Size and Strength

[Jagermeister]

HAHAHA, it was pretty much!

I was kind of using it to drive home the point that size and strength is meaning-less unless contact is made. I am big guy but I don't rely on my strength or size. Although it is a bonus if I can use. That being said, unless that punch makes contact no matter whether the attacker is big or small, it is point-less wasted energy. I guess being powerful is pointless if it isn't effective. It is like, is noise sound if there is nothing to hear it?

Yes, I got the sarcasm. And yes, noise is sound, regardless of the audience. So how many irrelevant variables do you want to throw into the mix? I mean, what you are saying about the importance of accuracy is true. However, having said that, a small guy is just as likely to miss as a big guy if all things are equal, so that point is irrelevant. And regarding my previous post, it's all basic physics, for all you doubters out there. Really. I'm not making this stuff up.

A few thoughts:

1. Technique is definitely important. If a blow merely glances off the target, it's obviously not very effective in terms of damage. However, in this discussion there is no reason to assume that the hypothetical smaller person will have better technique than the hypothetical big person.

2. These measures of power etc. are not values placed on a body or a particular fighter, like some sort of potential energy measurement. It is a value placed on a movement, a punch in this instance.

3. The difference between force and power is the time component. This can be likened to the difference between a push and a punch. You're moving the same amount of mass (your opponent's head, for example) the same distance. So the force of each, which can be measured in newtons, is roughly the same. But if we choose to measure the power, the punch displaces, or moves, the mass in a shorter amount of time, thus effecting greater power, which can be measured in watts.

Okay, that's it. I won't bore you any longer with the science stuff.

 

[Jagermeister]

More food for thought (if you're not already full):

In boxing, who hits harder - the bantamweights or the heavyweights? Why? They both have good technique and speed, right? And what usually happens when a guy fights up a weight class or two?

Enough said.

 

[Elhan]

More food for thought (if you're not already full):

In boxing, who hits harder - the bantamweights or the heavyweights? Why? They both have good technique and speed, right? And what usually happens when a guy fights up a weight class or two?

Enough said.

Boxing is regulated by a huge amount of rules though. You can't just hit any body part you like. In a fight for survival, I doubt any rules will be of concern to the defendant, so techniques used will be a lot more varied.

 

[Elhan]

3. The difference between force and power is the time component. This can be likened to the difference between a push and a punch. You're moving the same amount of mass (your opponent's head, for example) the same distance. So the force of each, which can be measured in newtons, is roughly the same. But if we choose to measure the power, the punch displaces, or moves, the mass in a shorter amount of time, thus effecting greater power, which can be measured in watts.

So if a person punched or kicked with greater speed, wouldn't they still be able to generate greater power? Spin kicks are supposedly extremely devastating due to the amount of momentum they generate.

 

[Jagermeister]

Boxing is regulated by a huge amount of rules though. You can't just hit any body part you like. In a fight for survival, I doubt any rules will be of concern to the defendant, so techniques used will be a lot more varied.

Right, but we're talking about elite fighters, fighting in the same striking-based discipline. Pick another one then. Muay Thai? Same thing. It's the reason we have weight classes. You can't honestly say that it's the rules that dictate that the bigger fighters hit harder.

 

[FearlessFreep]

One thing that I think often gets lost in the 'speed' debate is that a heavy object has more momentum, which makes it harder to stop and change direction. A big guy can punch or kick just as fast as a little guy, what the big guy cannot do as easily is stop his body momentum once he has committed to a movement.

I saw this in sparring my instructor, who was considerable heavier than me. Occasionally (not often because he was also much more skilled then me) I could use his body weight against him, because he could kick very fast, but if I was there, it took him more energy to overcome his intertia to recover. My son, who was half my weight but closer to my skill level, was much better at using my mass against me by waiting for my attack and evading and counter striking while I fought my inertia to recover. I could kick as fast as him, and when I hit him, it was a lot more powerful then when he hit me, but he got pretty good at hitting me and making me not hit him

 

[Elhan]

Right, but we're talking about elite fighters, fighting in the same striking-based discipline. Pick another one then. Muay Thai? Same thing. It's the reason we have weight classes. You can't honestly say that it's the rules that dictate that the bigger fighters hit harder.

No, of course not, although I was pointing out that boxing (and all competitive fighting sports) generally are bound by strict rules, which limit what you can do. I don't think martial arts like the Krav Maga split students up by weight, although they don't host competitions and the like.

 

[FearlessFreep]

Pick another one then. Muay Thai? Same thing. It's the reason we have weight classes. You can't honestly say that it's the rules that dictate that the bigger fighters hit harder.

For what it's worth, my last sparring tournament match I sparred two other men. Weight and age classes were waved because there weren't that many of us. I beat them both. One was a few inches shorter than me but about my weight. One was a good head taller than me and much hevaier. In *both* cases I simply had more skill and experience. Tournaments are one thing but in class I routinely spar people both much larger and smaller than me, it's just a differnent set of challenges; against the big guys, no matter how fast they can throw a kick, you simply don't want to be there, and if you canmanage to not be there, you can do all right

 

[Elhan]

One thing that I think often gets lost in the 'speed' debate is that a heavy object has more momentum, which makes it harder to stop and change direction. A big guy can punch or kick just as fast as a little guy, what the big guy cannot do as easily is stop his body momentum once he has committed to a movement.

Yep, that's something you could take advantage of. Wing Chun does just that. It relies on you throwing the attacker off balance. The harder they hit, the harder they will fall, because you deflect the blow in a way that you avoid harm, and also pull them down. So yes, they may hit with great force, but you also pull them in a way with that force, often knocking the attacker to the ground or throwing them off guard.

 

[Jagermeister]

So if a person punched or kicked with greater speed, wouldn't they still be able to generate greater power? Spin kicks are supposedly extremely devastating due to the amount of momentum they generate.

1. How about this for an illustration. Throw a pebble as hard as you can at a house, maybe 50 miles/hour or so. Measure how far the house moves from the foundation. Next, drive a bulldozer into the same house, maybe 1/2 mile/hour. Measure this one as well. Compare, keeping in mind that the pebble was travelling 100 times faster. (Again, please note that speed does not equal power.)

2. Yes, spin kicks can have exceptional rotational power.

 

[Elhan]

1. How about this for an illustration. Throw a pebble as hard as you can at a house, maybe 50 miles/hour or so. Measure how far the house moves from the foundation. Next, drive a bulldozer into the same house, maybe 1/2 mile/hour. Measure this one as well. Compare, keeping in mind that the pebble was travelling 100 times faster. (Again, please note that speed does not equal power.)

Yet 100 times the speed would not compensate for the massive weight difference between the two. If you threw a rock that was say 20 times the weight of the pebble, wouldn't the pebble still strike with 5 times the power?

2. Yes, spin kicks can have exceptional rotational power.

Hmm damn shame they are dangerous to pull of though.

 

[FearlessFreep]

Throw a pebble as hard as you can at a house, maybe 50 miles/hour or so. Measure how far the house moves from the foundation. Next, drive a bulldozer into the same house, maybe 1/2 mile/hour. Measure this one as well. Compare, keeping in mind that the pebble was travelling 100 times faster. (Again, please note that speed does not equal power.)

Now stand in front of both and realize that while the bulldozer can move you, it doesn't really hurt you. You can move with the bulldozer so you don't absorb the energy. A 50mph pebble will leave a mark

But very few people are at those extremes either. I think for most it's really 'fast enough for my strength' or 'strong enough for my speed' and it's the balance of that tradeoff that determines success

 

[Jagermeister]

Yet 100 times the speed would not compensate for the massive weight difference between the two.

LOL. My point exactly. I'm just trying to show that speed, independent of other factors, doesn't mean anything. Power is the measure that is important when talking in terms of damage that can potentially be done by a strike.

If you threw a rock that was say 20 times the weight of the pebble, wouldn't the pebble still strike with 5 times the power?

No. If the pebble and the rock that's 20x heavier travel at the same speed, the rock will be 20 times more powerful. You're joking now.

And if I'm wrong, I'd be delighted to have someone explain to me how it is that bantamweights can actually hit as hard as heavyweights.

 

[Elhan]

LOL. My point exactly.

Yes, I got that, but you are talking about a weight difference way more than just 100 times.

No. If the pebble and the rock that's 20x heavier travel at the same speed, the rock will be 20 times more powerful. You're joking now.

Yes, if they travel at the same speed. What if the pebble travels faster though, say 40 times faster? 20 times is still a massive difference. Additionally, don't smaller surfaces exert more pressure? Say if a person kicked with a heeled shoe, wouldn't it cause more damage? I know this is slightly different, although if you could say focus all your strength into a single strike with your finger, wouldn't it be far more devastating than a punch or slap?

 

[Jagermeister]

Yes, if they travel at the same speed. What if the pebble travels faster though, say 40 times faster? 20 times is still a massive difference.

:-offtopic I don't know, I guess in this instance the pebble is more powerful. But these are totally arbitrary numbers that prove nothing as far as striking goes, and this is so off topic it's ridiculous - my fault, I guess. Honestly, though, we could do the calculations, but it would be easier for you to just check out a basic physics book from the library. It can explain this much better than I can.

Additionally, don't smaller surfaces exert more pressure? Say if a person kicked with a heeled shoe, wouldn't it cause more damage? I know this is slightly different, although if you could say focus all your strength into a single strike with your finger, wouldn't it be far more devastating than a punch or slap?

Yes, you're right about this, to an extent. I think it's kind of like hitting with the head of the hammer vs. the side of it. And again, this is way off topic, but the finger isn't strong enough to handle something like that. Instead of the target crumbling under the force of the impact, your finger will. I know there is Iron Palm stuff, but a finger can't safely deliver the same power as a fist. Ever seen anyone break bricks with a finger?

 

[Elhan]

:-offtopic I don't know, I guess in this instance the pebble is more powerful. But these are totally arbitrary numbers that prove nothing as far as striking goes, and this is so off topic it's ridiculous - my fault, I guess. Honestly, though, we could do the calculations, but it would be easier for you to just check out a basic physics book from the library. It can explain this much better than I can.

Then I shall pursue the matter no further here.

Yes, you're right about this, to an extent. I think it's kind of like hitting with the head of the hammer vs. the side of it. And again, this is way off topic, but the finger isn't strong enough to handle something like that. Instead of the target crumbling under the force of the impact, your finger will. I know there is Iron Palm stuff, but a finger can't safely deliver the same power as a fist. Ever seen anyone break bricks with a finger?

Well, the human body is no brick. lol And, indeed there are techniques to strengthen your limbs. Koto Ryu koppojutsu focuses highly on this (or at least traditional methods did). According to sources on it, seasoned practitioners could even make puncture marks on tree trunks (http://www.bujinkanbc.com/Ryuinfo.htm). Pressure points and nerve strikes are considered to be an extremely efficient, albeit difficult to master, technique.

 

[Shirt Ripper]

2. These measures of power etc. are not values placed on a body or a particular fighter, like some sort of potential energy measurement. It is a value placed on a movement, a punch in this instance.

The movement and body delivering them are connected, however, as it is the body that is moving.

 

[Jagermeister]

In the figurative sense, you are right. In the physical sense, you are wrong. They are not connected. A body is a tangible thing made up of matter. A movement is not an object that has mass and is not tangible. There is not a connection in terms of physics.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Not strength? What's your definition of power?
Muscular power is the end product of the strength and speed of a movement. P=FxD/T, Power equals force (strength) multiplied by Distance divided by Time (speed).



Not necessarily, but you've got the right idea. It is not a 1 to 1 relationship, however.

See also Definition of Power:http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geuqiYt...on.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/power

and of Strength: http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LaSu4Lt...yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/strength

While I agree that P=FxD/T is true. I look at it from Force equals Mass times Acceleration. or F=MA or FMA for short. Sorry for the last I had to slip that in.

So, given two different opponents their force at impact will be determined by the rate of change of the motion or the acceleration or more specifically the deceleration trauma to the target, combined with the mass of the object striking the target.

Most people who use strength use their arm or upper body/Chect muscle for strength. So for this person, it would be the mass of their arm multipled by the acceleration rate of the strike.

While a person with good technique will have their whole body into the strike with proper hip usage and or alignment. Their force of impact would be the mass of their body times the acceleration rate. This is how smaller people can practice martial arts and be effective.

Now many people get grabbed, and then even if they have strength they try to wrestle the other person and or release or a technique that goes through a body part. Hence your technique or strength is going through the bones of a person. This is hard to fight or over come. Same as if you get on the ground and the big guy lays on you, you have to wiggle and move to breath.

Yet the small person (actually anyone) can execute a release through the thumb and fingers or use their hip combined with their ground technqiue and press the person enough to move and to counter.

So, between to untrained people it comes down to the acceleration, speed as some say, and the mass of the first versus the other opponent. An infinite number of combinations based upon possibilites.

Now if you limit the scope by defining the size (mass) of the person, the acceleration rate and have equal skill levels, one is able to calculate the expected outcome assuming both move at the same time.

F(1)=M(1)*A(1) versus F(2)=M(2)*A(2)

Where F = Force; M = Mass; A = Acceleration

This is where skill level variation comes in to make the formula more complex.

Where S = Skill Level

F(1)={[S(1)*M(1)]*A(1)} versus F(2)={[S(2)*M(2)]*A(2)}

As one can see depending upon the variables this could also be an infinite number of solutions for comparison.

Which brings up as some have mentioned, timing. If you move first and get a good shot, you may not need a second or may be able to get a second shot.

Where R = Reaction

R1(1) = T(1)*F(1) versus R(2) = T(2)*F(2)

This is reaction only. This assumes the same pain tolerance as mentioned by others as well.

Where P = Pain Tolerance

R1(1) = T(1)*F(1)*P(1) versus R(2) = T(2)*F(2)*P(2)

Now the issue for the equation comes down to still needing a fudge factor for random action or favorite techniques, which may or may not be known and prepared for. This fudge factor also includes, what you ate, drank, how much you slept, and everything else you can think of.

Where K = Fudge Factor

R(1) = K(1)*T(1)*F(1)*P(1) versus R(2) = K(2)*T(2)*F(2)*P(2)

So, the Size of the person does factor into the equation, yet there are other factors that weigh in as well.

So if we simplify again, by stating same skill level and same pain tolerance, and same timing you are back to the Force.

******************************************************

I hope I do not get jumped for the story problem in mathematics.

 

[Jagermeister]

Now we're inventing our own equations? I give up.