SKH Books a representation of Bujinkan?

[Shogun]

I hope not!

Yeah, I hope not either.

but I hope that people will stop believing in that "one cannot learn Taijutsu unless they go to Japan" mentality. if someone asks a question, the people who have the privelage of going to or being in japan say...."go to japan"

In fact I would go so far as to say that in the early days the training was about trying to get things to work, i.e try out the techniques, whereas today it is more about learning the kata.

I think you went tooo far......So. you are saying Hatsumi is teaching "worse" than he did 20 years ago? and your saying Hatsumi wants you to "learn the kata" rather have the technique work? is this the direction SKH has gone? Not according to his home study program.....~clears throat~ HAVE YOU TRAINED IN THE BUJINKAN!?!

 

[Fallen Ninja]

HAVE YOU TRAINED IN THE BUJINKAN!?!

Have you?

I'm sorry to post this but anyone that studies "JujItsu" and "Bujinkan stuff", should really watch how he makes regal statements.

None of us were there, which makes none of us qualified to speculate what happened. Everything we have heard has been hearsay and maybe some propaganda by others.

I recently heard from some that came back from Japan... re: Hayes Shihan. They asked Soke what was the issue with Hayes. All Soke said was... "if you want to learn from Hayes' taijutsu, learn from Hayes. If you want to learn from my taijutsu, learn from me."

I think in the early days SKH books were a representation of the Bujinkan because he was soley a Bujinkan practitioner.

Now... maybe not so much in the eyes of many.

FN

 

[Don Roley]

Oh so it has changed. In the early days training was more intense because there were fewer people. The Bujinkan has changed because there are more people in it.

In terms of size, yes. Of course, Hayes can't duplicate that type of training because of size either. And the training I got last Thursday was with just two of us long term students and my teacher. In that situation, the training does indeed tend to be a bit more hands on and intense. I have done things here that I would hesitate to do in the UK and America due to the different mindset and legal situation. Here, if you get injured in training, the chances of it going to court is low. Unless the teacher held you down and beat you, there is little chance of you winning a case like that in Japan.

Again, the stuff that you are talking about, 'wind techniques', Mikkyo religious exercises, etc never existed in the training in Japan. They were added by Hayes to the stuff he does. I know this because I listen to my teachers here in Japan and can't find any reference to them doing "fire stances" and the like in any Japanese source.

So, how the heck can you try to present it like Hayes was doing things just like they were being done in Japan at the time?

 

[Don Roley]

but I hope that people will stop believing in that "one cannot learn Taijutsu unless they go to Japan" mentality. if someone asks a question, the people who have the privelage of going to or being in japan say...."go to japan"

I think we need to have links to Japan and to always seek out better instruction. If you are a green belt, it is silly to think you have to go to Japan to get instruction from someone better than you in the art. Even low level black belts can show up to train with people at the nose bleed level for training.

But for those that reach a high level, the only person that they may think knows more than they are the people in Japan. Hatsumi in Japan will always know more than any of his students. Also, we have a lot of bad information floating around the Bujinkan due to the meager level of understanding the early American teachers had and we need to correct them by going to the source. So, going to him is the course for the higher ranks. And the green belt I talked about should be going to a teacher that shows his willingness to train under a teacher who knows more than him. And so on. At some point, someone in the chain should be going to Japan to learn from someone better than they.

And not just for one day and a photo op.

 

[Cryozombie]

This thread is straying off topic, lets bring it back to Hayes books and thier representaion of the Bujinkan, before a mod comes along an smacks us in the head. (looks around for a mod... sees a mirror, and ducks)

Seriously.

 

[Senin]

There is much of value in that last post. However, one thing that I keep hearing over and over again are comments like:
"So this is a bit like saying "Is a 1984 copy of the New York Times representative of 2005?"
I think that is being a bit disengenous. One is a newspaper and news changes. How much does a martial art change? Hey lots of these arts have been around thousands of years. Let me pick up a judo book, or karate book, or aikido book. Have those arts really changed that much in twenty years. Nope. So what is all this---- it has changed so much in twenty years. Why?

And what about all that mental and spiritual stuff that Hayes wrote about? Is that ninjutsu or is that just Hayes?

 

[Tgace]

So..if you can look past the godai (sp?) and spiritual stuff in Hayses books, are the physical techniques valid?

 

[Cryozombie]

So..if you can look past the godai (sp?) and spiritual stuff in Hayses books, are the physical techniques valid?

My opinion? (and bear in mind I am a low ranking peon...)

Yes and No.

 

[Tgace]

thanks?

 

[Cryozombie]

thanks?

I think like many books and Videos... some things are presented wrong... or not completely enough to give a good feel for them.

The example from hayes books I would use is some of his Postures... they are... I wont say wrong... I would say... different... from how we learn them, and so are they effective? Maybe... dunno... So... from my Point of Veiw, yes and no. Ive seen things and gone, "No Way" and Ive seen things and gone "Hmmm"

 

[Senin]

So..if you can look past the godai (sp?) and spiritual stuff in Hayses books, are the physical techniques valid?

I know the Godai is Hayes' representation. But are those techniques he uses within the Godai Bujinkan? Does the spiritual stuff belong to the Bujinkan at all? Hayes represents this to be ninjutsu.

 

[Gina Jordan]

This post started out with the question are "SKH Books a representation of Bujinkan"

Now it did not say are "SKH Books a representation of Bujinkan in Japan"

The bujinkan is a world wide organisation and there is a broad spectrum of how the bujinkan arts are taught. Some instructors teach a very formal method of instruction and use forms like the sanshin, whereas others concentrate more on using pads and sparring to train their students.

Even if one takes some time to look at the various Bujinkan sites on the internet one will see a massive variation of teaching styles. There is even no standard grading sylabus, as although there is the Ten Chi Jin manual, there is still a lot of variation in the teaching.

For example the Van Donk site teaches Musha Dori at 6th Kyu, whereas the Pittsburg teaches it at 3rd Kyu, Yet the Lincoln (UK) dojo teaches it at 1st Kyu. In fact I can find very few Dojo that follow the Ten Chi Jin to the letter especially when it comes to the Jin level. In the copies of the Ten Chi Jin I have Jin is 3rd, 2nd, and 1st kyu level, yet very few are teaching the techniques of Setsu Yaku etc to kyu grades.

Now don't get me wrong, i'm not saying that there is anything wrong with this. Personally I think that its OK if its down to the individual instructor in how he wants to interpret the techniques of Hatsumi Sensei. In fact I believe thats what Hatsumi Sensei wants.

But with such a different style of teaching from Dojo to Dojo, how can any book be representative of the Bujinkan.

What I also find kind of strange is that if one looks at some of these Bujinkan Groups, you could apply the same logic that has been applied to the Stephen K Hayes martial arts.

In that one could say " This group is practicing the Bujinkan techniques different to and in a different format to how I was taught it therefore it must be another style that this instructor has invented"

Now Don keeps talking about the Godai, and its already been agreed that possibly this Godai concept of teaching physical techniques was something that An Shu Hayes used as a method to teach his students and is not part of the Bujinkan.

However I also came across the following sites, Bujinkan Athens at
www.bda-ninpo.com/html/index_eng.htm
teaching the Go Dai. In fact are not those pictures of Stephen K Hayes taking up those kamae. The same is too of course of Glen Morris' Ninpo Bujinkan site. In fact he mentions some strange things I can't find on any other site.

I will state again that the Bujinkan has changed. No Don i'm not just talking about Japan, as that was not the question, although it is my belief that this has changed too very much since 1975 and I appreciate that you have spoken to the Japanese who apparantly have told you different, but I guess I like yourself will choose who to believe.

Originally Posted by Shogun
but I hope that people will stop believing in that "one cannot learn Taijutsu unless they go to Japan" mentality. if someone asks a question, the people who have the privelage of going to or being in japan say...."go to japan"

I actually agree with what Shogun has written here. This quote is used as a cop out by those people who have gone to Japan, and probably learnt very little. There are some excellent instructors in the west, and I would suggest that in some instances more can be learnt from these instructors than flying off to Japan.

Gina Jordan

 

[Don Roley]

This post started out with the question are "SKH Books a representation of Bujinkan"

Now it did not say are "SKH Books a representation of Bujinkan in Japan"

It seems silly to me to say that when talking about the Bujinkan we should ignore the head of the art in Japan.

And in that respect, the books by Hayes are very different from what is going on and has always been going on in Japan.

And some dojos do have quite a bit of leeway in the way they teach things. And yes, some of them are still following the flawed lessons of the early Hayes stuff.

So that is why we should be looking to Hatsumi to correct these many mistakes and bring us back to what he wants.

After all, if we just do whatever we want, there is not really a need to put "Bujinkan" on our dojo. The Bujinkan is Hatsumi and we all just try to follow his lessons if we are good students.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

All Hayes books have one thing in common.
There's very little talk of breaking people's balance in them.

 

[Shogun]

Have you?

um, yeah. the amount? not much. seriously for about two years, and seminars for the last year.

and anyone who has:
"Ninjutsu, somewhere between Kyu & Shihan "

in theirs is clearly lost.

I have been told personally by certain Bujinkan Shihan, that some of the stuff SKH is teaching is invalid and has NO TIE to a source.

as for the thread: SKH Books a representation of Bujinkan?

my answer. No.

 

[Shogun]

I'm sorry to post this but anyone that studies "JujItsu" and "Bujinkan stuff", should really watch how he makes regal statements

Plus, I used to study skh's stuff. BTW, its Gracie Jiu Jitsu

 

[Senin]

I am slowly coming to realize that SKH does not teach Bujinkan ninjutsu. Since this is his own concoction maybe it is good that he changed the name to something else. And it seems that the answer to my books is..... for the most part, what is in Mr Hayes' book is not Bujinkan ninjutsu.

Too bad, I actually liked some of the stuff he wrote.

 

[Tgace]

So..at the time he wrote them (the books), the physical techniques were not what he was taught when he was in Japan?

 

[Don Roley]

So..at the time he wrote them (the books), the physical techniques were not what he was taught when he was in Japan?

Correct.

 

[Don Roley]

So..at the time he wrote them (the books), the physical techniques were not what he was taught when he was in Japan?

Let me try to give a more detailed explination.

You can see that the Kamae that he does looks like what you see Hatsumi and others do for the most part. The difference is that begginers in Japan are told to drop their hips more to build up strength and develop better habits. If you train with lowered hips, then when the fecal matter hits the fan, you will be able to move better even though you won't get into as deep a kamae as you were in training.

So, if you look at the pictures and think of them as what you would do if you were attacked, they are not bad. But if you are thinking of them as what a begginer should be doing while training in the dojo, they are wrong.

When you get good movement skills and hit old age, you no longer have to get that deep. But the teachers here will tell you to start out a lot deeper than you see Hatsumi moving now. I use this example because I recently translated a comment from a Japanese shihan to a class to the effect that if you want to move like Hatsumi does now, you had better start getting your hips lower while you are still young and inexperienced. There are other differences like this as well, but I think you get my point.

It is this subtle type of thing that marks the difference in the way Hayes presented the information and the way things are done in Japan. And as Gina has pointed out, because of the influence by Hayes, there are a lot of people in the Bujinkan moving with their hips higher up than the Japanese shihan here would advise at their level of training.