Should Sex Ed be reformed?

[Twin Fist]

nope, screw that.

If i had to learn on my own, so do they....

 

[tellner]

More than just my opinion Twinnie?

Well, there's an entire professional literature on the subject. I suggest starting with the Guttmacher Institute. They've been producing real peer-reviewed research on the subject for decades. But it's made up of icky things like "facts" and "research". It doesn't mention your Imaginary Invisible Sky Friend and doesn't assume its conclusions and demonize anyone who disagrees. It also uses big words. So you probably wouldn't like it.

 

[Tez3]

nope, screw that.

If i had to learn on my own, so do they....

intentional pun?
I wasn't thinking of the mens benefit lol, it was to save all those girls having to put up with the inept fumblings so beloved of men. If people knew how to make love properly it may also cut down on teen pregnancies as they would actually know whats what, none of this 'you can't get pregnant first time, can't get pregnant if you do it standing up' stuff, this goes for all ages not just teens.
In the 1980's a friend of mine, one of twelve children from Eire said it wasn't till her mother got a new doctor that she realised she didn't have to go on having babies. She simply didn't know and she was in her forties ( though she looked ten years older and had multiple health problems through having so many pregnancies by then) that she could use contraception. Sex education isn't just for teens it's for everyone and is for life.
Sex education is a huge subject, apart from contraception, how many people trying for a family know the steps they should take to ensure a healthy pregnancy and birth? shouldn't that be taught too?
One of the best classes I've seen was where teenagers were taught how to care for babies, this had two benefits, it put a lot of them off having babies too young and it gave them skills to deal with babies when they did decide to have them. Babies don't come with handbooks and in these days of scattered families new mothers need all the help they can get.

 

[Twin Fist]

when have I mentioned religion, or my beliefs in this thread? When have I said that God had anything to do with my thoughts on this subject?

oh thats right, i havnt and you are just making stuff up.

AGAIN

More than just my opinion Twinnie?

Well, there's an entire professional literature on the subject. I suggest starting with the Guttmacher Institute. They've been producing real peer-reviewed research on the subject for decades. But it's made up of icky things like "facts" and "research". It doesn't mention your Imaginary Invisible Sky Friend and doesn't assume its conclusions and demonize anyone who disagrees. It also uses big words. So you probably wouldn't like it.

 

[shesulsa]

Lisa, I was not defending your post nor you in making the point that youngsters generally are engaging in stupid activities.

There is another factor behind sexual education here we haven't mentioned (I don't think) thus far and that is the issue of abuse. There have been girls raped and molested without understanding what was happening to them until finally finding out of their own accord.

In anticipation to the response, I will say this does not make them stupid either ... it means they are damaged and the lack of education did not help them.

And I'm outta here.

 

[Lisa]

I am really rather enjoying this conversation and would really hate for this to go down the toilet.

I am not moderating here, cause I am involved in the thread but I am asking as another member of this board to not let this get personal. We are adults after all and don't need this thread to go down hill.

Shesulsa brings up a good point about rape and abuse. What about those children that are molested and told it is a little secret. Where are they going to learn, except perhaps school, that it is wrong?

My mom grew up in an abuse household, physically not sexually, she would go to school with bruises and cuts from her mother and the school would do nothing, just turn a blind eye. Should they do the same in a sexual situation or in a situation like that.

School is suppose to prepare us for what is out there, school is suppose to give us as many tools as possible so we can go out in the community and become healthy productive adults. If they aren't learning this stuff at home, where are they suppose to learn it?

 

[arnisador]

like I said: Diseases, pregnancy, and how to prevent both, INCLUDING abstaining. And NOTHING else. Thats what it should be. if you have to reform it, like I said, take them to the welfare office. Take them to see crack whores. Whip out the medical text book and show them infected stuff looks like. Take them to meet someone DYING from cervical cancer because she got HPV

Some of that is beneficial, but...

for example, if you think the mission of ex ed is to make sure teens have a good sex life, you might be stupid.

...teens are people too.

if you think the mission of sex ed should be to make sure teens dont catch disease, or get pregnant, you might be onto something.

No, they're going to be having sex most of their lives and setting a good, positive foundation has value. Often domestic abuse is addressed in these classes...the female orgasm...what to expect in pregnancy...all reasonable.

now what is the ONE way to make sure one doesnt get pregnant or catch a disease?

Being abstinent (including not being sexually assaulted). It doesn't follow that teaching abstinence works. We teach people how to save for retirement. Do they then simply follow that advice and do it? We teach them all sorts of things they don't do. Knowing the next-best option is important in real life. Staying home may be safer than flying, but I'd still like to know just how much less safe it is, and how to use the emergency exits...

 

[Grenadier]

Folks, this is a pretty good thread, especially over a topic that can get heated in a hurry. I'd like to keep it that way.

Remember, feel free to throw darts at the message, but keep the darts away from the messenger.

 

[jks9199]

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[MJS]

as Ron White put it:

You Cant Fix Stupid

no amount of sex ed will get stupid people to be smart, or irresponsible people to suddenly act right.

like I said: Diseases, pregnancy, and how to prevent both, INCLUDING abstaining. And NOTHING else. Thats what it should be. if you have to reform it, like I said, take them to the welfare office. Take them to see crack whores. Whip out the medical text book and show them infected stuff looks like. Take them to meet someone DYING from cervical cancer because she got HPV

it is all about MISSION. Civilians have a hard time grasping the concept of "mission" for example, if you think the mission of ex ed is to make sure teens have a good sex life, you might be stupid.

if you think the mission of sex ed should be to make sure teens dont catch disease, or get pregnant, you might be onto something.

now what is the ONE way to make sure one doesnt get pregnant or catch a disease? and that just so happens to be the one thing that the social "reformers" want to leave out.....

nope, screw that.

If i had to learn on my own, so do they....

I hate to say it, but I am afraid I find myself disagreeing with you here. Going on what you're saying, it seems that you're assuming that because you figured out right from wrong and made no mistakes, that everyone else in the world will do the same.

As I've said, sex ed may or may not work, just like putting on a demo with the PD and FD at the local high school to show what happens when you drive drunk, doesnt always work, but its worth a shot. At least the message is getting out there, because we all know that in cases like this, its a damned if you do/damned if you dont situation. Provide sex ed, people *****. Dont provide it, people *****.

Simply amazing.

 

[tellner]

To recap...

One side believes that ignorance and lies are better than knowledge and the truth. The other side says that knowledge and the truth are better than lies and ignorance.

The ones who are in favor of keeping children ignorant and filling their heads with ******** say it's because they want to guard morality.

The ones who want children to learn responsibility and to guide their lives based on what is real do it out of pragmatism.

Funny, that.

 

[arnisador]

The ones who are in favor of keeping children ignorant and filling their heads with ******** say it's because they want to guard morality.

The ones who want children to learn responsibility and to guide their lives based on what is real do it out of pragmatism.

It's more than just pragmatism. I don't believe that someone who is 18 years minus one day should be fully celibate and that someone who is 18 years plus one day should be suddenly free to do as he or she pleases (or whatever age is chosen). Children explore their bodies from infancy. Teens have legitimate sexual feelings. Does anyone think two 16 year olds who are dating shouldn't kiss? How about 'second base'? Where's the line? Sexual education is about more than just intercourse and pregnancy. There's a kid in that class who worries that he or she is abnormal because of excessive masturbation. There's a kid thinking "Am I gay?" There's a kid thinking that his or her partner is exerting too much pressure to go too far too soon and wondering how to handle it and what other kids of the same age are really doing (not just claiming they've done). There are kids substituting sex for intimacy. There are kids already sexually active who lack the knowledge or nerve to insist on proper birth control. There's a kid who is/was abused who hasn't yet been told "It's not your fault." There's a lot of ground to cover.

I'm not looking for my kids to be "Sweet 16 and never been kissed" (well, make that Sweet 18 maybe). That's not normal, typical development in this country. So I see a lot of control and repression of what's natural in discussions like this. Discourage them from having intercourse before they're 18? I'm for that, though half of kids will--that's where some of the pragmatism comes in. But "sex" means more than just "sexual intercourse" here. There are a lot of (formal) virgins doing things that can transmit diseases, cause emotional upheaval, etc. There are kids who can handle it already and kids who really can't. Even kids not having sex are apt to be thinking/worried about it, and could use some info. High school students are hormone-laden, as every teacher knows. Let's not pretend they don't have these feelings, urges, and curiousities. They should...and it's natural. Natural selection has forced this on them, and for many kids it's pon farr every day for years after puberty hits.

Given the important role sex plays in creating the workers who will fund my Social Security benefits, maybe some time spent on it isn't a bad idea.

 

[yorkshirelad]

I dont buy into the whole using just fear as education. IMO, an answer or reason why kids should not do this or that, is required to help and give a better understanding. If this is not done, well, let me use the martial arts as an example...

You're in class learning a kata. Teacher shows you 3 moves and you ask what they're for, what applications they have, etc. The reply is.."Well, umm....you do those moves because...........................................................................................................because thats the way the kata is done."

Doesnt sound like a good reason does it? Maybe, if the teacher said, "Well, the first move can be blocking a punch, it can also be a defense against a lapel grab, and you're now putting them into an arm lock. The 2nd are 3rd moves, are defending against 2 attackers, 1 trying to punch you and the other trying to kick you."

Option 2 sounds much better. So instead ofa parent JUST using fear or JUST saying dont have sex, a reason why, a list of risks, etc. should be added.

Just my .02.

If you read my quote, you would have noticed that my father EXPLAINED the consequences that would arise due to my actions. I both feared and respected him. I also love the old bugger. He never used "just fear" to keep me in check. That is not at all what I am advocating.

What I am advocating is leaving sex ed to parents to teach how they see fit.

 

[Sukerkin]

The problem with that tho' YL, is that many parents do not do so.

I was going to say "and have historically not done so" but I realised that that was a supposition rather than something I had any evidence for (not a branch of history I have delved).

It is that lack of parental education that has lead to the need for schools to step in to the breach. I do, however, agree that that has in turn has probably lead to many more parents not fulfilling this responsibility because 'the school will do it'.

 

[blindsage]

I was catching up on this and just never understand why we can't have these debates without resorting to tired, bs assumptions.

The vast majority of people on the 'left' in the U.S. believe in God, and most of them are Christian.

Belief in God doesn't make you unpragmatic. Most people who argue for sex-ed believe in God, it's in the numbers.

Criticising sex-ed does not necessarily make you ignorant, dogmatic, or naive.

Being for sex-ed does not necessarily mean you are for total Stalinist control of our lives.

 

[Twin Fist]

MJS-
no one can really argue that those demo's by the police fire dept encourage drinking. It is pretty clear that the sort of programs some people advocate would in fact encourage kids to experiment.


teach them INFORMATION sure

MORALS? NOPE

not no but hell no. no way no how is some school teacher gonna try and tell my kids what is or isnt moral.

thats a parents job.

you think kids need information? You must not have any kids if you think that. Trust me, I just raised one, and I caught her googling more than just her bio homework. This aint the 50's anymore. The information is all out there, and they know how to get it.


diseases, pregnancy, how to prevent each.

WHY does anything more need to be taught?



BTW- i was answering tez's joking post about teaching young boys proper technique when I said 'if I had to learn on my own, so they should too"

It was a jest.

 

[Tez3]

Of course the kids will google for all the information they want, I daresay they could tell us a thing or too but hands up all those that have a headache or an odd pain have been on the internet and realised they have the rarest cancer in the world, two days to live then die in the worst way possible....until they see the doctor!

Teaching the children facts can put their minds at rest, that normal people don't have sex the way it happens in porn films for a start! that sex doesn't have to be violent, that as others have eloquently put it, abuse isn't normal. There's a huge amount of information out there, talking it over with your children helps sift it for what they need, they can ask questions if they need to, it's communicating with your children plus you might learn something and it shows that you care! Teenagers really need to know that.
TBH I don't think anyone on here in this thread has suggested that school or teachers should teach morality,only facts.

 

[Tez3]

Of course not all information is reliable especially when posted by one of my strange Welsh friends, I was on an MMA forum, the thread was about a particular promotion which Ricky had answered,someone posted that he sounded as if he was writing scripts for Kelloggs adverts. Ricky replied and you know someone out there is going to believe this...
BTW English is his second language, Welsh is first hence spelling etc.

"yip, John is right...Kellog is taken from the welsh word for rooster which is ceiliog, and if you look at the kellogs icon on the box it is infact a rooster.
Corn flakes were invented by welsh settlers in the USA as a cure for masterbaiton. the idea was they would fill up a mattress full of corn flakes so if someone wanted to choke the chicken they would be heard and then shamed! but they decided to eat these tasty masterbation cures and make millions of dollers instead"

 

[Twin Fist]

hetero=homo

thats a MORAL judgment, not a factual one (even tho i agree, but honesty forces me to call it what it is, a moral judgment)

so Irene, they ARE trying to teach morality

and yes, the PARENTS should be talking to them, not some hack job teacher that is only still employed because the union wont let them get fired.....

FACTS

disease, pregnancy, how to prevent both

everything else is judgment calls, and outside the realm of what the schools should be teaching.

Not to mention, you cant trust a teacher to JUST teach anymore, every other week there is some teacher on the news either screwing a student, or preaching politics

you cant tell me you trust them to NOT inject thier own judgments into it.

 

[Tez3]

hetero=homo

thats a MORAL judgment, not a factual one (even tho i agree, but honesty forces me to call it what it is, a moral judgment)

so Irene, they ARE trying to teach morality

and yes, the PARENTS should be talking to them, not some hack job teacher that is only still employed because the union wont let them get fired.....

FACTS

disease, pregnancy, how to prevent both

everything else is judgment calls, and outside the realm of what the schools should be teaching.

Not to mention, you cant trust a teacher to JUST teach anymore, every other week there is some teacher on the news either screwing a student, or preaching politics

you cant tell me you trust them to NOT inject thier own judgments into it.

You live in an enormous country, are you saying every teacher in every school is teaching the same thing?
I bet the Catholic schools aren't for one! Is every teacher in America bad then?
You live in the greatest consumer society in the world so there must be customer choice, it can't be hard to find schools that meet your standards?