Shotokan for self defence.

[Hanzou]

Spitting in someone's eye, raking their face with your nails, biting, scratching and nipping are all 'not used in MMA' but shouldn't be discounted for self defence. Houses for courses.

Have you seen many recorded street fights or street beatings? All that stuff you mentioned above is never used either. Why? Because its kind of hard to spit in someone's face when their fist is connecting with your jaw, and its pretty hard to bite someone when your head and body is colliding with the planet after they throw you to the ground.

 

[RafaChan]

The simple reality is that its pretty hard to finger strike someone in the throat or in a "soft spot" if they're punching you in the face. Especially when you've never actually trained yourself to use it in that situation.

You are rite when you say that for most to deliver nukite blows could be hard and tricky, add very hard to a target in motion. Indeed for most persons they would never trade a chance to deliver a regular punch to deliver a finger poke instead. And like you said, it has also to do with another mentality and aproach in your way of fighting and strategies and thats not a thing that happens tru night from day ofc (conditioning). But remember by no means that doesnt invalidate the uselfuness of those techniques.

Shihon nukite in the solar plexus really its not that hard coz most people doesnt defend belly/abdomen lower region of the body like they would apply to defend their face and the neck. Besides that, shihon nukite can gives you more range than a single punch: 3 to 4 inches more generally, and usually thats enough to catch a fleeing face/neck or torso in a place that the regular punch will just miss.

Add to that: the head alone can go back to retreat and evade a strike in a more wide angle that the neck or the torso can without moving your stance. So the neck and plexus will be in range for hits more often than you think.

In most cases ofc, i believe, IMHO, its a strike better suited for when the opponent are not very fast and mobile so you actually can hit in with more safety what you have aimed for. Preferably you will make a devastating effect to apply that (in the neck-throat or plexus) even before the fight begun, if you have that chance, and that i can say to you with 100% sure. Ofc one have to make decisions. Its truly a dangerous technique, i would recommend others to use it in a life or death situation but not in a school fight with your coleague coz you looked so much to his gf.

The better question is why were none thrown in the first place? If its such a high percentage move, we would have seen it being used in such fights to devastating effect.

No event promoter wants to justice govern, public opinion ending their show coz people are getting killed. They will always make conventions and rules to prevent that. You talked about UFC's. All i can say its no body was permitted to hit the neck with such strikes even when it was pride or war of worlds and no matter how much they claimed about being a no rules fight event. Rules always were there you can be sure of that.

The times those techniques were delivered in old kumites in my country, the effects were bad, those still banned from the sport. I can try to research about that when i have the time coz i found this an interesting subject. I know that at least 2 athletes got dead but really dunno if they were by nukite strikes. The only case i know from a nukite blow it was a person that have experienced next to death when his upper trachea collapsed in regional kumite event, and if it was not for a doctor putting a tube on his lower part of the throat for him to breath the guy would just passed away. The doc said that generally only 5 pounds of force could brake the thyroid cartilage an the larynx.

Again, MA aiming for SD and MA for sports can not be measured by the same definition and strategies. Sure they have a lot of techniques and even strategies in common but still its a lot of difference regarding training and conditioning mentality.

I can give you a practice example of that. The time you realize that some of the things you are doing exaustively at the dojo will not serve for you in SD situations maybe you can review some of your points and try to aproach shotokan in a different manner. Not that commercialized manner that doesnt have any focus in SD but only for sports.

I used to practiced some strategies with a BB BJJ work coleague , always with SD in focus not sports. In a particular training session i convinced him to use cervical colar, torso protection gear and protective googles in the training coz i would aim to hit a lot his neck. I was using mostly shihon, tate, omote and ippon nukite at him when i was standed up. And i have managed to hit his neck and eyes with effectiveness more than one time.

When he dropped me to the ground (most of the times mounted on me) i used ippon ken at his neck coz its a short range strike and i have hitted manny times his neck. He is a competent jiu-jitsu fighter he knew that he had to defend his neck but his training conditioning was almost to defend from arm bents and locks he wouldnt expect several ippon ken and hiraken hits at his neck while i forced my way out to a ground and pound. His neck were way too open to attacks when he was trying to grab and lock my arms and hands. Punches from the ground when we are being mounted are not effective coz we cant turn our hips properly to give the punch any expressive power. Its completely uselles to punch when you are not up there mounting and punching with gravity force added. From down there and with such short range and small space you only rely on your fingers and fore knuckle blows on the soft spots when you think of strikes. I watch MMA sports and when i see someone punching while on the ground my mind its already focused on another strategy.

 

[Hanzou]

I can give you a practice example of that. The time you realize that some of the things you are doing exaustively at the dojo will not serve for you in SD situations maybe you can review some of your points and try to aproach shotokan in a different manner. Not that commercialized manner that doesnt have any focus in SD but only for sports.

I used to practiced some strategies with a BB BJJ work coleague , always with SD in focus not sports. In a particular training session i convinced him to use cervical colar, torso protection gear and protective googles in the training coz i would aim to hit a lot his neck. I was using mostly shihon, tate, omote and ippon nukite at him when i was standed up. And i have managed to hit his neck and eyes with effectiveness more than one time.

When he dropped me to the ground (most of the times mounted on me) i used ippon ken at his neck coz its a short range strike and i have hitted manny times his neck. He is a competent jiu-jitsu fighter he knew that he had to defend his neck but his training conditioning was almost to defend from arm bents and locks he wouldnt expect several ippon ken and hiraken hits at his neck while i forced my way out to a ground and pound. His neck were way too open to attacks when he was trying to grab and lock my arms and hands. Punches from the ground when we are being mounted are not effective coz we cant turn our hips properly to give the punch any expressive power. Its completely uselles to punch when you are not up there mounting and punching with gravity force added. From down there and with such short range and small space you only rely on your fingers and fore knuckle blows on the soft spots when you think of strikes. I watch MMA sports and when i see someone punching while on the ground my mind its already focused on another strategy.

And now we've entered the land of pure martial arts fantasy.....

So, you were able to reach his neck while a competent Bjj black belt had you mounted?

Hmmmm.......

So basically what you're saying is that the entire art of grappling can be countered with neck strikes?

 

[RafaChan]

And now we've entered the land of pure martial arts fantasy.....

So, you were able to reach his neck while a competent Bjj black belt had you mounted?

I have some notion at wrist locks enough that could create fast momentum to release a hand and hit his throat. Maybe next time a video footage to make you believe. But im starting to doubt about that or even a IRL footage of someone having the neck crushed will not be enough coz for me it seems you are in state of permanent denial. Really the shotokan dojo that you have attended didnt gave you enough perspective about what tools the style can offer you in a SD situation thats why you keep mocking the style and disbelief what most ppl tells. Maybe i should tell that you have to go and see for yourself and start do this drilling.

So basically what you're saying is that the entire art of grappling can be countered with neck strikes?

There are other conditions involved like if you already have being grabbed or if you are grabbed while standed or if you are on the ground. But given the opportunity if a proper strike to the throat neck could connect yes, the grappler game its pretty over. Maybe not directly countering but enough to finish what will originate of that grappling. It doesnt matter the means just the end. Ofc knowing to counter a grab to freeing an arm/hand its mandatory for that so i would not say purely a strike to the neck alone will counter the whole world of ju-jutsu as i will use a small part of the art to counter that same said art.

In old japan the bushi classes that practiced empty hands combat generally would specialize in striker or grappling arts. Altought they knew an ammount of each world will vary. Its known that some ju jutsu masters of schools from the past gave special attention about fingers strikes and they have developed techniques to broke fingers and wrists so they would neutralize the risk of these kind of attacks. This is a good subject for a big research. The rest you know.

Sorry to burst your big bubble but guess why direct neck/throat/eye strikes rather than locks or arm bents was always prohibited since the first UFC era and war of worlds. They know and always knew the risks. Its not me living in fantasy world.

 

[Hanzou]

I have some notion at wrist locks enough that could create fast momentum to release a hand and hit his throat. Maybe next time a video footage to make you believe. But im starting to doubt about that or even a IRL footage of someone having the neck crushed will not be enough coz for me it seems you are in state of permanent denial. Really the shotokan dojo that you have attended didnt gave you enough perspective about what tools the style can offer you in a SD situation thats why you keep mocking the style and disbelief what most ppl tells. Maybe i should tell that you have to go and see for yourself and start do this drilling.

I think it would help matters if you could show exactly what type of "mount" you were in.

Were you in something like this;

or this;

But yes, some video footage would be most helpful. Frankly if you pulled this off, you're wasting your time on this forum. You should be out there selling your videos to people, because you would literally be making millions of dollars.

Which btw is why I don't believe you.

There are other conditions involved like if you already have being grabbed or if you are grabbed while standed or if you are in the ground. But given the opportunity if a proper strike to the throat neck could connect yes. Maybe not directly countering but enough to finish what will originate of that grappling. It doesnt matter the ways just the end.

Now its "could" connect? I thought you pulled this off against a Bjj blackbelt to get out of his mount and then ground and pound him. Which is it?

 

[RTKDCMB]

There's no need to. If a technique is all but abandoned, then its clearly ineffective.

That is an assumption, one which you do not have any evidence of being true, And who has abandoned it?

It is more likely that the fighters in the early UFC did not use certain techniques because they were used to competing in sporting competitions where those techniques are illegal. Or perhaps they were there to compete and not maim and kill each other.

 

[Hanzou]

That is an assumption, one which you do not have any evidence of being true, And who has abandoned it?

No evidence of being true? Do we have any examples of a fighter winning a match with a finger or knuckle jab to the throat?

t is more likely that the fighters in the early UFC did not use certain techniques because they were used to competing in sporting competitions where those techniques are illegal. Or perhaps they were there to compete and not maim and kill each other.

Well its not just the UFC. That technique is pretty absent in no rules competitions throughout the decades.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Do we have any examples of a fighter winning a match with a finger or knuckle jab to the throat?

Do we have any example of a fighter using a finger or knuckle jab to the throat?

Well its not just the UFC. That technique is pretty absent in no rules competitions throughout the decades.

Not just that technique. And again they are there to compete not maim and kill each other.

 

[Hanzou]

Do we have any example of a fighter using a finger or knuckle jab to the throat?

Yeah, that too.

Not just that technique. And again they are there to compete not maim and kill each other.

No, they're there to win. If jabbing someone in the throat was a reliable way to beat someone, you would see it more often. Throat jabbing isn't just absent in NHB fights, but it's rare/nonexistent in street fights as well. Your entire argument just reeks of the "if we could only use technique X we would be unbeatable" line of thinking.

 

[drop bear]

That is an assumption, one which you do not have any evidence of being true, And who has abandoned it?

It is more likely that the fighters in the early UFC did not use certain techniques because they were used to competing in sporting competitions where those techniques are illegal. Or perhaps they were there to compete and not maim and kill each other.

Ok in an environment where you can knock a guy out standing and still choose to jump on them and rein elbows untill you are pulled off. You are suggesting there is some sort of element of holding back?

 

[drop bear]

Ok. As far as eyegouges,neck chops an other weapons of death. If your basic striking isn't there then you will have limited success.

You can't eat punches in some sort of hope an opportunity to judo chop someone comes along.

Most people are just not equipped to fight like that.

So the issue is not with the technique itself but how it is delivered.

 

[DaveB]

Hello.

As I have a Shotokan background I thought I'd give my two cents. I hope I'm not too far out of sync from the discussion.

Basically what determines effectiveness in any environment is the quality and appropriateness of your training for that environment. Most people seem to accept this well enough. Where I think people get a bit confused is in linking training to specific styles.

Training is independent of fighting style.

Think about it. Is there a style that owns press-ups? How about jogging? Want to be more specific to MA, then what about sparring? Pad work?

When I tried Muay Thai classes I found that there was not one training exercise they did that I had not done in karate first.

So why aren't there hundreds of karateka on video winning UFC? Because the vast majority are simply not interested. People who are interested in full contact competition fighting go to MMA gyms.

Of the minority subset of karateka who are interested in fighting in those kinds of environs, most aren't particularly interested in videoing themselves. Remember this selfie obsession that has people documenting every meal on Facebook is a modern trend and not everyone who can fight is under 30.

Basically if you train it right you can make just about any style work so for those who do Shotokan who want self defense skill, research self defense and see if your training matches your goal.

Usually it doesn't and that means it is up to you to find what is missing and correct it.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Yeah, that too.

That's not an answer.

No, they're there to win. If jabbing someone in the throat was a reliable way to beat someone, you would see it more often. Throat jabbing isn't just absent in NHB fights, but it's rare/nonexistent in street fights as well. Your entire argument just reeks of the "if we could only use technique X we would be unbeatable" line of thinking.

Your entire argument reeks of 'if it's not in MMA than it is useless. You said if something is not used in competitions like the UFC then it is because it is ineffective, well if somethings are ineffective then there would be no need to ban them. Also why the emphasis on throat jabbing? Why jabbing (which would suggest it is just a poke.? There are many techniques that are not used in NHB competitions that can be used for self defense..

 

[RTKDCMB]

Ok. As far as eyegouges,neck chops an other weapons of death. If your basic striking isn't there then you will have limited success

A neck chop is a basic striking technique, it is part of our white belt requirements for every students first promotion.

You can't eat punches in some sort of hope an opportunity to judo chop someone comes along.

Who said anything about eating punches? Eating punches whilst you are hoping to get in a specific technique would be a pretty silly way to do things.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Ok in an environment where you can knock a guy out standing and still choose to jump on them and rein elbows untill you are pulled off. You are suggesting there is some sort of element of holding back?

Yup. They are not stomping on the guys head or groin or stomping on his leg to break it or smashing his head into the floor. They may not be holding back on the force used in those elbows but they are not trying to maim or kill him either.

 

[drop bear]

A neck chop is a basic striking technique, it is part of our white belt requirements for every students first promotion.



Who said anything about eating punches? Eating punches whilst you are hoping to get in a specific technique would be a pretty silly way to do things.

It is quite simple.before you can rely on a neck chop you have to be able to actually hit the guy with anything.

That is not a stationary target. But a real person hitting back.

 

[drop bear]

Yup. They are not stomping on the guys head or groin or stomping on his leg to break it or smashing his head into the floor. They may not be holding back on the force used in those elbows but they are not trying to maim or kill him either.

They do if the rules allow. There are codes that allow head stomps.

 

[RafaChan]

I think it would help matters if you could show exactly what type of "mount" you were in.

If i have the opportunity to make a video footage of this same kind of training session i described you and got permission of my training partner ill share here on this very forum for everyone. That way maybe proving that i can hit the neck/eyes/face/throat with the techniques i told in those mounts and a few others will drag this from mysticism to reality and ill be glad.

But yes, some video footage would be most helpful. Frankly if you pulled this off, you're wasting your time on this forum. You should be out there selling your videos to people, because you would literally be making millions of dollars.

Which btw is why I don't believe you.

I laughed about my millions but its not even funny, and i could not care less. This is where all the discussion tends to walks in circles and leads to nowhere. Ill give you some examples of people that have to follow your advice coz i already have wrote a book called ''How to counter the entire art of grappling with your fingers'' .

How to neutralize a grappler and makes him thinks twice when he attempts to grab you with a single knee strike:

(its on MMA so might be the supreme truth)

We can go on with another example now of grappler vs grappler, from your view that guy now must be rich when he trashed all the grappling art with his sole move:

But nope, no fame or easy money, he got bashed by all the BJJ community this was in my city and the other boy just lost all of his legs and arms movement. Bad way to make a profit i would say.

Done about all of this nonsense and now BT. Really, i doesnt have nothing personal against you but its your use of twisted logic that irritated a lot of the people in this thread. Something like this:

There's no need to. If a technique is all but abandoned, then its clearly ineffective.

First of all, lets clear things, banned doesnt mean the same of abandoned in the context of this very debate. Why in the world they would ban a technique from a competition if this said technique represents no threat for the athletes integrity??? Non sense. Lets keep going...

Do we have any example of a fighter using a finger or knuckle jab to the throat?

Thats enough rite Hanzou? Hard to believe? Maybe valid for you only if it was in MMA? Unreal or is you that are just unable to perform this IRL? Have you ever tried at least hitting the plexus in SD? Coz i did. The boy was lucky coz it was not near a punch with full force, it were just for the matter of obtaining ippon. Those gloves of kumite doesnt allow the fingers to make shihon nukite in pefect alignement but if he reached the opponent throat with that punch what will holding him to reach this same throat with his fingers wich will offer a little more range bare handed? Just nothing...

No, they're there to win. If jabbing someone in the throat was a reliable way to beat someone, you would see it more often. Throat jabbing isn't just absent in NHB fights, but it's rare/nonexistent in street fights as well. Your entire argument just reeks of the "if we could only use technique X we would be unbeatable" line of thinking.

Your twisted logic again. Here you putted rare on the same level of non existant. Back to reality with the correct logic: If something is qualified as rare it doesnt mean that thing doesnt exist in reality. Thats pretty basic. Need more video proofs?

Hes fighting with all the basic spear hand and knife hand shuto attacks and defense. We doesnt see this more often coz like you most people just doesnt believe nor havent seen in MMA.

Well its not just the UFC. That technique is pretty absent in no rules competitions throughout the decades.

I wanna make other thing really clear here in hope that discussion could be fruitfull and lead to somewhere really next to the real SD. I watched those said ''no rules'' competitions since two decades when i still was a teen. I was born in Rio the BJJ and vale tudo mecca and i followed these kind of competitions since it started with war of worlds from vale tudo to pride ufc and manny others and have watched some underground vale tudos and in all of those ''no rules'' competitions the infamous and ''absent'' punches and finger strikes to throat/eyes were always prohibited. Thats why.

My 2 million plz!

 

[RafaChan]

A neck chop is a basic striking technique, it is part of our white belt requirements for every students first promotion.

It is quite simple.before you can rely on a neck chop you have to be able to actually hit the guy with anything.

Shutoken, the knife hands, its a basic tech like rtkdcmb told. We first learn in karate as shuto uke, a defensive strike in heian shodan. All shotokan ukes/blocks are also strikes like shotonoob have stated here in before. In my view its a kind of active/agressive block instead of the more passive/defensive boxer blocks.

From my experience, the shutos neck chops you guys are saying are used more as a counter-attack. Like dropbear said i agree that those cant be just trow out of the window. These technique have to be a response to something, could be an attempt of grappling or a direct attack. I like those vids:

Against grappler:

Against strike:

 

[RTKDCMB]

It is quite simple.before you can rely on a neck chop you have to be able to actually hit the guy with anything.

That is not a stationary target. But a real person hitting back.

Which is why sparring is important to many arts.