Sikhs killed in shooting at Temple in Wisconson

[ballen0351]

well, anybody who seeks to strike terror and fear is, no?
or who seek to interfere with legal activities by using violent and illegal methods and intimidation.

Shooting up a place is certainly a step up from sending hate mail...

(BTW, I feel the same way about PETA and their chronies, like ALF and ELF..)

And shooting is a crime sending mail may or may not be depending on what was sent once they cross the line do what you can to lock them up but not before.

 

[jks9199]

Nice try, but white supremacists'--i.e., Wade Page--very beliefs include inevitable violence. I'm unclear as to why this isn't evident to you.

Actually, they don't. The White Supremacist movement is pretty big, and not all of it espouses violence to bring about change. A lot of the movement certainly does believe in an inevitable "racial holy war", and prepares for it -- but they aren't necessarily planning to go out and cause it; they simply believe that it will happen. Then you've got things like SHARPs -- Skin Heads Against Racial Prejudice. They're simply indiscriminately violent; they don't care about your race or ethnicity... they'll just fight!

 

[WC_lun]

Ballen is right, you cannot arrest someone because you find thier beliefs distasteful. I think these white supremecist bigots are ignorant morons who fear anything different than they are. However, thier belief isn't illegal, no more than the last sentence in this post. Niether is grounds for arrest. Now the second an action is taken that steps on someone else's rights then I got no problem locking them up. You can call an idiot an idiot, but you can't lock them up just for being an idiot.

 

[Wo Fat]

Actually, they don't. The White Supremacist movement is pretty big, and not all of it espouses violence to bring about change. A lot of the movement certainly does believe in an inevitable "racial holy war", and prepares for it -- but they aren't necessarily planning to go out and cause it; they simply believe that it will happen. Then you've got things like SHARPs -- Skin Heads Against Racial Prejudice. They're simply indiscriminately violent; they don't care about your race or ethnicity... they'll just fight!

Actually they do. White supremacy--certainly in this country--was not and certainly could not be achieved without violence. White supremacy has always been and will always be a cause to be advanced; not some romantic notion or philosophical musing.

White supremacy today exists on a continuum. It's tenets are the same today as they were when Nathan Bedford Forest conceived of the Klan; or when Natives were not fit to inhabit their own land or speak their own language; or any number of violent acts were carried out in support of that way of life over the past few centuries.

 

[Wo Fat]

Ballen is right, you cannot arrest someone because you find thier beliefs distasteful. I think these white supremecist bigots are ignorant morons who fear anything different than they are. However, thier belief isn't illegal, no more than the last sentence in this post. Niether is grounds for arrest. Now the second an action is taken that steps on someone else's rights then I got no problem locking them up. You can call an idiot an idiot, but you can't lock them up just for being an idiot.

So if "Mohammed" believes in terrorist attacks toward the U.S., and it's known that he does, but he hasn't actually committed a terrorist act then law enforcement should do what?

 

[elder999]

So if "Mohammed" believes in terrorist attacks toward the U.S., and it's known that he does, but he hasn't actually committed a terrorist act then law enforcement should do what?

What they do: keep him under surveillance. Short of making threats, this is still the United States, and-while we may not like what people think or say, or even may feel threatened by it, people still have a right to think and say what they want to.

 

[Wo Fat]

What they do: keep him under surveillance. Short of making threats, this is still the United States, and-while we may not like what people think or say, or even may feel threatened by it, people still have a right to think and say what they want to.

Now we're getting somewhere. Yes, we monitor people who are potential terrorists. We put them on no-fly lists. We watch their money. We watch their movements. And before they get a chance to attack, we often foil their plot.

So why aren't we doing that--to the same degree we would with Mohammed--with potential terrorists who are white (that's an open question, not necessarily directed to you elder999)?

 

[elder999]

Now we're getting somewhere. Yes, we monitor people who are potential terrorists. We put them on no-fly lists. We watch their money. We watch their movements. And before they get a chance to attack, we often foil their plot.

So why aren't we doing that--to the same degree we would with Mohammed--with potential terrorists who are white (that's an open question, not necessarily directed to you elder999)?

How do you know that we don't? We have in the past. On several ocassions, both the FBI and the BATF have penetrated white supremacist groups with informers and undercover agents, and those penetrations led to arrests and convictions.

 

[ballen0351]

How do you know that we don't? We have in the past. On several ocassions, both the FBI and the BATF have penetrated white supremacist groups with informers and undercover agents, and those penetrations led to arrests and convictions.

Your correct we do keep watch on these groups as much as we do any other groups I've been to several classes on white gangs and sovereign citizens and militia groups. They are not reported on as much because the news can't make a race issue out of it. Its better news to report how a Muslim man was searched at an airport then.it is 20 white power gang members were arrested for selling meth and stockpile weapons charges.

 

[blindsage]

And to this sillyness...



Considering how the people of muslim nations behaved when 9/11 happened, and when the cartoons of Mohammed were published, or when theo van goh made his movie about the abuse of muslim women, I would say that the response of your average American was exemplary. No riots or mass protests against muslims occurred after any of those events, considering 3000 citizens and them more at fort hood were killed. I am proud that the people of my country did not overreact, as they do overseas to the slightest provocation, and that we have not done what others have done under lesser circumstances.

Yup, we reacted real well. We invaded a country that had absolutely nothing whatesoever to do with 9/11, and the majority supported it. Nope no violent reaction there. We routinely bomb and kill people that are not directly involved in any attacks on Americans, civilian or otherwise and the majority of Americans tacitly support it. Nope, no violent reaction there. Yeah, when you have the most powerful military in the history of the planet to do your violence for you then you don't feel a need to express it in your neighborhood or to lash out in the streets. Don't worry, your taxes pay for your violence, you can just keep going to Starbucks and someone will kill somebody for you.

 

[billc]

In World War 2 the nation of Japan bombed our naval base at Pearl Harbor, Hawaii. Germany then declared war on the United States and in reaction...we invaded Africa. I know, memory is a short range thing for a lot of people, and 9/11 was a long time ago...a whole 11 years ago, but having low hanging fruit like saddam, with everyone believing he had weapons of mass destruction, and now everyone concerned about those same weapons and the fall of the Syrian government, and his continued violations of the ceasefire, and his strategic position next to Iran, a country that whole heartedly supports terrorism and the forces killing American soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq and other places around the world, yeah, he needed to be dealt with before people once again forgot the dangers of ignoring threats that led up to 9/11. It's okay now, everyone can go back to sleep, nothing to worry about anymore, were all safe from bad guys...

 

[Wo Fat]

How do you know that we don't? We have in the past. On several ocassions, both the FBI and the BATF have penetrated white supremacist groups with informers and undercover agents, and those penetrations led to arrests and convictions.

True ... to an extent. White supremacist groups have been infiltrated successfully over the past couple of decades. Ballen is also right about cops popping these guys on meth and possession charges. But here's my concern:

We still are not willing to see the aryan in the same light as the Jihadist. Right now, the most wanted terrorists--according to the FBI's Terrorist Screening Center--are all men with Arab/Muslim names. The only "domestic" terrorists that seem to be worthy of placing on that list, are people who committed crimes twenty to thirty years ago, and mainly involving arson and property destruction. Where are the aryans on these lists? To be more specific, was Wade Page's name on that list? If not, should it have been?

Buford Furrow--the aryan nation member who shot up a Los Angeles Jewish Community Center as well as shooting and killing a Filipino American postal employee--was an engineer employed by Northrop Grumman to work on the B-2 stealth bomber. Now tell me honestly: in a post 9/11 day, if a Abdullah Ahmed Abdullah was also employed as an engineer working on fighter planes at Northrop or Lockheed, would their background checks have been the same? Would Furrow have been monitored the same as Abdullah?

There will be exponentially more Pages and Furrows committing their terrorist killings if we don't start seeing them in the same light as the jihadists.

 

[granfire]

In World War 2 the nation of Japan bombed our naval base at Pearl Harbor, Hawaii. Germany then declared war on the United States and in reaction...we invaded Africa. I know, memory is a short range thing for a lot of people, and 9/11 was a long time ago...a whole 11 years ago, but having low hanging fruit like saddam, with everyone believing he had weapons of mass destruction, and now everyone concerned about those same weapons and the fall of the Syrian government, and his continued violations of the ceasefire, and his strategic position next to Iran, a country that whole heartedly supports terrorism and the forces killing American soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq and other places around the world, yeah, he needed to be dealt with before people once again forgot the dangers of ignoring threats that led up to 9/11. It's okay now, everyone can go back to sleep, nothing to worry about anymore, were all safe from bad guys...

Why don't you throw in the crusades for good measure?

WWII had nothing to do with terrorism, unless you count dropping atomic bombs on civilians and then not telling them what happened....

 

[granfire]

True ... to an extent. White supremacist groups have been infiltrated successfully over the past couple of decades. Ballen is also right about cops popping these guys on meth and possession charges. But here's my concern:

We still are not willing to see the aryan in the same light as the Jihadist. Right now, the most wanted terrorists--according to the FBI's Terrorist Screening Center--are all men with Arab/Muslim names. The only "domestic" terrorists that seem to be worthy of placing on that list, are people who committed crimes twenty to thirty years ago, and mainly involving arson and property destruction. Where are the aryans on these lists? To be more specific, was Wade Page's name on that list? If not, should it have been?

Buford Furrow--the aryan nation member who shot up a Los Angeles Jewish Community Center as well as shooting and killing a Filipino American postal employee--was an engineer employed by Northrop Grumman to work on the B-2 stealth bomber. Now tell me honestly: in a post 9/11 day, if a Abdullah Ahmed Abdullah was also employed as an engineer working on fighter planes at Northrop or Lockheed, would their background checks have been the same? Would Furrow have been monitored the same as Abdullah?

There will be exponentially more Pages and Furrows committing their terrorist killings if we don't start seeing them in the same light as the jihadists.

well, the week of Bin Laden's death, No. 3 was actually an ALF guy...white as the newly fallen snow...forgot the name....but I found it interesting. So yeah, domestic terrorism is alive and well (and it is really a joke putting people on the 10 most wanted list you won't ever encounter shopping at walmart...)

 

[Wo Fat]

well, the week of Bin Laden's death, No. 3 was actually an ALF guy...white as the newly fallen snow...forgot the name....but I found it interesting. So yeah, domestic terrorism is alive and well (and it is really a joke putting people on the 10 most wanted list you won't ever encounter shopping at walmart...)

Daniel San Diego was his name. He bombed a part of the Chiron (now Novartis) headquarters in the SF Bay Area. One of those environmental/animal terrorists.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Daniel San Diego was his name. He bombed a part of the Chiron (now Novartis) headquarters in the SF Bay Area. One of those environmental/animal terrorists.

Let's not forget the Earth First!ers who committed arson in various places and have spiked trees, resulting in the deaths of lumbermen. I'd love to catch me one of those scum-sucking bastiches.

 

[Wo Fat]

Let's not forget the Earth First!ers who committed arson in various places and have spiked trees, resulting in the deaths of lumbermen. I'd love to catch me one of those scum-sucking bastiches.

Not sure if you ever had a chance to see Two Elk Lodge and Restaurant. A thing of beauty on Vail Mountain in Colorado. Those Earth First terrorist/bast*rds burned it to the ground.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Not sure if you ever had a chance to see Two Elk Lodge and Restaurant. A thing of beauty on Vail Mountain in Colorado. Those Earth First terrorist/bast*rds burned it to the ground.

No, I did not. However, I remember when I first boycotted a business. Whole Earth Foods in NC was selling Earth First!'s magazine at their checkout lanes. I spoke to the manager and asked if she knew it was run by an identified eco-terrorist organization. She said that violence in defense of the planet was no crime. OK, then. No more Whole Foods for me. They make their choices, I make mine.

 

[ballen0351]

So your upset there are no white people on the FBI most wanted list? You do understand that list means nothing its basically for the media and has.nothing to do with actual law enforcement. There are entire divisions in the FBI and US Marshalls devoted to domestic terrorist. Like o said before sovereign citizens are near the top of the list right now. Again its all about the news Americans don't care about the white power groups because its not as good of a news story as a Muslim terrorist. That does not mean law enforcement isn't working on it its just not reported on as much.

 

[Wo Fat]

So your upset there are no white people on the FBI most wanted list? You do understand that list means nothing its basically for the media and has.nothing to do with actual law enforcement. There are entire divisions in the FBI and US Marshalls devoted to domestic terrorist. Like o said before sovereign citizens are near the top of the list right now. Again its all about the news Americans don't care about the white power groups because its not as good of a news story as a Muslim terrorist. That does not mean law enforcement isn't working on it its just not reported on as much.

No. But I could see how the Sikh's of Wisconsin would be upset because the aryan terrorist (and those who are sure to follow) who killed and terrorized their loved ones wasn't on such a list. And they would be upset exactly for the reasons you stated. That our media are so hyperfocused on the Middle Eastern jihadist, that they have all but ignored the RaHoWa jihadist.

I agree with you in that respect. I do, however, question how much of a priority our government has placed on domestic aryan terrorists, in comparison to domestic or foreign jihadists.