student by delaying their progression for trusting their school and learning what they are taught.
If you are a student in this situation it is your right and responsibly to ask why you should skip rank, if you decline its not humility, you don't trust your instructors to promote you properly and should leave that day.
Rank will not make you a better MA'ist that is up to each person. I have seen 5-8dans that canot preform a simple block or throw a punch with any power and then I have seen yellow belts that can kick the **** out of people. Rank just means your instructor felt you deserved it for a reason whether that is because you understand can preform it or time in, it really does not matter train and keep learning and remember a rank means very little except for those wearing it.
This is what I find somewhat contradictory & confusing;
Okay, so you were not in a hurry and apparently satisfied with where you were at and how you got there.
Breaking the above quote down, first the part in the normal font; You were satisfied and not in a hurry, therefore it sounds like you're putting more emphasis on the training than on the rank. Which is the way it should be imo. But now your GM wants to hurry you through for some reason? Second part that is in italics; now you're feeling it was a mistake not to promote? First you're not in any hurry and now you're feeling it was a mistake? And you're grateful to be able to 'catch up' when before it wasn't a big deal? Sounds like the training gave way to the rank?
I might be able to see this if the practitioner wanted to test but was not allowed to do so through no fault of their own i.e. school closed, racial discrimination, unethical business practice on the part of the instructor etc. But Andy above doesn't fall into this category. He chose to, from the sound of it, put emphasis on training over rank. He didn't want to hurry through any particular rank. Then, for some reason, he needs to play catch-up and skip rank. He wasn't denied the opportunity to test and promote.
I've seen people personally that were denied promotion based solely on racial discrimination. When that double standard exceeded loyalty they left the school and trained elsewhere. They were eligible for a 'skip' promotion and indeed could easily demonstrate TIG for the skip and the skills necessary to justify it. But they only promoted one-step at a time regardless. They felt it was better to proceed in a normal progression despite the fact they could have received more. I've also seen personally a practitioner ask the GM to wear a simple white belt even though they were eligible for considerably higher. The GM put no pressure on them to promote and respected their view.
Okay, so you were not in a hurry and apparently satisfied with where you were at and how you got there.
Breaking the above quote down, first the part in the normal font; You were satisfied and not in a hurry, therefore it sounds like you're putting more emphasis on the training than on the rank. Which is the way it should be imo. But now your GM wants to hurry you through for some reason? Second part that is in italics; now you're feeling it was a mistake not to promote? First you're not in any hurry and now you're feeling it was a mistake? And you're grateful to be able to 'catch up' when before it wasn't a big deal? Sounds like the training gave way to the rank?
rainsr said:
I might be able to see this if the practitioner wanted to test but was not allowed to do so through no fault of their own i.e. school closed, racial discrimination, unethical business practice on the part of the instructor etc. But Andy above doesn't fall into this category. He chose to, from the sound of it, put emphasis on training over rank. He didn't want to hurry through any particular rank. Then, for some reason, he needs to play catch-up and skip rank. He wasn't denied the opportunity to test and promote.
I've seen people personally that were denied promotion based solely on racial discrimination. When that double standard exceeded loyalty they left the school and trained elsewhere. They were eligible for a 'skip' promotion and indeed could easily demonstrate TIG for the skip and the skills necessary to justify it. But they only promoted one-step at a time regardless. They felt it was better to proceed in a normal progression despite the fact they could have received more. I've also seen personally a practitioner ask the GM to wear a simple white belt even though they were eligible for considerably higher. The GM put no pressure on them to promote and respected their view.
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andyjeffries
Senior Master
I would say that I respect his right to have an opinion but mine differs. I don't care whether people have all the certificates or not, I look at their latest grade and then form an opinion as to whether they are worth that rank.
The Kukkiwon doesn't allow for a shortened time to the next promotion in this case (only for events such as winning the World Championship/Olympics or a commendation from your country's premier/president/prime minister/etc).
I would have been happy with a single promotion, but my grandmaster thought I was worth skipping so he said I should do it. As I've said before, if my GM thinks I'm worth Z Dan, who am I to say he doesn't know what he's talking about.
My attitude to rank changed between when I promoted to 3rd Dan and 5th Dan (and I'll explain further in my response to your other post).
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andyjeffries
Senior Master
Hopefully I'll be able to clarify.
This is correct. I spent 12 years as a 3rd Dan. Initially I was unhappy with our national association and the way they handled my Kukkiwon paperwork (from others I've spoken to recently I got off with relatively few issues as it turns out...). I was happy just to keep training and improving under my Master (I'd lost contact with my Grandmaster for about 7-8 years).
This was the way I felt during those 7-8 years. Then I got back in touch with my Grandmaster and he changed my opinion over the course of a number of long phone conversations and post training session chats. The way I felt after that was that he was right. Rank is fairly unimportant if you found your own art and just want to do what you want. But if you want to be a part of a larger international community (such as Kukki-Taekwondoin) you need to have higher rank to promote people with standardised certification.
Having higher rank allows you to help more people get higher rank. This seems a strange goal (get higher rank to get more people higher rank), but in reality it's how we pass on and help grow the art. We need good qualified instructors and masters to create more good qualified instructors and masters. If people stick at lower dan ranks for long periods of time then they aren't helping people to become qualified instructors and masters.
Taekwondo really helped me in my life (I was fairly severely bullied and low in confidence when I was a child) and I've decided that I want to pass on the art to others to help them. I want my students to grow through the ranks and in age and want to do the same.
I also feel that people should have a rank appropriate to their experience/level. I'm not caught up in the "must have every certificate" mindset either as no one has ever asked to see my old certificates. This is good, because in my case I don't have my 1st or 2nd Dan Kukkiwon certificates either (in those days we had to send the original back to the national association when testing for new rank and they were never returned).
Hopefully I explained this above. My GM isn't hurrying me through, he's helping me catch up to where I should be.
Hopefully this is clearer that it was a change in mindset from "me and my rank" to "how my rank affects how I can help others".
This may be a bit of a muddled post - I uncharacteristically got rather drunk last night (I only really drink 2 or 3 times a year) at a party we hosted and I'm fairly hungover today!
I hope everyone had a great Christmas and I wish you all a prosperous New Year!
Actually you did a very fine job of clarifying your viewpoint. Thank you.
You see, I actually felt it very odd for someone to think they could pass a judgement on another practitioner of the arts based solely upon if their certificates line up in numerical order. That would be about the last thing to look at, as it really have little to no relevance on the skill level of the practitioner. Rather, what they can personally demonstrate as well as the ability to teach would be the prime consideration(s). Now, in my opinion, I don't think that is what the KKW really has as an underlying motivation for their special testings, however, I think there are going to be at least some practitioners that receive legitimate benefit. It needs to be taken on a case-by-case basis because lumping everyone into the same mold is folly.
Thank you again for taking the time to demonstrate that skipping rank really isn't the issue that some try to make it. As long as one can walk the walk, wall candy is inconsequential.
I wouldn't necessarily jump to the conclusion that your opinion differs from GM Myung's. He wasn't speaking about your situation, but rather a situation that has developed specifically within hapkido. Hapkido is such a rich and deep art. It really is a shame that so few truly "get it". And one of the reasons why so few truly get it was the topic which GM Myung and I were discussing when he made his comments about skip dan.
