Shotokan for self defence.

[ShotoNoob]

You know that carlos its helio oldest brother rite? And that Carlos was judo-ju jutsu pioneer, the first brazilian to learn JJJ. But BJJ came with helio. Thats pretty clear to all BJJ community here.

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What I read at the site I cited says pretty much that.....

 

[ShotoNoob]

BIG WEAKNESS OF SHOTOKAN AT CONVENTIONALLY PRACTICED.
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Note the vanquished opponent, true to awful sport fighting convention, is too interested in leading a lead punch WITHOUT the transition into a strong stance. The victorious opponent exploits this fatal flaw in sport karate convention perfectly by attacking his opponent's lead leg.
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This is where the BJJ / grappler's point out the vulnerability weakness of striking arts against the assault of grapple-rs.
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However, the losing Shotokan opponent made a glaring error by traditional karate principle of putting the landing of the punch ahead of a solid foundation and preparation for whole body strength. Result, the sweep / trip produced the predetermined response, as K-MAN would say, that lead to the end of the contest.

 

[Steve]

T

I would say that there are a lot of people out there who were there who would disagree

So ive gotta say that theres a lot of people out there, even practitioners, assuming misleadings and misconceptions as truth. Check this out:

07:40 if the people you know out there its claiming that the carlos created BJJ, so gracie family members are telling lies about theirselves.

You know that carlos its helio oldest brother rite? And that Carlos was judo-ju jutsu pioneer, the first brazilian to learn JJJ. But BJJ came with helio. Thats pretty clear to all BJJ community here.

the Gracie family does indeed disagree depending upon whom you are asking. It's a big family, and there are many different, official Gracie websites. Not as cut and dry as yiu seem to think.

 

[ShotoNoob]

No one is "neglecting" other arts. People are simply tired of the nonsense associated with other arts like Karate, and prefer something a bit more straight forward.

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I can acede to some 'baggage' in Shotokan karate.
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Straightforward is a huge reason for the proven success of BJJ. I think & can agree you've captured that.
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However, straightforward = / = better. The RafaChan Shotokan karate-thesis piece kinda proves that.....

 

[ShotoNoob]

T

the Gracie family does indeed disagree depending upon whom you are asking. It's a big family, and there are many different, official Gracie websites. Not as cut and dry as yiu seem to think.

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I'm certainly a goober when it comes to detailed history lessons, I'll switch over to a Matt Bryers-posture here.
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The point of RafaChan's piece (TMU) is the working objective for me is I'll smash either Carlos or Helio on their way in. That's the goalpost.....

 

[ShotoNoob]

Hello,...
The one hit KO mentality in karate its true. Thats ikken hissatsu / ippon kowashi. It doesnt mean all the fights
have to end with just one blow but thats something all karate-ka wants to achieve. I mean, karate-ka have to fight
moved by this intention, thats spirit. This is not the same as ippon-sanbon Kumites fashioned concept like one point/kill
but its the same principle that have remained within the art tru its sportive ways.

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And to drive the point home, since the 1-strike kill may not be enough to make the point. These Shotokan kumite exchanges don't last long compared to BJJ encounters. Mere seconds.

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Notice as the losing opponent tries to do that magical "close-the-distance," the victor moves much like an Ippon Kumite pattern & fires back twice. The victor also shows the versatility of using more than a reverse punch ad-nauseous. And not all that springing up & down some many conventional karate sport competitors assume has some magical power....
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BTW: OMG, there's a little of that karate guard-blocking action in there too.....

 

[ShotoNoob]

The dynamic of why the grappler closing the distance with fast reactions is vulnerable itself is made plain the 1st part of the exchange.
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Also notice that the victor strikes and is immediately repositioned to strike again / strikes again . In a highly accurate, disciplined way. Until the opponent is disabled, fight over. All in seconds....
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The proper mental discipline for Shotokan kumite may call for the objective of ikken hissatsu, the competent Shotokan traditionalist is prepared (mentally disciplined) to instantly fire multiple / follow-on strikes necessary to fell the opponent.
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The infamous Machida (UFC or MMA dare I say?) spring-ahead / whiffs of a single reverse straight punch with nothing else fails the RafaChan Shotokan Karate manual.....on several fronts....
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Getting to this level of mental discipline calls for looking beyond 'baggage,' and learning to separate the wheat-from-the-chaff.
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What some call 'baggage' is focus on precision technique that ultimately leads to the mental discipline alluded to in the RafaChan Shotokan Karate Synopsis.
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Why Helio or Carlos No. 1,? who cares.....

 

[Hanzou]

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I can acede to some 'baggage' in Shotokan karate.
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Straightforward is a huge reason for the proven success of BJJ. I think & can agree you've captured that.
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However, straightforward = / = better. The RafaChan Shotokan karate-thesis piece kinda proves that.....

Yeah, straight-forward does equal better. Straight-forward doesn't obscure the art in favor of mysticism and fantasies. Imagine if instead of forcing students to dig through the Bunkai to find the "hidden techniques", kata were simply removed and students were taught the techniques? Utilize the time you would have spent doing katas on doing drills that actually pertain to your fighting practice.

In the end, I think you would produce a better student and karateka.

Let me give you an example;

In Judo, leglocks and wrist locks are illegal in competition, and thus tend to not be practiced in live practice (randori). They're now only found in the kata. In Bjj, leg locks and wrist locks are still legal in competition, so are openly practiced in class and live practice (rolling). There is no kata in Bjj.

Guess who's better at leg locks and wrist locks. Guess where people go to learn leg locks and wrist locks. It ain't the Judo dojo.

 

[RafaChan]

The one hit KO mentality in karate its true. Thats ikken hissatsu / ippon kowashi. It doesnt mean all the fights
have to end with just one blow but thats something all karate-ka wants to achieve. I mean, karate-ka have to fight
moved by this intention, thats spirit. This is not the same as ippon-sanbon Kumites fashioned concept like one point/kill
but its the same principle that have remained within the art tru its sportive ways.

Kumite with the ippon (1 hit), sanbon (3 hits) KO its a shadow of a principle very present in many MA traditions that teachs: the less effort with the maximum efficiency.
Im not defending Kumite and what it may bring as flaws by its intensive practice conditioning, im really in to defend a principle and really dont wanna discuss karate here tru the sportsmanship view. There's a lot of bad conditioning involved and when we face another skilled opponent that came with some strategy its more likely that we will for sure trow more than one punch in to connect other strikes, have to work more on evasion, blocks and etc...

You guys keep bringing on MMA examples to measure things in this topic and thats produces a distortion on the art concepts. With gloves on, you cant use your hands seiken properly so the energy of the punches are way lost and splashed around the glove area. I will not even talk about rules restriction, that alone will prohibit the most dangerous hand strikes from karate.

Karate have being a lot massified tru sports and associations, and have lost a lot by that. Im trying here to spread some words trying to clarify some stuff and recover what people is calling myths. If you really wanna know the essence of the art and practice it next to its roots you have to go deeper and seek for a better karate school or sensei. And not only that, start immersion on the techniques and practice/study, also try to learn from another masters from another karate schools from another country, etc...

Ill paraphrase 2 of the 20 principles of Master Funakoshi here that i find will bring more depth to the discussion :

#17 Learn various stances as a beginner but then rely on a natural posture. (regular stances practice will make your natural posture way more balanced)

#18 The kata must always be practiced correctly: real combat is another matter. (yes, coz kata its like a pyctograph, an imprint in time of a group of techniques)

Look that he doesnt mean kata techniques are not applicable. They really are. I can go deeper about that but ill give a fast example:

You dont like kata, you like only to spar. Ok, im ok with that, i once taught like that. But go ahead, ill give you a basic kata drill/form. Find a friend and imagine that you guys are at a SD scenario and the guy in front of you will rob you getting a gun out of his jacket. Trow a shihon nukite at him from your natural stance, left or right hand it doesnt matter. Aim for his solar plexus if you want him unconscious or the base of the throat if you want him dead... SIMPLE like that and STRAIGHT FORWARD like that ! And all the drill performed within 1-2 seconds. So... If you wanna get the correct body axis and alignement to launch that strike and the stance to maximize its effect you can do a kihon or a kata, your choice.

That technique along with others was banned from kumite competitions given the potential lethality it can result, you can learn it from a very basic level kata heian nidan. In before people have died in kumite. I know that Kumite competitions here in brazil were forbidden by law in the 60's coz two practitioners have died in a short period of time, dont know how manny around the world but you guess. So i repeat, bring in any sports context to a SD discussion about what a specific TMA can do its quite silly and naive. In reality thats unreal !

To keep on topic the videos that i've posted about SD scenarios the fights dont last more than 30 seconds. A lot was decided in the first 5 seconds.

I really hoped that discussion will start to head in to the right direction like manny people tried in before but i was to much of an optimistic.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Hanzou / Thanks for following up!

Yeah, straight-forward does equal better.

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Your position is NOT what the traditional karate masters say. So you say over them.

Straight-forward doesn't obscure the art in favor of mysticism and fantasies.

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Again, so you say. Matt Thorton has 35+ SBG's which prove your thesis. According to Matt Thorton, that is.....

Imagine if instead of forcing students to dig through the Bunkai to find the "hidden techniques", kata were simply removed and students were taught the techniques? Utilize the time you would have spent doing katas on doing drills that actually pertain to your fighting practice.

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Again, so you say. In addition to the Matt Thorton school, there's even MMA schools right in my area who think as you.

In the end, I think you would produce a better student and karateka.

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The traditional karate model says different. One adopted across all kinds of karate styles. The bottom line is few have the mental discipline to do karate as I do. Even K-MAN struggles with it, and he's an expert....

Let me give you an example;

In Judo, leglocks and wrist locks are illegal in competition, and thus tend to not be practiced in live practice (randori). They're now only found in the kata. In Bjj, leg locks and wrist locks are still legal in competition, so are openly practiced in class and live practice (rolling). There is no kata in Bjj.

Guess who's better at leg locks and wrist locks. Guess where people go to learn leg locks and wrist locks. It ain't the Judo dojo.

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I have broached the same issue (posted numerous times @MT) when examining the flaws & drawbacks present in traditional karates, particularly a more basic style such as I practice.
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RE the Judo example, I and others @MT here have stipulated to your point several times. It's a simple decision tree-like mental exercise to broach the issue productively. Your 'branch' of that decision tree re the Judo example, is to choose or go to a BJJ school.
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There's other alternatives.

 

[ShotoNoob]

I see K=MAN has a 2nd cousin....

Ill paraphrase 2 of the 20 principles of Master Funakoshi here that i find will bring more depth to the discussion :

#17 Learn various stances as a beginner but then rely on a natural posture. (regular stances practice will make your natural posture way more balanced)

#18 The kata must always be practiced correctly: real combat is another matter. (yes, coz kata its like a pyctograph, an imprint in time of a group of techniques)

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Gichin Funakoshi was a Karate Master, not a God. All of his teachings can be qualified like any one else.
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#17. This is what everyone pretty much does, either for the right or wrong reasons.... Okinawan karate bias against low stances such as in Goju Ryu is still subject to the principles of stances overall. There's a wider interpretation of traditional karate stances than K=MAN's.
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#18. I believe this is a true statement, yet very vague and unqualified. Kata is so deep & intricate, what exactly is it important to emphasize, what are we really supposed to be focusing on? Funakoshi's #18 is just a rule that say do kata right rather than sloppy or wrong in some way. Not helpful, really.
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"Combat is another matter?" Zero definition of what he is talking about. Again, Funakoshi is merely laying out some very broad distinction between kata & combat. Like obviously.
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As I said about traditional karate, here Shotokan, huge blanks left to be filled by the practitioner... Said that....

 

[ShotoNoob]

K=MAN applies kata progressively using bunaki drills with escalating pressure testing. Sort of ala Matt Thorton's "I" Method.
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K=MAN claims, as an expert karateka, that this builds instinctive skill within a physical form that is effective in SD. I look @ kata through a much broader window.
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I doubt whether other than a small percentage will have the mental discipline to seriously engage in either approach to traditional karate. Hence, the source of failure to successfully apply Shotokan karate for self defense.... So Shotokan detractors, rubbish away.

 

[drop bear]

You guys keep bringing on MMA examples to measure things in this topic and thats produces a distortion on the art concepts. With gloves on, you cant use your hands seiken properly so the energy of the punches are way lost and splashed around the glove area. I will not even talk about rules restriction, that alone will prohibit the most dangerous hand strikes from karate.

We can use Rio heros or nhb if it is easier. Neither use gloves.

 

[drop bear]

K=MAN applies kata progressively using bunaki drills with escalating pressure testing. Sort of ala Matt Thorton's "I" Method.
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K=MAN claims, as an expert karateka, that this builds instinctive skill within a physical form that is effective in SD. I look @ kata through a much broader window.
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I doubt whether other than a small percentage will have the mental discipline to seriously engage in either approach to traditional karate. Hence, the source of failure to successfully apply Shotokan karate for self defense.... So Shotokan detractors, rubbish away.

Why wouldn't shotokan fighters have mental discipline?

How much do you think is actually required?

I mean I know guys who fight and they are 6 to 7 days a week training on top of full time jobs through illness and injury with strict control of food generally zero alcohol and very little free time. And they do this for years.

It is different training but it is definitely a commitment to discipline for those that want results.

 

[Drose427]

Why wouldn't shotokan fighters have mental discipline?

How much do you think is actually required?

I mean I know guys who fight and they are 6 to 7 days a week training on top of full time jobs through illness and injury with strict control of food generally zero alcohol and very little free time. And they do this for years.

It is different training but it is definitely a commitment to discipline for those that want results.

It should be noted that its a simple task to find people from most styles (no idea how the Yellow bamboo guys regard their bodies overall health) with the "fighters disicpline"

Im with you that its hardly a different different kind of commitment or discipline just because the style or purpose is different.

no idea why Shoto thinks Mental and Physical discipline is different because one is karate and one isnt

We can use Rio heros or nhb if it is easier. Neither use gloves.

Well, in NHB and early UFC,s etc. we did see a lot more TMA hand techs,

Palm strikes, kinds of ridge hands, forearm strikes, etc.

and while we havent seen them since gloves, and that many times fighters hands arent aligned properly(connecting with first 2 knuckles in line with forearm), there would be some energy lost just by not being as focused.

That said, I think Rafa is overplaying how how much is lost a bit. Even then, getting into the habit of aligning the hand/wrist is an easy fix.

 

[K-man]

#17. This is what everyone pretty much does, either for the right or wrong reasons.... Okinawan karate bias against low stances such as in Goju Ryu is still subject to the principles of stances overall. There's a wider interpretation of traditional karate stances than K=MAN's.

Not sure what this has to do with me. Goju had a fighting stance called Moto dachi. As to all the other stances, they have their place in grappling. They don't get forgotten or ignored.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Why wouldn't shotokan fighters have mental discipline?

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To quote the MT Administrator-JKS, are you just remembering kata steps, or are you directed at using those kata steps towards some purpose? 64 dollars question, is your purpose in line with traditional martial art principles or are you off course? It's a circular question of always being challenged to understand the principles behind what one is doing....
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to jump to your hardcore audience below, just stressing the body and putting pressure on the mind to very heavy loads with all that training you describe.... is that true to TMA principles, is that toward a beneficial building of martial strengths.... If not, then one is actually comprising the development of SD skills, not increasing them...

How much do you think is actually required?
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In a word, it's alot. Much more than that, it's how you approach the art and it;'s training...

Why wouldn't shotokan fighters have mental discipline?I mean I know guys who fight and they are 6 to 7 days a week training on top of full time jobs through illness and injury with strict control of food generally zero alcohol and very little free time. And they do this for years.

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Wow, you know some hardcore. Yet one of the most accomplished & recognized Shotokan Masters who moved from the JKA to his own organization here in the US (Worldwide reach) warned strictly of the dangers of over training....

Why wouldn't shotokan fighters have mental discipline?It is different training but it is definitely a commitment to discipline for those that want results.

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Right. I see we have a semantically question here, and I was general my use of mental discipline.
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1. The discipline to train intensively, that is what I believe you are speaking too.... this is present in conventional athletic training...
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2. The discipline to look @ the study & practice of Shotokan karate as a mental activity, understanding what that is and changing or evolving from the physically-based training (alluded to in your interpretation above) to training karate where the mental capabilities are developed and made the dominant focus of training.
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3. Employing the capability developed & cultivated in #2 into & as your foundational martial skill, here Shotokan. Being the mentally disciplined fighter. This doesn't mean just being some tough, aggressive-mined guy who can take a punch without crying....
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It means mind & body unity where the mental process controls, not mere reactions or even instincts.
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So to summarize as 3 interpretations of discipinle (described above) can establish & aid one's practice of Shotokan for self defense.
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It's the approach stated in #2 & #3 that make Shotokan come 'alive' the way the Master's intended, IMHO. This is where the Matt Thorton program then fails against the traditional Shotokan karate curriculum, even with all the latter's unattractive qualities...
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Good luck with all this...

 

[ShotoNoob]

Not sure what this has to do with me. Goju had a fighting stance called Moto dachi. As to all the other stances, they have their place in grappling. They don't get forgotten or ignored.

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I thought the information you gave me indicated more emphasis on higher, more natural stances, that's all.

 

[ShotoNoob]

DYNAMIC SHOTOKAN

That said, I think Rafa is overplaying how how much is lost a bit. Even then, getting into the habit of aligning the hand/wrist is an easy fix.

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One theme of RAFA's article that I agree 100% with is how much has been lost, especially when talking about the average practice of Shotokan, including compared to it's early history. Quite a bit is lost. That greatly comprised the application by the average Shotokan karate practitioner for SD. We then see the Hanzou move or preference for something simpler, workable....
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I put some YT vids up of how Shotokan kumite can be dynamic & effective from a foundational perspective. The techniques are certainly Kihon level, nothing advanced. Strong, explosive, precise, on target striking, tactics that change & adapt to the actions &
7 response of the opponent.
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It's doable (not mystical) , takes a much different road than athletic-type training , Matt Thornton "Straight Blast" "Aliveness" mentality....

 

[ShotoNoob]

Matt Thorton's system is good. Matt Bryers combat BJJ is better for SD. Moving to Shotokan, it's not about training yourself under harsh conditions. It's not about repetitive drills that one regurgitates re-actively. It's not about just getting comfortable with resistance or pressure
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It's about moving to a mentally-driven process. It's about developing a mental foundation, then the M&B unity. Takes a while to get there.... quite awhile....
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Shotokan does not provide the greater SD expertise that MT experts here have discussed, the whole concept or science of SD. Shotokan provides a skill base which starts with physical conditioning, physical learning (remembering and repeating steps in kata, whatever); then moves to mental discipline over all aspects of those exercises.
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Good luck with all that....