Shotokan for self defence.

[RafaChan]

Gichin Funakoshi was a Karate Master, not a God.

My intention in reproduce some words of wisdom are not to qualify those words by the absolute truth idea scope for everyone here, was more like to serve as a guidance. I think people have to dive in and find their personal truths. There are a lot of patches to follow and we can freely catch from them what will better fit for us to create our own truth. I think the quest is personal yet we can meet a lot in common ground perspectives while sharing. Not an easy job for the closed mindeds, read heavy traditionalists or modern blindeds.

All of his teachings can be qualified like any one else.

Yes, i do agree in part, and they were no doubt. I think one of the persons who did that in a way that have affected shotokan so much was his own son, master Yoshitaka. Of manny things he have questioned and changed the most notable was to brake the old method of 3 years per kata. (thanks master Giko)

Personally, of all of that said... If someone choose a particular method to follow like do 3 years each kata before go to another or if they worship a cow and view it as a god and they feel good about that and things are working nice and smooth that way for them, i do think for that particular cases those views and methods are valid.

Not valid for everyone ofc, nor even for the majority of the people but your opinion alone about what you think its truth or what is it should be or not the truth doesnt invalidate other people ways and experiences.

Ok, now about kata, forms, stances... Ill really try to save you from another boring history class or thesis...

 

[K-man]

|
I thought the information you gave me indicated more emphasis on higher, more natural stances, that's all.

Moto dachi is a totally natural stance, much the same as a boxer's stance. Sanchin dachi takes your leg around and behind your opponent's leg when you are grappling. Lower stances, for example Zenkutsu dachi, come into play if you are in a lower position such as having your arms around your opponent's torso and you move past and use the back leg to break his structure. Shiko dachi, or a transition of zenkutsu into shiko, facilitates a take down where your arm is around your opponent's neck or even chest. All the stances have their uses and not always in the way you see them taught.

 

[RafaChan]

Ill paraphrase 2 of the 20 principles of Master Funakoshi here that i find will bring more depth to the discussion :

#17 Learn various stances as a beginner but then rely on a natural posture. (regular stances practice will make your natural posture way more balanced)

#17. This is what everyone pretty much does, either for the right or wrong reasons.... Okinawan karate bias against low stances such as in Goju Ryu is still subject to the principles of stances overall. There's a wider interpretation of traditional karate stances than K=MAN's.

Sensei Yoshitaka have brought shotokan stances deeper, despite he being a small guy, and he was a competent fighter with that. So i think we can assume that a deeper and lower stance was his natural posture ? Some say in before heian shodan was not peformed with zenkutsu dachi low stance it was with moto dachi middle height, a more "natural" one. Moto dachi for me its the typical thai/boxer stance wich everyone adopt for the most part in SD stuff or sports, but that doesnt invalidate lower stances.

Stances are real and some of them have being recorded at video.

Typical "porradeiro", where going to fight on the ground can put you in disadvantage. This video has a lot of moto dachi imo (mainstream stance ?), can see some zenkutsu also:

To keep on topic, karate stances in SD can be and are real or even "natural":

I like how he make the transition while stepping out of the guy in a 45º swep. Ill keep saying shotokan can give SD usefull tools or in the worst case scenario a place to start.

In the vid bellow Machida's brother, you can look from 00:30, 01:32 he's in zenkutsu, more deeper than the thai guy (him more like with moto dachi). 01:36 the ghost of ikken hissatsu kumite still haunting us... Very fast, precise, heavy kata adept btw. I know theres at least 4 zenkutsu variations that have changed between masters. I think hes using the modern one of master Hidetaka. A karate kata stance in MMA and recorded so it must be real.

Kokutsu stance in kumite, A defensive, counter attack stance. Master Lyoto stances very deep, a true shotokan. Look how he transition to kokutsu-zenkutsu with such speed and brilliance, and then ashi barai the other guy. Lyoto did must be real ^^

Theres a reason behind all of that. A fact that make it truth for everyone despite your personal beliefs, and shotokan exploit that wich is:

The lower the stance lower will be the center of gravity and higher will be the power and the balance achieved.

But master Funakoshi in the past insisted: "High stances are for the advanced practitioners, low stances for the begginer."

From my personal view and experience i think the lower stances can be quite devastating. Capoeira fighters trow their kicks coming from very very low stances while applying a lot of momentum spinning head, torso, hips and legs like a pendulum. For an example regard that:

 

[ShotoNoob]

Overall-IMHO-your commentary has been very well constructed, not the least bit boring, IMO. It may be boring for the impatient, or Matt Thorton followers who want gym coach-speak. Those kinds of MA practitioners will have trouble with the depth demanded by traditional karate training... particularly Shotokan karate....

...Personally, of all of that said... If someone choose a particular method to follow like do 3 years each kata before go to another or if they worship a cow and view it as a god and they feel good about that and things are working nice and smooth that way for them, i do think for that particular cases those views and methods are valid.

|
Ah, everyone has their own style, their own attributes & limitations. Yet the message of Gichin Funakosi is that there are certain principles of developing the human potential & applying that to self defense. The traditions represent and point the way to those principles, and understanding. These same traditions, the conventions of actual karate practice can also mask, divert, or impede the originally sought-after principles of TMA training. Depends on the interpretations inherent to the style, to the instructor, to the person....
|
So, in terms of traditional Shotokan principles, it's a big trap, a big mistake to say what's working for you in your particular environment is what defines the principles.

Not valid for everyone ofc, nor even for the majority of the people but your opinion alone about what you think its truth or what is it should be or not the truth doesnt invalidate other people ways and experiences.

|
Well, I have a pretty good handle on the mental acuity skills to effect karate in practice. I'm in the minority, however, I ascribe a lot of that to the lack of personal discipline required in practitioners to train mentally or to try to understand the mental dimension of TMA, as intangible as it is to observe easily. It is the specification of the mental qualities in the Shotokan curriculum that sets Shotokan superior to the sport-based methods. The mind & body union, with key mental capabilities directing one's action.
|
Way too many traditional karate practitioners are looking for a testosterone expression, recreation, or serving some emotional need to compete, etc. None of these is mental discipline in action.

Ok, now about kata, forms, stances... Ill really try to save you from another boring history class or thesis...

|
Well, K-Man is taking the discussion back to technical s, where he has high-level expertise. I doubt if the majority of karate practitioners will have have the patience to read your Shotokan-manual-thesis, and the quality of the majority of Shotokan practitioners karate will suffer accordingly.
\
I trained old-school Funakoshi & spent several, several years on the taikyoku kata (also Heian during that time). That's a major. major driver of how I got the level of mental ability I possess.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Moto dachi is a totally natural stance, much the same as a boxer's stance. Sanchin dachi takes your leg around and behind your opponent's leg when you are grappling. Lower stances, for example Zenkutsu dachi, come into play if you are in a lower position such as having your arms around your opponent's torso and you move past and use the back leg to break his structure. Shiko dachi, or a transition of zenkutsu into shiko, facilitates a take down where your arm is around your opponent's neck or even chest. All the stances have their uses and not always in the way you see them taught.

|
For those who want to get into the technicals, you're the authority.... I find the message in the Shotokan curriculum is there is a very wide range of stances for one to apply as one sees' fit in actual action. The stereotype of Shotokan fighting in training stances, I can accept the conventions here, yet the curriculum specifically addresses variation in stances, including the generality between high & low stances.
|
Moreover, stances involve the development of mental discipline in terms of mind body union. And more.... which leads to more dynamic kumite tactics.
|
This is in direct contrast to those in MMA, sport fighting who claim that traditional karate stances are rigid, fixed, immobile. Shotokan in particular, has made many physical adaptions to stance practice to make same more practical in application.
|
However, it is the mental acuity skill behind traditional karate, including fighting from stances, that launches dynamic action far superior to boxer footwork, the typical kickboxer mobility. Not for the reactive, though....

 

[ShotoNoob]

...
But master Funakoshi in the past insisted: "High stances are for the advanced practitioners, low stances for the begginer."

|
It's hard to find fault with your illustrations. Particularly in that you relates Shotokan stances to SD / fighting confrontations.
|
What I would put out on Funakoshi, how I look at his precepts, is that the man came up with a list of standards to define what Shotokan is doing. It's an academic list, like something I would personally put together in a karate training manual. lt's far short, far short of a system of training the components & interactions thereof of a live human being.
|
Funakoshi's Shotokan precepts represent guideposts, goal posts to take us in the right direction according to the principles underlying traditional karate.
|
On the high/ low stance. Funakoshi, by low stances, sought to develop strength, flexiblity, etc. AND the mental discipline component which would evolve into mind / body unity. Low stances also provide a tactical advantage to certain individuals as well as a tactical alternative to the more natural stances. << IS THE MATT THORTON "SBG" USER GETTING THE PURPORT OF THE COMPLEXITY & WISDOM built into the traditional karate model? >> Funakoshi recognized from the Okinawan's that strength and so on could also be gained from training high stances,. yet same were much more effective for the most in actual application for various reasons I'll leave to K=MAN.
|
Everybody I've trained with in traditional karate, particularly the kung fu stylists seems to have an understanding of the principle of stances. The move to boxing-like stances without thought of the karate counterpart, or that kickboxing mobility of dancing all around, is really to me, a mental discipline issue both in training & an inability to impart mind / body unity.
|
Funakoshi's single sentence on stances H/L is a summary principle he came up with based on the principles of the Okinawan karate masters he trained under. Train low for physical benefit & mental discipline, fight high for physical application applied with mental discipline. We need a whole chapter when Funakoshi gave us an outline....

 

[drop bear]

I still think mental acuity skill as you describe it iis made up.

It seems to spring from nowhere and achieve nothing.

How do you tell from looking if someone has developed this skill?

 

[drop bear]

Mma stance can be a bit deeper and a bit more 50 50 to defend takedowns better.

No secret method. No hidden agenda.

 

[RafaChan]

#18 The kata must always be practiced correctly: real combat is another matter. (yes, coz kata its like a pyctograph, an imprint in time of a group of techniques)

#18. I believe this is a true statement, yet very vague and unqualified. Kata is so deep & intricate, what exactly is it important to emphasize, what are we really supposed to be focusing on? Funakoshi's #18 is just a rule that say do kata right rather than sloppy or wrong in some way. Not helpful, really.
|
"Combat is another matter?" Zero definition of what he is talking about. Again, Funakoshi is merely laying out some very broad distinction between kata & combat. Like obviously.

Yes i do agree its vague, not so sure if unqualified. I think when he says ''must always be practiced correctly'' it's other way to say that people have to pass the kata the exact same way they learnt it. Despite this close the doors for the most creative ones, maybe theres a reason if we look closely to one of kata pursposes wich is transmit and preserve a body of techniques that were succesfull in IRL battles and SD, but more than that.

It preserves techniques of great masters in a time and place were writing were scarce and not so secure to keep techniques safe from being destroyed they even tell stories about warriors. Yes they are like a relique of a by gone era yet we still beholding them. Any guarantee that we suddenly cant lost all of our technoloy and did came back to the rocky age again?

It's so deep and intricate that's really true. Not for everyone i would say, but yet we see most dojos training it mechanically with the kids without any SD or other practical purpose other than physical conditioning. I told in other post that even in the heian nidan kata basics we can find a technic potentially lethal thats not even "sparrable". But thats the rite focus to give to the kids? Ofc not. So the kata focus is variable. What is important to emphasize ? It depends. We can take much more from it for sure.

IMO kata its like a potentially good wine. The older (practicing them), the better, under the right conditions (understandment). Theres so much we can take. Imo kata will make good for your body balance, alignement, conditioning thats true. But for the mind and spirit also. Mind will benefit a lot also coz when performing the techniques you will add a lot more in term of movement sinapsys. In the karatejesse.com site he says kata its a "biological data storage system". And finally spirit... thats the part a lot of people hate and doesnt comprehend. But all kata its intertwined with so called "mysticism" by a concept. Not some cheap mysticism but more like a concept from a religion and its budhism.

Kata apply the happo no kuzushi 8 direction form principle. Schools teachs it saying its the way to brake the opponents balance but its much more than that. Note that in kata you can go to the 4 directions and sometimes you turn 45º and keep advancing. Thats it. 8 directions, coordinates. That will prove a point about everyone its kinda wrong. That kata its linear, static. No way. You can go practice kata movement by going forward, backward and moving in a 360º angle. 45º x 8 = 360º. Kata it's a sphere, so multi dimensional. Kata its to set you free and not to limitate you. According to a karateka shugenja monk kata embodies and represents the dharmachakra = wheel of dharma = wheel of law.

Its very difficult to get away with that if you just think about why a kata was ever created long millenia ago. A sensei told me once that okinawate didnt have kata untill the chinese bring it to them. By these chinese influence okinawate evolved to tode than shurite, nahate and tomarite. MA that time was also considered a way to enlightnement so i think i can comprehend why they passed the traditions that way. It served a purpose.

If you wanna pass all this up and do your straight forward training its understandable. Cant say about Judo but in Karate some techniques are not applicable by the straight forward aproach. Atemi waza its high level bunkai that came with kyusho-jutsu and its shared by manny japanese MA.

#18 The kata must always be practiced correctly: real combat is another matter

Real combat is another matter? Yes no definition, its a principle not a thesis ^^ . But i think hes saying he dont fight in the same way like he would do a kata. Hes saying you can use the techniques inside as independant pieces/parts and even perform a combo with pieces of different katas. Like that tobi mae gueri machida used on randy couture its from chinto kata. Its all wide open not like that linearity as we know. And people taught was something new and never saw that before they said wow, thats karate kid, and guess why.

Just for the gags, this guy took kata linear static form and deep stances so serious hes rooted and barely can move, he didnt know that combat is another matter yet he won:

This other vid, a shaolin monk fighter imo a guy who have a complete sense of body balance as you can see in 05:23 and also a heavy kata practitioner, fun to watch:

 

[ShotoNoob]

I still think mental acuity skill as you describe it iis made up.

It seems to spring from nowhere and achieve nothing.

How do you tell from looking if someone has developed this skill?

|
Just raising negative assertions, give Matt Thorton people a call. You'd make a great, guest lecturer.... spend an hour or 2 on why the karate master's were / are "goobers".....

 

[ShotoNoob]

Yes i do agree its vague, not so sure if unqualified. I think when he says ''must always be practiced correctly'' it's other way to say that people have to pass the kata the exact same way they learnt it. Despite this close the doors for the most creative ones, maybe theres a reason if we look closely to one of kata pursposes wich is transmit and preserve a body of techniques that were succesfull in IRL battles and SD, but more than that.

|
You've got to be K=MAN's cousin... laying out a whole karate training manual.
|
I won't do justice to your whole post right know--it's good. Yet the real challenge is the people who need your training perspective most, will they have the initial personal discipline to read & study same? What make traditional karate come "alive" to trump Matt Thorton's athletic "alive"--starts with in-depth study along with the original physical conditioning & kihon practice.
|
Let me just add, and i had posted the same example--less warmly received (i'm not related to K=MAN), of Chinzo Machida's MMA bout against the Professional kickboxer.
|
That kickboxer, a professional fighter, had virtually no answer to Chinzo's Shotokan competiton kumite reverse punch counter launched from a traditional back stance.
|
To the karate naysayers, this to me is startling evidence of how well even that awful Shotokan kihon can work in a conflict.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Going to stop here. Let me just add that a major problem Lyoto Machida has is relying on straightforward (to borrow a RAFA phrase) Shotokan competition-kumite convention too much.
|
Machida has little karate answer for aggressive infighting on the MMA opponent's part, which K=MAN is expertly qualified to address... It's also a KIME issue, if you can buy that....

 

[RafaChan]

I still think mental acuity skill as you describe it iis made up.

It seems to spring from nowhere and achieve nothing.

How do you tell from looking if someone has developed this skill?

You can take a look at Chinzo Machida attitude at that MMA fight from the video above. A lot focused but more than that, his mind was sharp enough to be the faster and precise when he needed. That alone was enough to concentrate his strategy on devastating counter attacks much alike his brother kumite vid. Speed, precision, timing, with the right skill and strategy.

IMHO minds get along with speed of reflexes-reaction, fast coordination of strategy with skills and emotional control. Mind should controls the blade/hand that should control the hearth. I can go deeper and say spirit its intention. While you can move your intention to a said attack giving more emphasis/power to it you can achieve a point in feeling the others intention. Looks like im talking about spider sense, something unreal but believe it or not that thing its even theme of academical researchs.

Mma stance can be a bit deeper and a bit more 50 50 to defend takedowns better.

No secret method. No hidden agenda.

Not much its left hidden today, its a different era. It depends of your point of view. Its all wide open, its all within the basics in a sraight forward shortcut, or it could be miles and miles far away and all hidden. One should know how to search and where to search. Mind can serve a lot by insights, creating the links of the parts in to the whole. For better understandment sometimes we need to be holistic and for better practice we need to be cartesian or both.

About MMA you told earlier about rio heroes, the way they fight bare knuckled coz i said the gloves contribute to a energy loss of the punch in SD scenario. Ill show you a video of rio heroes and will share a nice story after.

07:36 the guy enter in a frenezy bad for SD. Thats when tunnel vision starts to bugging. But thats not the point. Thats not even sport for me, too much in to the deglational thing for me. I prefer to think like ill fight the fights that are worth to fight. And for the SD perspective still not practical. Too much of an energy loss. It still have detrimental strike rules just like vale tudo, yet they brag about being no rules. Of the detrimental rules the most important for me in a SD perspective will be the strike at the testicles and neck. Im not counting bites, eyes, hair pull coz thats not so desirable in SD. Testicles and neck will stop the fight same moment you hit them for sure. You need very little power on a strike to brake trachea or adam pomme and testicles you already know.

Also, that doesnt mean when the bad guy aready got a gun in your head that will be good to trow a hand strike in the neck or kick testicles, not good for all SD scenarios ofc. In that case its preferable doing such drills:

The story as follows just states how karates applicable in a very very straight forward aproach like 1 month. That was in WWII the source its Master Funakoshi s KARATE by Graham Noble

The part that interest us: (its kinda long, good reading)

"Taiji Kase, who trained at the Shotokan in the last year or so of the war, remembered that emphasis was placed on strong basics and intense practice of kumite (especially jiyu-ippon) with much physical contact. Kase, a person not given to exaggeration, described it as "very hard". Tatsuo Suzuki told me that the well rounded pre-war training gave way to practice on "fighting", and he stressed "fighting" rather than sparring (jiyu-kumlte). I had heard stories (without details) of Yoshitaka Funakoshi and Shigeru Egami teaching special troops during the war. I asked Harada sensei about this and he told me what he had heard.

The institution concerned was the Nakano School, a training school for military espionage analogous to our MI5. Trainees were on a one year course covering undercover work, guerrilla warfare and so on. Unarmed combat was also included and the original teacher for this was Morihei Uyeshiba (of Aikido). Uyeshiba himself was good but when the students tried to apply the techniques they couldn't make them work under real conditions. In a way, Aikido had too much "technique" for the limited one year of training. The military leaders decided to look at karate as an alternative, and they observed the different styles, such as Goju, Wado, and Shotokan.

Goju-ryu, with its heavy stress on sanchin training, did not seem to have the practical application necessary, at least in its initial stages, and Wado-ryu technique seemed too "light". However, the Shotokan style as demonstrated by Yoshitaka looked impressive, and he was asked to teach at the Nakano School. Unfortunately, he was too ill and it was Shigeru Egami who did the actual teaching. Egami concentrated on two techniques: choku-zuki (straight punch) and mae-geri (front kick), and when he began teaching a class he would pick out participants and tell them to attack him as hard as they could. In this way he was able to prove the validity of his technique. Injuries were frequent. Kicks were often delivered to the shins - and this was while wearing boots.

After the war Harada sensei met someone who had trained in these classes under Egami. He recalled one time when he had hardly been able to walk for a week because of such shin kicks. But injuries were no excuse for missing training. If someone was wearing bandages, they had to be removed. If a bad injury occurred, then no doctors could be called for during training. A hard rule, but no doctors would be present on the battle front. All in all, however, this "Nakano-ryu" was successful in achieving its objectives. The military was pleased with the results and Yoshitaka and Egami gained prestige from it. Something similar was recounted by Wado-ryu karateka Takatoshi Nishizono in a chapter he contributed to the 1977 "Karate-do". (Sozo Co. Translation courtesy Ian McLaren and N. Karasawa). Nishizono began karate training when he entered Tokyo University in 1941. He became so wrapped up in karate that in fact he neglected his studies and his academic performance was poor. But after graduation he managed to get a job with the North China Transportation Company in Peking; a boring, routine job as he recalled.

In early 1945 however, he was summoned by head office and asked to take on a role as karate instructor to a Special Army Squadron in Taigen. Nishizono felt he was not really up to this but after he was told it was his duty he agreed:

"When I arrived at the special squadron I was introduced to the young Commanding Officer and the other officers. I was made aware of the aim and organization of the squadron but was ordered to keep it secret for security reasons.

"Taigen was the HQ of the 1st Army Group, North China, but our squadron consisted of only 250 volunteers, all of whom had distinguished themselves in battle. We usually wore normal military uniform with the Cherry Blossom badge, but when we began operations we changed into normal Chinese wear and we acted like ninja, carrying no weapons. We were an intelligence and guerrilla unit named "Sakura Squadron" We trained in horse riding, martial arts disguise technique and physical exercise. We never trained with swords or guns; it was required that the Sakura Squadron be able to defeat the opponent with bare hands, and this was why karate was selected.

"I began instruction immediately, on the first day. I was led to a building to be used as the dojo and found the whole squadron lined up, all stripped to the waist. They had superb physiques and sharp eyes. The commanding officer gave a briefing which included the words: "Our training must be real, just like a battle! So it may be that some of you will be killed!"

"That briefing was very effective in impressing the soldiers. Even though they were brave men, some said afterwards that it had made them feel uneasy.

"You cannot teach 200 men sufficient karate to defeat an enemy in one month if you rely on the normal methods of training. I made an instant decision and, selecting two soldiers who looked strong, ordered them to attack me using any technique they wished. They had no experience of karate so I was able to beat them easily; my kicking technique was enough. But they were very brave and continued to attack. But despite the briefing by the commanding officer I did not have the heart to attack the kintekki (testicles). I refrained from using that technique and using only sokuto I knocked them to the floor. After this the soldiers respected my ability and it was much easier for me to teach them.

"My method of training was a simple one. For punching (tsuki) I demanded that they strike to the enemy's face, and for kicking, that they attack the kintekki. For defense we used jodan-uke and gedan-barai. I trained them every day repeating these basic techniques many times. As training progressed the soldiers' stances became stronger. Then we moved on to hon-kumite--serious kumite.

"There was no stopping in our kumite and naturally some arguments arose during this practice. Also, as I could not easily oversee over 200 men I learned that when I was near they would go full force, but when my back was turned they took it easy. I knew that they were tired after their battlefield experiences and at first I pretended not to notice. However, my task was to train them to combat readiness in a month, so eventually I had to be hard with them. If I found anyone being idle I pulled them out and and fought them till they could no longer stand.

"They had all practiced judo, kendo and tsuken-jutsu (bayonet fighting) and were able to pick up karate technique quickly. After training we would take a bath. Some of the soldiers had powerful physiques and I was somewhat ashamed of my own small body.

"That month passed so quickly. All the soldiers trained hard and performed well. On the final day we said our farewells, the officers expressed their gratitude to me, and we had a party. Then I left Taigen and returned to Peking where life continued in the same way as before.

"I never found out what happened to the Sakura Squadron. I heard stories that they had been sent south on a mission and that all had been killed. The men who wore that Cherry Blossom badge were all from Northern Japan; they were so naive and kind. Now it all seems like a dream."

Peace!

 

[ShotoNoob]

....the one hit KO mentality in karate its true. Thats ikken hissatsu / ippon kowashi. It doesnt mean all the fightst have to end with just one blow but thats something all karate-ka wants to achieve. I mean, karate-ka have to fight moved by this intention, thats spirit. This is not the same as ippon-sanbon Kumites fashioned concept like one point/kill but its the same principle that have remained within the art tru its sportive ways. Thats really a true tradition,
thats the true karate jutsu spirit. In japanese kuden, oral tradition tells that we have to train strenght,
technique and spirit, thats karate-do. Technique can win strenght but spirit can wins technique. In
a clash of both skilled and strenght opponents, chances are that the one with the right intention and spirit
will win. Thats when someone achieve mushin having complete awareness, sense of space-range, timing and an empty
relaxed mind able to create the right momentum via attack or counter attack.

|
Just copied a core part of your initial dissertation.
|
Discussing or evaluating the efficacy of Shotokan karate absent the context of the entirety of the art is great for keeping threads going on & on & round & round. So you have provided the benefit of capturing a lion share of the entire picture of the art, it's essence.
\
The moral is that those viewing or practicing Shotokan without that totality are coming at Shotokan incompetently. they are not training the traditional karate mode, they're doing something that resembles Shotokan proper in appearance or in physical shape, activity. However, true Shotokan it is not.

 

[ShotoNoob]

...Goju-ryu, with its heavy stress on sanchin training, did not seem to have the practical application necessary, at least in its initial stages, and Wado-ryu technique seemed too "light". However, the Shotokan style as demonstrated by Yoshitaka looked impressive, and he was asked to teach at the Nakano School. Unfortunately, he was too ill and it was Shigeru Egami who did the actual teaching. Egami concentrated on two techniques: choku-zuki (straight punch) and mae-geri (front kick), and when he began teaching a class he would pick out participants and tell them to attack him as hard as they could. In this way he was able to prove the validity of his technique. Injuries were frequent. Kicks were often delivered to the shins - and this was while wearing boots.

|
This is why I call Shotokan and the Japanese karates, the KISS karates. The founders sought to make karate more applicable to the everyday, and pragmatic usages. The more sophisticated karate(s) take much longer to develop a functional base, though ultimately superior in application. IMO....

|
Shotokan's emphasis on physicality makes it more practicable when relying on physical strength & conditioning compared to the type of evolving skills by the Okinawan karates, IMO. The reliance on this heavy physicality and aggression, though can become a trap that stalls & frustrates higher level of skill development re mind / body union...as well as more efficient use of technique.
|
The progenitors of modern Shotokan sought to make it appealing as rigorous physical training wiht relatively simple technique to which they tied in a high dose of mental discipline. In terms of popularity & acceptance, BRILLIANT.

 

[ShotoNoob]

BLACK-BELT ARTICLE ON SHOTOKAN FOR SELF DEFENSE
|
Not to be confused with what the SD experts here @ MT afford. The vid instructor is presenting some basic self defense concepts to give you a basic foundation in a very rudimentary situation.
|

|
Where I depart from the instructor, is that he tends to say the process of facing an attack is simple, when there's a lot more than the physical picture presented. Secondly, I always hate it when the instructor's practice subject is physically smaller / weaker. That just bugs me.
|
To stay on the structure of the physical dynamic for a moment, many kumite instructors or SD proponents could or woulds say the instructor's opening tactic is dangerous in two ways:
1. He is pretty much facing his opponent head on, which he just counseled not to.
2. His face protection is 100% dependent on the parry being on-target. A foul up there could lead to the end of the fight, in the opponent's favor.
|
However, Shotokan proper does call for such a maneuver, and there are strategic advantages for doing so. Just in the structure of the response, there are several simultaneous dynamics going on....
|
(1) Notice that the instructor, as the defender, just doesn't stand still (although that is an alternative). He moves in. (2) He blocks the offensive strike, neutralizing it [for the moment]; (3) although it is a 1-2 move, he then instantly free-hand counter-strikes straight through the opening in the opponent's defense; (4) he doesn't stop there--is instantly prepared to move again, effect a follow-on tactic, again moving in.
|
He gives a Heian Shodan bunkai related example of the tactic, which could also be attributed to the Taikyouky kata. For those who love bunkai interpretations. Rather than critique same, I believe the more valuable lesson is the PRINCIPLE, of thinking how the whole body strength can be projected through techniques as per different alternatives. Think of principles of movement which can have martial application from the structure of the exercise. Think of transitions from 1 technical-tactic into an advantageous next. Just don't bounce around, dance around & assume your opponent will wilt from a stiff jab.

 

[ShotoNoob]

TYING TO THE SHOTOKAN CURRICULUM
|
What I really applaud this instructor for is breaking out in plain descriptions 2 of the tactical concepts in the Shotokan vocabulary. there's actually another 1 or 2 (I can immediately think of) he didn't mention, yet he's getting you on your way to broaching these principles.
|
I also think he portrays good KIME in his counter-tactic against the assault. Can one carry over that mental discipline into real-time conflict--the $64 dollar question?
|
Compared to the boxer, kickboxer moving around with 'footwork,' and tricky head movement & feints, etc. ,etc. the instructor deliberately moves to where he wants to be under KIME and employs technique(s) with same. The boxer/kickboxer style can work; that's why it's used all the time--KIME powered technique under KIME powered tactics is superior.... That's the Shotokan / traditional karate model....if you have built-up sufficient mental discipline to act in such a manner[1].
|
Good luck with that....
|
[1] HINT: it doesn't come from hitting the heavy bag....

 

[K-man]

BLACK-BELT ARTICLE ON SHOTOKAN FOR SELF DEFENSE
|
Not to be confused with what the SD experts here @ MT afford. The vid instructor is presenting some basic self defense concepts to give you a basic foundation in a very rudimentary situation.
|

|
Where I depart from the instructor, is that he tends to say the process of facing an attack is simple, when there's a lot more than the physical picture presented. Secondly, I always hate it when the instructor's practice subject is physically smaller / weaker. That just bugs me.
|
To stay on the structure of the physical dynamic for a moment, many kumite instructors or SD proponents could or woulds say the instructor's opening tactic is dangerous in two ways:
1. He is pretty much facing his opponent head on, which he just counseled not to.
2. His face protection is 100% dependent on the parry being on-target. A foul up there could lead to the end of the fight, in the opponent's favor.
|
However, Shotokan proper does call for such a maneuver, and there are strategic advantages for doing so. Just in the structure of the response, there are several simultaneous dynamics going on....
|
(1) Notice that the instructor, as the defender, just doesn't stand still (although that is an alternative). He moves in. (2) He blocks the offensive strike, neutralizing it [for the moment]; (3) although it is a 1-2 move, he then instantly free-hand counter-strikes straight through the opening in the opponent's defense; (4) he doesn't stop there--is instantly prepared to move again, effect a follow-on tactic, again moving in.
|
He gives a Heian Shodan bunkai related example of the tactic, which could also be attributed to the Taikyouky kata. For those who love bunkai interpretations. Rather than critique same, I believe the more valuable lesson is the PRINCIPLE, of thinking how the whole body strength can be projected through techniques as per different alternatives. Think of principles of movement which can have martial application from the structure of the exercise. Think of transitions from 1 technical-tactic into an advantageous next. Just don't bounce around, dance around & assume your opponent will wilt from a stiff jab.

Loved it. Proper karate! Ok, I had to get past the hand being left out to dry but I can live with that for the sake of the demonstration.

Where we disagree is that I believe he is right to be front on. In terms of sabaki, if you are in what I would call a typical Shotokan stance you can't move easily and you couldn't step in to do those takedowns which are the bread and butter of my training.

The other thing I didn't see was the block to which you referred. To me there was a deflection which didn't stop the attack. That is what all the 'ukes' are. They are receiving the attack and responding, just what Joe Mirza did here. Actually, I had to look him up because I really didn't think what he was doing came from Shotokan. Boy, was I glad to be mistaken. You have boosted my appreciation of Shotokan by posting this video.

 

[Hanzou]

Hanzou / Thanks for following up!

|
Your position is NOT what the traditional karate masters say. So you say over them.

|
Again, so you say. Matt Thorton has 35+ SBG's which prove your thesis. According to Matt Thorton, that is.....

|
Again, so you say. In addition to the Matt Thorton school, there's even MMA schools right in my area who think as you.

I have no idea what my quote has to do with Matt Thorton, but whatever.

The traditional karate model says different. One adopted across all kinds of karate styles. The bottom line is few have the mental discipline to do karate as I do. Even K-MAN struggles with it, and he's an expert....

If Karate is such a difficult discipline, yet more simple disciplines such as Muay Thai or Boxing are its equal (and in some cases even its superior), what does that say about the ineffectiveness of Karate training?

RE the Judo example, I and others @MT here have stipulated to your point several times. It's a simple decision tree-like mental exercise to broach the issue productively. Your 'branch' of that decision tree re the Judo example, is to choose or go to a BJJ school.

That was a nice deflection, but you still didn't answer the question; If kata is such an effective training tool, why are Bjj and Sambo practitioners so much more effective at wrist locks and leg locks than Judoka who only practice those techniques within kata?

There's other alternatives.

Such as?

 

[Hanzou]

You dont like kata, you like only to spar. Ok, im ok with that, i once taught like that. But go ahead, ill give you a basic kata drill/form. Find a friend and imagine that you guys are at a SD scenario and the guy in front of you will rob you getting a gun out of his jacket. Trow a shihon nukite at him from your natural stance, left or right hand it doesnt matter. Aim for his solar plexus if you want him unconscious or the base of the throat if you want him dead... SIMPLE like that and STRAIGHT FORWARD like that ! And all the drill performed within 1-2 seconds. So... If you wanna get the correct body axis and alignement to launch that strike and the stance to maximize its effect you can do a kihon or a kata, your choice.

That technique along with others was banned from kumite competitions given the potential lethality it can result, you can learn it from a very basic level kata heian nidan. In before people have died in kumite. I know that Kumite competitions here in brazil were forbidden by law in the 60's coz two practitioners have died in a short period of time, dont know how manny around the world but you guess. So i repeat, bring in any sports context to a SD discussion about what a specific TMA can do its quite silly and naive. In reality thats unreal !

None of those techniques were banned in the early UFCs. Did anyone die or get knocked out by those techniques?

Nope. And there were quite a few karate blackbelts in those early UFCs.

BTW, Shihon Nukite is a great way to break your fingers.