Sikhs killed in shooting at Temple in Wisconson

[Steve]

This morning, last I heard, they hadn't determined motive. Are you guys sure it was as clear cut as this guy thought they were muslim?

 

[billc]

That is what I am wondering, especially with his job in the military. Not saying it isn't possible he targeted them because he thought they were muslims, but his military experience might argue against it, though not strongly, since he could have just been handling supply requests in the Psy ops job...

 

[Bill Mattocks]

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...scene-civil-rights-watchdog-article-1.1129814

 

[Tez3]

This morning, last I heard, they hadn't determined motive. Are you guys sure it was as clear cut as this guy thought they were muslim?

I don't think it's known or clear cut in this case however what is true is that the Sikhs have been fearing attacks from people mistaking them for Moslems.

 

[Wo Fat]

So what if the guy was "mistaken". So what if he confused Sikhs for Muslims. He was a white supremacist intent on killing. Whether he was confused as to which non-white people to kill is irrelevant.

 

[granfire]

So what if the guy was "mistaken". So what if he confused Sikhs for Muslims. He was a white supremacist intent on killing. Whether he was confused as to which non-white people to kill is irrelevant.

well, it's not relevant for the victims, for sure, but it really points out that if you are that ignorant or stupid, you should not play vigilante.

but seriously, we have in the last decade cultivated a climate of non acceptance toward Islam and in extension of that toward Middle Eastern looking people.

And considering the sheer numbers of people who do not know that Canada shares a border with the US or that New Mexico is not a separate country, let alone where all the countries are that house those evil Muslims....

maybe having an IQ test administered when buying a gun would help...you have to be at least as smart as Ernest T. Bass...

 

[billc]

What climate of non acceptance of Americans who practice Islam?

 

[Wo Fat]

What climate of non acceptance of Americans who practice Islam?

Well it goes back decades, but if one tends to ignore it then it doesn't matter. Suffice it to say that, within the last several months, former presidential candidate Herman Cain is on record as saying he would not hire a Muslim into his administration. A man who received sizeable support from a major political party is on record with that kind of anti-Muslim bigotry. What more does one need to see that there is a climate of non-acceptance of Muslim Americans?

 

[Sukerkin]

Here is the BBC's report on this - I don't think it adds any pertinent details that BillM's link didn't cover already to be honest:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-19151869

 

[WC_lun]

What climate of non acceptance of Americans who practice Islam?

Just off the top of my head without looking up anything, A Sihk killed because it was thought he was Muslim, flack about Muslim opening a mosque in NYC, Muslims in TN(?) having to go through court system to worship in a mosque already built and approved by the city they built in, a presidential canidate saying Muslims need not apply to his administration, profiling Middle Eastern people because they might be Muslim, Obama called Muslim as a negative attack, and now more Sihks killed by a white supremecist thought they were Muslim. Okay the last one is not proved, but seriously, you can honestly say there isn'y a current climate against Muslims in this country?

 

[granfire]

Just off the top of my head without looking up anything, A Sihk killed because it was thought he was Muslim, flack about Muslim opening a mosque in NYC, Muslims in TN(?) having to go through court system to worship in a mosque already built and approved by the city they built in, a presidential canidate saying Muslims need not apply to his administration, profiling Middle Eastern people because they might be Muslim, Obama called Muslim as a negative attack, and now more Sihks killed by a white supremecist thought they were Muslim. Okay the last one is not proved, but seriously, you can honestly say there isn'y a current climate against Muslims in this country?

Well, it's billie...not to mention that he has himself linked to many anti Islam articles in the past couple of years....maybe he does not actually read what he links when he does not see it...

But yeah, the almost violent opposition to the 'Ground Zero Mosque' In NYC ('they can see the crater' which is stupid because there are two blocks of 13 and 14 story buildings in the way) and the nasty opposition to the Mosque planned in Murfreesboro, Tn....and that is only the most visible one, out of many.

 

[billc]

One Sikh killed over 12 years ago, the candidate was forced to back track from that statement, the mosque, which everyone agreed had a right to be built but was pointed out what bad taste that would have been, and it is still going forward, isn't it, just trying to get someone to pay for it, obama who used his muslim background as a plus for having the U.S. more "respected" in the world and was elected president even with his muslim backgroune ( no I don't think he himself is a muslim, I think he isn't religious at all ) and if this guy did target these Sikhs because he thought they were muslims, once again, close to 13 years after 19 muslims murdered over 3000 U.S. and foriegn citizens, and after a "soldier of Jihad," major Hassan murdered close to 13 people and injured many more at fort hood and only one attack of this nature, compared to the riots and murder in the Muslim countries at the thought the Koran was disrepected in our prison holding Radical Muslim Extremist, terrorist killers. Do you mean the country where school football teams will adjust their training schedules to practice after midnight so their "muslim" players can respect Ramadan.
Where known terrorist affiliated and sympathizing groups have been welcomed into the White House, even during the Bush Administration? The Fort Hood shooting, where a Muslim, who had contacted radical muslim terrorists, gave a presentation to medical doctors on the validity of Jihad and the beheading of non-believers whose attack on innocent men, women and children as an act of Jihad, was defined as workplace violence. Where the first thoughts by the administration were about tolerance toward Muslim Americans and the militaries first response was to admonish people not to jump to conclusions about the Jihadi sympathies of the attacker? Do you mean that country and those acts of tolerance.

Do you mean the disrespect shown to the radical muslim extremist killers where they recieve advanced medical care, three great, nutritional meals, where they recieve U.S. provided copies of the Koran, and are allowed to prey to Mecca 5 times a day? That disrespect? Do you mean in comparison to how muslims rioted when cartoons of Mohammed were put into a newspaper, and deaths were caused over it?

Compared to the tolerance anywhere in the Muslim controlled world toward Sikhs, christians, Jews, Bhudists or any other religion? Where in Muslim countries you can't even bring bibles into their countries while here in the U.S. you have thriving populations of practising Muslims, two such communities near where I live who go day to day unmolested by anyone?

Anyone in their worst dreams can in no way describe the United States as a dangerous or intolerant country for Muslims, citizens or not. The evidence just isn't there. Muslims are safer and allowed to peacefully practice their religion, as are all the other religions, including Satanists, than just about anywhere else in the world, and are safer here in the U.S. than they are in Muslim dominated countries. So again, please tell me about the "culture" of intolerance toward Islam here in the U.S. because that is truly a myth.

Please explain the "almost" violent opposition to the ground zero mosque because...there wasn't any violence at all. People responded peacefully as to why they thought building a mosque so near ground zero was disrespectful on the part of the builder, and at the same time acknowledged not only his right but his ability to build it if he insisted on being rude to the families of the victims. Once again not "almost" violent, but completely unviolent. Murfrees boro, once again, no violence and one out of 300 million people in the country, I have a mosque and an Islamic school near where I live, there are dozens of mosques in the area of ground zero already so once again, where is the "culture" of intolerance?

How many catholic churches are there in Saudi Arabia, Iran, and how safe are practitioners of any religion other than Islam in muslim countries?

 

[CoryKS]

well, it's not relevant for the victims, for sure, but it really points out that if you are that ignorant or stupid, you should not play vigilante.

Being ignorant or stupid is pretty much a requirement for playing vigilante.

 

[billc]

Here you go...

http://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/p18663.xml

New Study on Hate Crimes Debunks the Myth of a Growing Trend in Muslim Victimization

Center for Security Policy | Mar 09, 2011
By Clare M. Lopez, Christine Brim, Roland Peer
[

The Center for Security Policy today released a revised edition of their groundbreaking longitudinal study, Religious Bias Crimes 2000-2009: Muslim, Jewish and Christian Victims - Debunking the Myth of a Growing Trend in Muslim Victimization, based on FBI statistics reported annually in the Uniform Crime Reporting Program. The Center's study contradicts the assertions that religious bias crimes against Muslims have increased, and that the alleged cause is widespread “Islamophobia” in America. In fact, the study shows that religious bias crimes - also known as hate crimes - against Muslim Americans, measured by the categories of incidents, offenses or victims, have remained relatively low with a downward trend since 2001, and are significantly less than the numbers of bias crimes against Jewish victims.
The Center's study also contradicts the assumption of increased hate crimes against Muslims which has been asserted by Senator Richard Durbin's (D-IL) Senate Judiciary Committee's Subcommittee on the Constitution, and is the topic of hearings being held today. Printed copies of the study were delivered to each member of the U.S. Senate early this morning.
According to the Center's analysis, in 2009, Jewish victims of hate crimes outnumbered Muslim victims by more than 8 to 1 (1,132 Jewish victims to 132 Muslim victims). From 2000 through 2009, for every one hate crime incident against a Muslim, there were six hate crime incidents against Jewish victims (1,580 Muslim incidents versus 9,692 Jewish incidents). Even in 2001 when religious bias crimes against Muslims increased briefly for a nine-week period, total anti-Muslim incidents, offenses and victims remained approximately half of the corresponding anti-Jewish totals.

And more on the myth of intolerance toward Muslims...

http://www.danielpipes.org/358/are-muslim-americans-victimized

According to one member of the CAIR board, "Islamophobia," or the fear and hatred of Islam, is "at epidemic levels."
Is this true?
Ironically, evidence largely provided by the Musli*m organizations themselves suggests a very different picture of Muslim-American life.
In socioeconomic terms, certainly, Muslims can find little fault with America. They boast among the highest rates of education of any group in the country—a whopping 52 percent appear to hold graduate degrees—and this translates into a pattern of prestigious and remunerative employment. Immigrant Muslims tend to concentrate in the professions (especially medicine and engineering) or in entrepreneurship, and their income appears to be higher than the U.S. national average; this year, median household income was said to be $69,000. Muslim magazines are replete with advertisements for luxurious mansions, stately cars, and fine jewelry, and more than a few Muslims have lived out the classic immigrant success story of rags to riches.
Business tycoons of note in the Muslim-American community include Bijan (high-end men's clothing), Rashid A. Chaudhry (personal care products), Ayhan Hakimoglu (armaments), Yusef Haroon (consulting and managerial services), Mansoor Ijaz (investment management), Farooq Kathwari (furniture), Nemir Kirdar (venture capital), and Safi Qureshey (computers). The wealthiest Muslim American appears to be a software engineer of Turkish origins, Kenan Eyup Şahin, who in 1999 netted $1.45 billion when he sold his company, Kenan Systems, to Lucent Technologies. Muslim Americans proudly say that theirs is "the richest Muslim society on earth," and they are right.
If Muslims are not oppressed economically, neither have they encountered many difficulties being accepted in the United States. Not only do Americans make persistent efforts to understand Islam, but, formally and informally, innumerable expressions of good will have come the way of the Muslim community.
On a government level, President George Bush in 1990 began the custom of congratulating Muslim Americans on the occasion of their holidays. A year later, Muslim men of faith were invited to inaugurate sessions of Congress with recitations from the Qur'an. President Clinton, the first lady, and Secretary of State Madeleine Albright have all hosted Muslim delegations to celebrate the breaking of the month-long fast of Ramadan. In 1997, the National Park Service installed a star and crescent on the White House Ellipse, alongside the national Christmas tree and a Hanukkah menorah.
The U.S. military has been similarly accommodating. In 1992, a military aircraft took 75 enlisted Muslim soldiers to Mecca for the pilgrimage, and in 1993 the Army commissioned its first Muslim chaplain. The armed forces provide halal meals (following Islamic dietary prescriptions) and do not require daily physical training during the Ramadan fast.
As for the media, they treat Islam and Muslims with a truly unique delicacy. The religion itself is portrayed only in positive terms.

Holidays. The Islamic festivals present two challenges. Based as they are on a lunar calendar, they move forward each (solar) year by about ten days, making it impossible to schedule a regular annual time for them. And while there are only a few main holidays, one of them, Ramadan, lasts a month, during which pious Muslims fast during the day and party at night.
These customs are not easily compatible with American work habits. And yet several corporations permit their Muslim staff to work a shortened day during Ramadan, and some also allow Muslim employees to take off the several weeks or even months required to make the full-scale pilgrimage to Mecca. Employers have proved somewhat less willing to give time off during the two Eids—the other ma*jor holidays in addition to Ramadan—but a number have acquiesced here, too. Several school districts, including New York City's, permit Muslim students to be absent on five Islamic holidays (New York also suspends its alternate-side-of-the-street parking rules); Paterson, New Jersey actually closes its schools for the Eids.
Prayers. Muslims are required to pray at five designated (but changing) times throughout the day. Although it is permissible to make up for one's devotions at a later hour, many Muslims insist on praying exactly on schedule. At the office or at school, this involves being excused for a period of time and finding a suitable venue. Considering that there are millions of Muslim Americans, remarkably few problems have arisen in this connection, and many of those involve factories where it is difficult to let employees be absent at times of their choosing.
Muslim plaintiffs have won substantial settlements against employers for prayer-related disputes. In Lincolnshire, Illinois, Mohammad Abdullah was fired for leaving his job at about noon on Fridays for prayer, even though he regularly arrived early to work or stayed late to compensate. After taking his case to the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC), he won a $49,000 settlement. In Jacksonville, Florida, Fareed Ansari won $105,216 from Ray's Plumbing Contractors, his former employer, on similar grounds.

Thus, public figures who issue statements perceived as inimical to Islam are usually induced to make amends right away, sometimes under pressure from non-Muslims as well as Muslims. This can go to extreme lengths: when, earlier this year, Republican Congressman James Rogan refused to meet with one Muslim leader, Salam Al-Marayati, on the altogether correct grounds that Al-Marayati "seem[ed] to be an apologist for Muslim terrorists," Jewish and Christian organizations rushed to Al-Marayati's defense and were instrumental in prompting Rogan to express his regrets.
The same readiness to recant obtains when the media offend Muslims or commit factual errors. Jay Leno of NBC's Tonight retracted a seemingly inoffensive comedy sketch about an imaginary amusement park in Iran and promised to be "more diligent in the future." Martin Goldsmith, host of National Public Radio's Performance Today, offered "sincere apologies" for having related a legend about the sexual powers of the prophet Mu*hammad, and thanked his listeners for making their concerns known. Paul Harvey, possibly the most listened-to radio broadcaster in America, called Islam a religion" but quickly retracted this "unintentional slur" and apologized on air for having "understandably offended" Muslims.

So, please tell how this is an intolerant country...

 

[elder999]

Meanwhile, in other news:

JOPLIN, Mo. (AP) — Investigators say it will take a few days to determine if the fire that destroyed a southwest Missouri mosque was arson.
Michael Kaste, special agent in charge of the FBI's Kansas City office, said Monday that the agency is taking the investigation into the fire at the Islamic Society of Joplin very seriously. He says the FBI and the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms together have about 30 investigators working to determine the cause.
No injuries were reported.
Jasper County officials say patrols at the mosque had been stepped up since a July 4 fire at the mosque was determined to be arson. The FBI has released a video of a man appearing to set the July 4 fire and is offering a $15,000 reward in that case

And, repeated, for emphasis (which always sounds like, "for you lazy readers who are clearly less intelligent than I am for not just swallowing the same swill as I....:lfao: ):

a July 4 fire at the mosque was determined to be arson.

For added emphasis:

at the mosque

 

[granfire]

Being ignorant or stupid is pretty much a requirement for playing vigilante.

lol, you do have a point there.

 

[granfire]

One Sikh killed over 12 years ago, the candidate was forced to back track from that statement, the mosque, which everyone agreed had a right to be built but was pointed out what bad taste that would have been, and it is still going forward, isn't it, just trying to get someone to pay for it, obama who used his muslim background as a plus for having the U.S. more "respected" in the world and was elected president even with his muslim backgroune ( no I don't think he himself is a muslim, I think he isn't religious at all ) and if this guy did target these Sikhs because he thought they were muslims, once again, close to 13 years after 19 muslims murdered over 3000 U.S. and foriegn citizens, and after a "soldier of Jihad," major Hassan murdered close to 13 people and injured many more at fort hood and only one attack of this nature, compared to the riots and murder in the Muslim countries at the thought the Koran was disrepected in our prison holding Radical Muslim Extremist, terrorist killers. Do you mean the country where school football teams will adjust their training schedules to practice after midnight so their "muslim" players can respect Ramadan.
Where known terrorist affiliated and sympathizing groups have been welcomed into the White House, even during the Bush Administration? The Fort Hood shooting, where a Muslim, who had contacted radical muslim terrorists, gave a presentation to medical doctors on the validity of Jihad and the beheading of non-believers whose attack on innocent men, women and children as an act of Jihad, was defined as workplace violence. Where the first thoughts by the administration were about tolerance toward Muslim Americans and the militaries first response was to admonish people not to jump to conclusions about the Jihadi sympathies of the attacker? Do you mean that country and those acts of tolerance.

Do you mean the disrespect shown to the radical muslim extremist killers where they recieve advanced medical care, three great, nutritional meals, where they recieve U.S. provided copies of the Koran, and are allowed to prey to Mecca 5 times a day? That disrespect? Do you mean in comparison to how muslims rioted when cartoons of Mohammed were put into a newspaper, and deaths were caused over it?

Compared to the tolerance anywhere in the Muslim controlled world toward Sikhs, christians, Jews, Bhudists or any other religion? Where in Muslim countries you can't even bring bibles into their countries while here in the U.S. you have thriving populations of practising Muslims, two such communities near where I live who go day to day unmolested by anyone?

Anyone in their worst dreams can in no way describe the United States as a dangerous or intolerant country for Muslims, citizens or not. The evidence just isn't there. Muslims are safer and allowed to peacefully practice their religion, as are all the other religions, including Satanists, than just about anywhere else in the world, and are safer here in the U.S. than they are in Muslim dominated countries. So again, please tell me about the "culture" of intolerance toward Islam here in the U.S. because that is truly a myth.

Please explain the "almost" violent opposition to the ground zero mosque because...there wasn't any violence at all. People responded peacefully as to why they thought building a mosque so near ground zero was disrespectful on the part of the builder, and at the same time acknowledged not only his right but his ability to build it if he insisted on being rude to the families of the victims. Once again not "almost" violent, but completely unviolent. Murfrees boro, once again, no violence and one out of 300 million people in the country, I have a mosque and an Islamic school near where I live, there are dozens of mosques in the area of ground zero already so once again, where is the "culture" of intolerance?

How many catholic churches are there in Saudi Arabia, Iran, and how safe are practitioners of any religion other than Islam in muslim countries?

Other countries are not our concern. Our neighbors are our concern.
it should not matter if the dump around the corner is turned into a christian church or a Jewish Temple or a Muslim Mosque.

But I do thank you, you do prove my point, down to the T

 

[WC_lun]

One Sikh killed over 12 years ago, the candidate was forced to back track from that statement, the mosque, which everyone agreed had a right to be built but was pointed out what bad taste that would have been, and it is still going forward, isn't it, just trying to get someone to pay for it, obama who used his muslim background as a plus for having the U.S. more "respected" in the world and was elected president even with his muslim backgroune ( no I don't think he himself is a muslim, I think he isn't religious at all ) and if this guy did target these Sikhs because he thought they were muslims, once again, close to 13 years after 19 muslims murdered over 3000 U.S. and foriegn citizens, and after a "soldier of Jihad," major Hassan murdered close to 13 people and injured many more at fort hood and only one attack of this nature, compared to the riots and murder in the Muslim countries at the thought the Koran was disrepected in our prison holding Radical Muslim Extremist, terrorist killers. Do you mean the country where school football teams will adjust their training schedules to practice after midnight so their "muslim" players can respect Ramadan.
Where known terrorist affiliated and sympathizing groups have been welcomed into the White House, even during the Bush Administration? The Fort Hood shooting, where a Muslim, who had contacted radical muslim terrorists, gave a presentation to medical doctors on the validity of Jihad and the beheading of non-believers whose attack on innocent men, women and children as an act of Jihad, was defined as workplace violence. Where the first thoughts by the administration were about tolerance toward Muslim Americans and the militaries first response was to admonish people not to jump to conclusions about the Jihadi sympathies of the attacker? Do you mean that country and those acts of tolerance.

Do you mean the disrespect shown to the radical muslim extremist killers where they recieve advanced medical care, three great, nutritional meals, where they recieve U.S. provided copies of the Koran, and are allowed to prey to Mecca 5 times a day? That disrespect? Do you mean in comparison to how muslims rioted when cartoons of Mohammed were put into a newspaper, and deaths were caused over it?

Compared to the tolerance anywhere in the Muslim controlled world toward Sikhs, christians, Jews, Bhudists or any other religion? Where in Muslim countries you can't even bring bibles into their countries while here in the U.S. you have thriving populations of practising Muslims, two such communities near where I live who go day to day unmolested by anyone?

Anyone in their worst dreams can in no way describe the United States as a dangerous or intolerant country for Muslims, citizens or not. The evidence just isn't there. Muslims are safer and allowed to peacefully practice their religion, as are all the other religions, including Satanists, than just about anywhere else in the world, and are safer here in the U.S. than they are in Muslim dominated countries. So again, please tell me about the "culture" of intolerance toward Islam here in the U.S. because that is truly a myth.

Please explain the "almost" violent opposition to the ground zero mosque because...there wasn't any violence at all. People responded peacefully as to why they thought building a mosque so near ground zero was disrespectful on the part of the builder, and at the same time acknowledged not only his right but his ability to build it if he insisted on being rude to the families of the victims. Once again not "almost" violent, but completely unviolent. Murfrees boro, once again, no violence and one out of 300 million people in the country, I have a mosque and an Islamic school near where I live, there are dozens of mosques in the area of ground zero already so once again, where is the "culture" of intolerance?

How many catholic churches are there in Saudi Arabia, Iran, and how safe are practitioners of any religion other than Islam in muslim countries?

So now we hold ourselves to the same standard that other countries hold themselves to? So now its okay to persecute minorities because other countries do it? I guess it is okay to limit other religions here now, huh? I really don't know how many times this can be said without it sinking in, just because someone else does it, doesn't mean we should do it. You should have learned this as a child. We are supposed to hold ourselves to a standard here.

 

[Wo Fat]

And more on the myth of intolerance toward Muslims...

Suffice it to say that those particular Americans who reduce their ethnic/racial hatred to violence will have their silent supporters. Those silent supporters--the people who make excuse after excuse for this kind of ethnic/racial violence--are nothing more than enablers.

Nothing new under the sun.

 

[blindsage]

Here you go...

http://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/p18663.xml


And more on the myth of intolerance toward Muslims...

http://www.danielpipes.org/358/are-muslim-americans-victimized


So, please tell how this is an intolerant country...

So your "proof" is a conservative think tank that was militantly against the Ground Zero Mosque, and a scholar that is very well known for his biased views against Muslims? Your biased use of biased resources to "prove" you point just supports the point others have made about your views and posts.

Now for opposing evidence:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/125312/religious-prejudice-stronger-against-muslims.aspx

More than 4 in 10 Americans (43%) admit to feeling at least "a little" prejudice toward Muslims -- more than twice the number who say the same about Christians (18%), Jews (15%) and Buddhists (14%). The findings are based on a new Gallup Center for Muslim Studies report, "Religious Perceptions in America: With an In-Depth Analysis of U.S. Attitudes Toward Muslims and Islam," released Thursday.

In a separate question asking Americans to express their overall view about each of the four religions evaluated, Islam is the most negatively viewed. Nearly one-third of Americans (31%) say their opinion of Islam is "not favorable at all" versus 9% who say their opinion is "very favorable." This stands in contrast to Americans' views of Christianity and Judaism, which are far more likely to be "very favorable" than "not favorable at all," while Buddhism draws almost equally positive and negative opinions at the extremes. Gallup conducted the nationwide U.S. survey between Oct. 31 and Nov. 13, 2009, spanning the Fort Hood shooting in which a U.S.-born Muslim military doctor killed 13 people on the Army base on Nov. 5.

http://www.people-press.org/2009/09/09/muslims-widely-seen-as-facing-discrimination/

http://www.aclu.org/protecting-religious-freedom-muslims