Size and Strength

[Adept]

why assume that greater strength is still an advantage? Furthermore, if the human body possesses certain in-built weak spots, such as the throat, eyes, nerves etc., and striking them requires extreme skill as opposed to strength, often yielding impressive results, again why would it matter?

Because if the practitioners are of equal or similar skill, one can assume that they will have a hard time landing these uber-chi strikes on one anothers vital spots. But the bigger guy is going to be a touch faster, his blows will land that much harder, and he has a bit more natural armour.

Ones such as the Krav Maga state that it hardly matters at all how big or strong you are, because its techniques are so brutal that your opponent won't even be able to breathe once you're down with them. I am not sure about Aikido, but the Krav Maga is praised for its efficiency.

A lot of people claim their art is the be-all and end-all. The bottom line is that it doesn't hurt to be bigger and stronger than your opponent, and it sure does help.

As such, it would be odd, and even an insult to our mental power, that by now a powerful non-strength based martial art has not developed.

So far, no one has been able to really manifest chi in any meaningful way. Especially not in conflict situations. Based on observable data, chi will not make you faster or stronger. Bigger muscles will.

 

[arnisador]

As a rule, bigger is better in a fight. Yes, there are exceptions, and yes, skill matters, but all things being equal, bigger and stronger will beat shorter and weaker (unless it's a gunfight, where the bigger person is a bigger target!).

 

[mrhnau]

As a rule, bigger is better in a fight. Yes, there are exceptions, and yes, skill matters, but all things being equal, bigger and stronger will beat shorter and weaker (unless it's a gunfight, where the bigger person is a bigger target!).

Do you think that in general a bigger person can take a bigger punch? Granted, it would not always be the case, but do you think that as a general rule it would be true? If so, don't you think that might have an effect in a fight?

 

[arnisador]

As a rule, I would say yes, though pain tolerance really is a separate issue. It wouldn't have much effect on a groin shot, but if your punch lands on a pectoral muscle (due to bad luck, let's say), a bigger person will be less affected than a smaller one...including that a bigger person will be less 'rocked' while a smaller one will have his or her balance more affected.

Personally, I think aggressiveness and the will to win makes more difference than just about anything...including training, in many cases.

 

[Shirt Ripper]

I think that's one of the beauties of martial arts. Power is generated from speed, timing, and technique, not size and strength.

Not strength? What's your definition of power?
Muscular power is the end product of the strength and speed of a movement. P=FxD/T, Power equals force (strength) multiplied by Distance divided by Time (speed).

Bigger muscles will.

Not necessarily, but you've got the right idea. It is not a 1 to 1 relationship, however.

 

[Jagermeister]

Good point, Shirt Ripper. In terms of striking, power is the only measure that means anything. Not force, work, strength, or speed. Power = work / time. It's displacing the most mass the farthest distance in the shortest amount of time. That is what makes a strike a good one.

To answer the original question, in my opinion, bigger is better, unless speed is too significantly compromised, which would result in an increase in the time component from the above power equation, thereby decreasing power.

Bigger means longer reach, too, which can be helpful.

 

[jdinca]

Do you think that in general a bigger person can take a bigger punch? Granted, it would not always be the case, but do you think that as a general rule it would be true? If so, don't you think that might have an effect in a fight?

In general, yes. There's more mass to absorb and diffuse the energy from the impact. As usual, there are always exceptions...

 

[Bigshadow]

Good point, Shirt Ripper. In terms of striking, power is the only measure that means anything. Not force, work, strength, or speed. Power = work / time. It's displacing the most mass the farthest distance in the shortest amount of time. That is what makes a strike a good one.

So... let me see if I have this right... If the opponent affects either the time or the distance, this changes the power of the attacker?

If the above is true, then how much size and strength does it take to affect the time or distance?

 

[Kenpodoc]

Of course size and strength matter, fortunately they aren't the only things that matter.

Jeff

 

[jdinca]

Not strength? What's your definition of power?
Muscular power is the end product of the strength and speed of a movement. P=FxD/T, Power equals force (strength) multiplied by Distance divided by Time (speed).

You're right, I should have said not AS important. And, I'm talking about the energy released at impact. Yes, strength adds to power but speed, timing and technique are more important to the typical martial artist. Otherwise, how would you explain the ability of a smaller person to do more damage than someone bigger and stronger, who isn't as fast or doesn't have proper technique?

If a stronger person is tense when they throw the punch, there will be a loss of speed and a resultant loss of power at impact. Granted, the greater mass behind the strike can offset that to a point, but a smaller, weaker person who has timing and and stays relaxed until just before impact will have greater speed with the result being more power at impact. Better technique, more speed. It's a matter of which part of your equation is emphasized to produce the end result. For most martial artists, it's usually the speed quotient that produces the best results.

Example, if two of the same vehicles are run into a wall at different speeds, which one will do the most damage? The faster one because of the greater amount of potential energy released at impact. It wasn't how powerful (hp and torque) the vehicle was, it was the speed it was traveling at. Take two vehicles of different size and run them into the wall at the same speed. The larger vehicle will do more damage because of the greater mass and again, the larger amount of potential energy that is released at impact. Take the smaller car and increase its speed and at some point, it will do the same or a greater amount of damage because speed offset the lack of mass and balanced the equation, even though it may not have been as powerful as the bigger vehicle.

Now equate that to throwing a punch. A bigger(stronger) and smaller(weaker) person can have the same amount of energy at impact, provided the smaller person develops more speed than the bigger stronger one. You're right about strength if timing and technique are used to create more speed from the increased strength. Otherwise, all the stronger person is doing is adding mass to the equation as a result of bigger muscles. As a result, I feel I have to stand by my comment that speed and technique/timing are more important than strength.

I've been hit by big, strong guys who were slow and didn't have good technique. I've been hit by women much smaller than myself who had superb technique and great speed. I'd rather be hit by the big guy.

 

[Lisa]

:lurk:

Excellent thread. Puts new perspective on training and what to focus on. What I am reading is that it is a whole package kind of thing and to use what you have and to work on what you don't. The variables play such an important role. Never under estimate your opponent because of their size. Ego has a factor in whether size and strength will win over skill too.

My favorite example of this is my daughter sparring with a relative newbie. He took one look at her and thought she wasn't a threat. She quickly put him in her guard and guillotined (sp?) him within seconds of him trying to tackle her. Could she continue to do this now that he has some skill of his own, no, of course not. But my point is never to underestimate your opponent due to their size, some small packages can be deadly, especially if you are not aware of what they can do.

 

[Kenpodoc]

The other thing that has not been addressed is the ability of larger bodies to absorb larger amounts of force. Training and skill can compensate for lack of size but larger bodies can deal and absorb larger amounts of energy. That said, i've seen some skilled small women and men put the hurt on some big cocky guys and always enjoy the show.

Jeff

 

[Elhan]

The other thing that has not been addressed is the ability of larger bodies to absorb larger amounts of force. Training and skill can compensate for lack of size but larger bodies can deal and absorb larger amounts of energy. That said, i've seen some skilled small women and men put the hurt on some big cocky guys and always enjoy the show.

Jeff

Flexible bodies also absorb energy better though, since they have greater elasticity. Women do tend to be more flexible and have better balance, so they can absorb energy better. And if a man trains in flexibility, he could also become quite lithe. Now I won't dispute that a larger body could do more damage (depending on speed and technique as well), yet absorption, well it depends.

 

[Elhan]

Now equate that to throwing a punch. A bigger(stronger) and smaller(weaker) person can have the same amount of energy at impact, provided the smaller person develops more speed than the bigger stronger one. You're right about strength if timing and technique are used to create more speed from the increased strength. Otherwise, all the stronger person is doing is adding mass to the equation as a result of bigger muscles. As a result, I feel I have to stand by my comment that speed and technique/timing are more important than strength.

I will agree on that. Timing, speed, technique, focus and confidence are all supremely important, to the point that they could even displace strength. That said, even if one does have a strength advantage, you could always use trickery (distractive strikes and so on) to get them off guard, in sensitive positions, so subterfuge could well be a factor.

 

[Shirt Ripper]

So... let me see if I have this right... If the opponent affects either the time or the distance, this changes the power of the attacker?

If the above is true, then how much size and strength does it take to affect the time or distance?

I think you are getting a bit too abstract for this specific idea. Your punch and it's mass moved at a specific speep (D/T) with a certain amount of force with be so powerful. Your opponents reactions to your movement prior to recieving the blow will not effect those (beyond perhaps requiring greater length of movements to contact) components of his/her movements.

or were you just sassing?:idunno:

 

[Elhan]

Because if the practitioners are of equal or similar skill, one can assume that they will have a hard time landing these uber-chi strikes on one anothers vital spots. But the bigger guy is going to be a touch faster, his blows will land that much harder, and he has a bit more natural armour.

Some vital spots are not particularly hard to reach. The body is full of them. Also, bigger means there's more to hit. A small person can duck and weave more. Furthermore, flexible bodies absorb damage quite well, so size is not the only factor when it comes to endurance.

A lot of people claim their art is the be-all and end-all. The bottom line is that it doesn't hurt to be bigger and stronger than your opponent, and it sure does help.

I won't disagree here. Krav Maga is internationally endorsed by many secret agencies and militaries though, so there must be something to it. Strength could help, yet to think that it is of primary importance is to diminish the value of any other factors.

So far, no one has been able to really manifest chi in any meaningful way. Especially not in conflict situations. Based on observable data, chi will not make you faster or stronger. Bigger muscles will.

It depends on what you mean. When I refer to chi, I usually mean focus of mind.

 

[Kenpodoc]

Flexible bodies also absorb energy better though, since they have greater elasticity. Women do tend to be more flexible and have better balance, so they can absorb energy better. And if a man trains in flexibility, he could also become quite lithe. Now I won't dispute that a larger body could do more damage (depending on speed and technique as well), yet absorption, well it depends.

I won't deny the benefits of flexibility and yielding to strikes but very little works like a 12 inch padding of adipose tissue to protect underlying vital organs.

Jeff

 

[Bigshadow]

or were you just sassing?:idunno:

HAHAHA, it was pretty much!

I was kind of using it to drive home the point that size and strength is meaning-less unless contact is made. I am big guy but I don't rely on my strength or size. Although it is a bonus if I can use. That being said, unless that punch makes contact no matter whether the attacker is big or small, it is point-less wasted energy. I guess being powerful is pointless if it isn't effective. It is like, is noise sound if there is nothing to hear it?

Size and strength doesn't matter unless contact is made (and to further complicate things contact can be shredded "Shock Absorbtion", so even contact can be diffused).

All though, I have a funny little retort to the old phrase "the bigger they are the harder they fall". My 6' 4" father used to say "the smaller they are, the further they fly!" :roflmao:

 

[Shirt Ripper]

HAHAHA, it was pretty much!

I was kind of using it to drive home the point that size and strength is meaning-less unless contact is made.

Figured it was something like that. Excellent point.

All though, I have a funny little retort to the old phrase "the bigger they are the harder they fall". My 6' 4" father used to say "the smaller they are, the further they fly!" :roflmao:

I like it. And way to use the word "retort."

 

[Elhan]

I won't deny the benefits of flexibility and yielding to strikes but very little works like a 12 inch padding of adipose tissue to protect underlying vital organs.

Jeff

Aren't there martial arts that focus on directly striking at muscles?