SKH Books a representation of Bujinkan?

[Tgace]

OK. I was just wondering about the photos of Hayes performing techniques in the books against opponents. Beyond depth of stance and the fire, water etc. approach. Are those techniques way out from what the Booj guys do? I too was a big Hayes fan in the 80's and have the books. Now im curious...

 

[Cryozombie]

Let me try to give a more detailed explination.

You can see that the Kamae that he does looks like what you see Hatsumi and others do for the most part. The difference is that begginers in Japan are told to drop their hips more to build up strength and develop better habits. If you train with lowered hips, then when the fecal matter hits the fan, you will be able to move better even though you won't get into as deep a kamae as you were in training.

I think a good example, if you want to see some of the differences in this... Look back at Hatsumi's book from 1971, "Stick Fighting" and then look at the Hayes books from early in his career in the 80's and you will see dramatic differences in the stances. If memory serves correctly this also would hold true of the Togakure-Ryu video from the early-mid eighties, compared to the SKH books.

 

[Satt]

I think a good example, if you want to see some of the differences in this... Look back at Hatsumi's book from 1971, "Stick Fighting" and then look at the Hayes books from early in his career in the 80's and you will see dramatic differences in the stances. If memory serves correctly this also would hold true of the Togakure-Ryu video from the early-mid eighties, compared to the SKH books.

Hey, I have just been recently reading the Stickfighting book. I am really enjoying it. I was on a website the other day and they mentioned that "Ninjutsu, History and Tradition" is no longer in print and that "Stickfighting" is soon to follow. So don't get rid of them!!!
:whip:

 

[arnisador]

The stickfighting book is a good one! I recently picked up the newer Advanced STick Fighting book but haven't had a chance to really explore it yet.

 

[Senin]

I think a good example, if you want to see some of the differences in this... Look back at Hatsumi's book from 1971, "Stick Fighting" and then look at the Hayes books from early in his career in the 80's and you will see dramatic differences in the stances. If memory serves correctly this also would hold true of the Togakure-Ryu video from the early-mid eighties, compared to the SKH books.

This makes me wonder-- where did SKH get his stuff for all of this books? I could've sworn that Soke made SKH a shihan in Bujinkan ninjutsu. You would think that the stuff in the book would be Bujinkan ninjutsu.

 

[Cryozombie]

This makes me wonder-- where did SKH get his stuff for all of this books? I could've sworn that Soke made SKH a shihan in Bujinkan ninjutsu. You would think that the stuff in the book would be Bujinkan ninjutsu.

I dont doubt that it is Hayes interpretation of what he was taught... I think Don gave a reasonable explaination why the stances were done the way hayes did them...

 

[Gina Jordan]

The difference is that begginers in Japan are told to drop their hips more to build up strength and develop better habits. If you train with lowered hips,

Yes, this may not come across to well in the books. I know when I discussed this with An Shu Hayes, he said that there are all kinds of problems with photographing martial arts moves, and simply that some of the leg movements that appeared in some of the photographs looked really strange.

Now the early books may not be a representation of the Bujinkan. But what we have to remember is that An Shu Hayes was training before the Bujinkan came about. Remember I said that An Shu Hayes was training in Japan only two years after Takamatsu Sensei had died. Things were very different then. An Shu Hayes has told me this, as has Tanemura, and I believe Doron Navon mentioned it once. Now of course the techniques were the same, but training was Oh so much more intense. Today I think that form is concentrated on much more, but in the early days it was about "How can we make this stuff really work" or "Does it work".

An Shu Hayes once told me that training was never fun. It was brutal and only later did he realise that the reason he had been allowed to train was that the Japanese wanted a big guy to try the techniques out on.

Now if we take "Ninjutsu the art of the Invisible Warrior" which was published in 1984 and was probably written at least a year before that, I believe we have a good example of a brilliant Ninjutsu book written for beginners.

It starts of with an introduction and introduces Hatsumi Sensei, the nine schools, and the Bujinkan. The book then goes on to look at cultural and training values and on page 9 there is a picture of training in Hatsumis Dojo. Can you imagine trying to do deep leg movements in that small space. A bit different to today.

The book then moves onto bowing and then to Taiso (Body Conditioning). Then there is a an intro to Taijutsu. Wow look at some of those wide deep postures. Then of course some basic striking drills are shown, followed by Kaiten. The book then goes into techniques and although not named we have Musha Dori, Omote and Ura Gyaku, Ganseki Nage, and of course some of the striking. In fact almost all of the Kihon Happo.

The book then follows with some weapons drills and finally some firearms methods and roots of the spiritual traditions.

In my view nothing but a great book outlining what Hatsumi Sensei was probably teaching at the time.

In my view the Mystic Arts which was published in 1985 is equally a good book. Again Kihon Happo is shown together with some basic sword cuts and even some technique from the Gyokko Ryu. And in both books not a mention of the Godai.

Even in the Ohara series the Godai is only really mentioned in the first two volumes. Volume three, four and five contain other material, that relates very much to Ninjutsu.

Yes I appreciate that the books may not be everyones cup of tea as they are written in a completely different style to Hatsumi Sensei. No two people are the same.

Since 1985 things have moved on enormously in the Bujinkan. There are now thousands of people training and probably thousands holding black belt. It may be time for much more to be published on Ninjutsu like the individual techniques and for Hatsumi Sensei to speak on a much deeper level. But one has to take into consideration that An Shu Hayes books were written for a general audience who were becoming interested in and/or just starting out on the path of warriorship.

One of my other hobbies (hopefully soon to be a business) is magic. Now when I first started I picked up a Marvins Magic Trick set and a book called "Mark Wilsons complete course in magic". These two items kept me entertained and learning for about a year. Now six years latter I am reading material by Ed Marlo about advanced card sleights, and I almost never pick up Mark Wilson course anymore, and certainy the Marvin Magic set was given away years ago. But that does not mean that they are bad things. They did what they intended to do and that was to set me out on the road to magic and teach me the basics.

No book can fully be representative of the Bujinkan. Even Hatsumi Sensei has said that a picture cannot capture the essence of Ninjutsu. Does this mean that books or DVDs etc should not be published. Of course not. These things are tools to learning, and like all tools each does a task. Granted the Stephen K Hayes books may not include in the pages all the secret techniques of Ninjutsu, but they do the job.

Let face it guys. In the world of Ashida Kim, Sid Campbell, James Loriega and all those other frauds, the Stephen K hayes books were a light in the darkness. And before anyone says "Well if it wasn't for the Stephen K Hayes books we wouldn't have all those bogus people practicing ninjutsu". Well the answer is probably neither would you.

And just to return to the beginning quote by Don Roley. This year in the UK An Shu was sure making a lot of reference to those low movements when he taught Kukishinden Ryu taijutsu and sword.

Gary Arthur
www.toshindo.co.uk

 

[Jonathan Randall]

One of my other hobbies (hopefully soon to be a business) is magic. Now when I first started I picked up a Marvins Magic Trick set and a book called "Mark Wilsons complete course in magic". These two items kept me entertained and learning for about a year. Now six years latter I am reading material by Ed Marlo about advanced card sleights, and I almost never pick up Mark Wilson course anymore, and certainy the Marvin Magic set was given away years ago. But that does not mean that they are bad things. They did what they intended to do and that was to set me out on the road to magic and teach me the basics.

Gary Arthur
www.toshindo.co.uk

I'm a neutral in this affair; however, I had to respond to tell you that, to an outside observer, you have made a darn fine post.

Certainly, Steven Hayes was a trailblazer. Without him, it is unlikely that Dr. Hatsumi's arts would now be practiced in the West - at least to the extent that they now are.

I think the Magic analogy is great. My father is a semi-pro magician and he's told me that many fine magicians got their start with Mark Wilson's course. I got my start as a landscape painter by watching Bob Ross on public television (the "Happy Painter"). Sure, I've outgrown him now, but I respect his contribution.

On the topic at hand, I think Haye's work is most representative of HIS art, with some (to what degree, I lack the expertise to tell) overlap into Bujinkan territory.

Welcome to MT! I hope you stay because I think you have a lot to contribute here.

 

[Don Roley]

Gary Arthur
www.toshindo.co.uk

Gary, why are you using more than one account on martialtalk and saying that you are someone else?

Up to now, we thought we were dealing with one of your students. But you just sighned your name while posting as Gina Jordan.

As for your points, a lot of flaws in them. Bujinkan was around before Hayes, not vice versa.

The "kihon happo" you say is taught in the books are not quite the same as they should be IMO. And there is no san shin, nor talk of things like unbalancing your opponent. They look fairly close to what you might see in Japan, but they miss the mark in terms of accuracy.

I better leave this be and let you explain why you signed up as Gina Jordan instead of using your real name.

 

[Tgace]

ooops!

 

[Gina Jordan]

Gary, why are you using more than one account on martialtalk and saying that you are someone else?

Fair Point. Gina is my partner and lives with me. We often view these posts together, because thats the exciting life we lead. I tried getting on this site after I changed my address, but for some reason the name Gary Arthur stopped me being able to register.

As for your points, a lot of flaws in them. Bujinkan was around before Hayes, not vice versa

Then maybe Don you can give us a date that the Bujinkan first began i.e the date Hatsumi sensei walked into the Dojo and pronounced what he was going to do was call his organisation the Bujinkan.

The "kihon happo" you say is taught in the books are not quite the same as they should be IMO.

Don you and I know that there is no set way of practicing text book Kihon Happo.

And there is no san shin, nor talk of things like unbalancing your opponent. They look fairly close to what you might see in Japan, but they miss the mark in terms of accuracy.

No, No San Shin. Maybe An Shu Hayes thought that it was misleading for a book of this kind or maybe the publishers took it out. Who knows.

Hatsumi's new book on the Ninja also doesnt include Sanshin, In fact as far as I can remeber the San Shin is'nt shown in any of his books. but you would'nt say his books were not representative of the Bujinkan. Even the first video Hatsumi brought out in the early 80s didn't include the the Sanshin, but again he would not be accused of not representing the Bujinkan. Theres only so much stuff you can get in a book.

We have to bear in mind that none of Stephen K Hayes books are called
"Bujinkan Martial Arts, a complete guide"

I have already stated before that no book can be representative of the Bujinkan, but what i think you are trying to do Don is to totally discredit Stephen K Hayes' book.

Credit where its due Don.

Oh and one final thing, as I intend to end this post here. If you can tell me what is or what is not in Stephen K Hayes books, obviously means that
1/ You have read them.
2/ That you still own them.

Now i'm not saying you liked them, but unless you bought them as a job lot, something must have inspired you to buy the next one, and the next one.

Anyway would be really interested when, that is the exact date the Bujinkan martial arts began. Maybe i'll start a new post.

Gary Arthur/Gina Jordan
www.toshindo.co.uk

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Today I think that form is concentrated on much more, but in the early days it was about "How can we make this stuff really work" or "Does it work".

LIIIIIE. I have met only one person within the Bujinkan openly claiming not wanting or needing to practice taijutsu as a functional combat system.

It starts of with an introduction and introduces Hatsumi Sensei, the nine schools, and the Bujinkan.

That introduction BTW, for those who haven't read it, is a textbook example of the completely false theory that the ninja were exclusively oppressed farmers.

The book then goes on to look at cultural and training values

To me it looks like an attempt to disavow the responsibility to a tradition one has chosen to be a part of.

The book then follows with some weapons drills and finally some firearms methods and roots of the spiritual traditions.

A spiritual tradition completely separate from the Bujinkan teachings, no less.

In my view nothing but a great book outlining what Hatsumi Sensei was probably teaching at the time.

And you base this assumption on what, praytell?

Even in the Ohara series the Godai is only really mentioned in the first two volumes. Volume three, four and five contain other material, that relates very much to Ninjutsu.

Not true. Number four was the first book I purchased and there's an entire chapter dedicated to it in there.

 

[Gina Jordan]

Oh and one final thing, as I intend to end this post here.

I am very tempted to respond, but as I quoted earlier above I feel I have said all i need to say. The post was about whether the SKH books are representative of the Bujinkan and I have already stated that I do not think any book is totally representative of the Bujinkan. How can any book represent 900 years of history covering the teachings of nine schools.

Now whether you like the books or not is down to you. One cannot take away the fact that the books by An Shu Hayes got a lot of people on the path to the Bujinkan Arts. Everything else is personal opinion.

Gary Arthur
www.toshindo.co.uk

 

[arnisador]

It's certainly true that Mr. Hayes' books generated a lot of interest in the art of ninjutsu. Sadly, they enabled frauds to claim they were teaching "ninjutsu" though I don't think it's fair to blame him for that. I was glad to get those books in the 80s and know a little bit about the system; I hadn't realized that there was such disagreement about whether or not the books provided a good representation of the actual system.

 

[Don Roley]

I hadn't realized that there was such disagreement about whether or not the books provided a good representation of the actual system.

Yes. Many people think that they are representative of the art. I once had someone ask my teacher what kind of elemental feeling they were supposed to have while doing the technique he had us doing. It was an amusing experience.

The way Hayes presented history, religion of the ninja and the five feelings are the most incorrect and yet the most prevelent myths out there today.

There is an article where Hayes gives his side of the story. I am sure that some people will point out that it sounds like an excuse and a justification rather than an honest recounting of the truth. Please, let us just put that aside for this conversation.

http://www.quest-l.com/collection/godai.php

It seems to me that he is confused about the origin of the Kihon Happo. I think Nimravus has pointed out that Oguri had a conversation with Takamatsu about the Kihon Happo, and Takamatsu died a decade before Hayes says the Kihon Happo was created. I also have never heard of it being created when Hayes said it was. I think that he is thinking more of the Tenchijin no Maki which fills the description better and I know was created basically because training had grown farther than Hatsumi had intended overseas. The Tenchijin is supposed to be a curriculum of techniques that are to be stressed in the Bujinkan, especially at the beggining level.

But there is a somewhat distrubing passage in the above article.

However, at the time of the establishment of the Bujinkan Dojo Kihon Happo, I had already been teaching the Go-dai no Kata for several years. Rather than change all the material that by then had appeared in several books and that made up my students’ curriculum, I simply adopted the “new” kihon happo into my training plan and incorporated the 8 techniques as part of my curriculum, which I still do to this day. Our instructors teach the kihon happo along with the go-dai.

Boil it down and you see that Hayes is saying that despite the fact that the Japanese wanted the art taught in a certain way, Hayes decided that he had too much invested in his own way of teaching to listen much. There was no Go-dai as he taught it being taught in Japan, and rather than drop it- he continued it.

So you can see that from a very early time, Hayes had decided to go his own way rather than try to follow the way things were done in Japan as closely as possible.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

Gary, why are you using more than one account on martialtalk and saying that you are someone else?

Up to now, we thought we were dealing with one of your students. But you just sighned your name while posting as Gina Jordan.

I didn't catch on to that. Now I'm more than a little upset that I responded to a poster who was not who I thought they were. I thought that I was dealing with a sincere student of Stephen Hayes, but now I don't know WHO or what I was resonding to. This is very disappointing.

 

[heretic888]

This might be somewhat off-topic, but...

One of the problems I have with Stephen Hayes' books happens to be his portrayal of Tantric Buddhism. In Japan, the principles espoused evolved into the rokudai but they have their origins in earlier formulations found within Tantric sects in India and Tibet.

My feeling is that Hayes makes use of a very "Americanized" and "pop-culture" interpretation of the Tantric chakra system --- simply describing them as different "feelings" or "moods" an individual can have across a horizontal spectrum of intention. This, of course, is not at all how the concepts are actually explained in their native systems.

Just my perspective, mind you.

Laterz.

 

[Fallen Ninja]

Plus, I used to study skh's stuff. BTW, its Gracie Jiu Jitsu

Understand, I was just pointing out that your regal comments from someone that is actually cross training their taijutsu with Gracie Jiu Jitsu is totally bogus!

Take a look at what is it that you want out of your martial arts and stick to one... unless you plan to make a "Gracie Ty jItsu"!

I'm not saying Gracie stuff doesn't work for them, but a dedicated practitioner should realize that something like "Kukan" is not exposed in Gracie stuff. And something like tying yourself up around an attacker and not caring out your positiong and balance is is not exposed in taijustu.

IMO I think that Shihan Haye's work (unless you were there) can only be speculation. No one can tell because they weren't there. Fortunatley this doesn't affect my training in anyway, but does give me a point of reference from where we all started. Most of us anyway.

FN

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Take a look at what is it that you want out of your martial arts and stick to one... unless you plan to make a "Gracie Ty jItsu"!

I've never actually practiced BJJ on a class basis, only occasionally seminar-wise. However, should the right opportunity arise I'm quite willing to do it again, for one reason and one reason only - it's fun as hell.

I'm not saying Gracie stuff doesn't work for them, but a dedicated practitioner should realize that something like "Kukan" is not exposed in Gracie stuff.

Well, not in the Bujinkan sense of the word, but similar principles do exist...extend your arms too much with someone mounting you and you're asking for an armbar, same thing with a kimura if you keep your elbows far out from your body when someone's side mounted on you.

 

[Fallen Ninja]

I've never actually practiced BJJ on a class basis, only occasionally seminar-wise. However, should the right opportunity arise I'm quite willing to do it again, for one reason and one reason only - it's fun as hell.



Well, not in the Bujinkan sense of the word, but similar principles do exist...extend your arms too much with someone mounting you and you're asking for an armbar, same thing with a kimura if you keep your elbows far out from your body when someone's side mounted on you.

Sounds to me like High School Wrestling! I personally think the moment you feel like cross training is going to help you... you completly missed the point of what your teacher is trying to teach you. Almost the same as if you were trying to learn Japanese and then go and learn a few words in Russian and think that you can use them speaking to a Japanese person. Doesn't mix and should never. Pick what you want and dedicate your life to it... if not... well I won't go there.

I think a lot of people practice taijutsu and don't study it. And thats the difference. They are trying to learn a few techniques so it doesn't bother them to go out and find a new set somewhere else. Too bad.

FN