Shotokan for self defence.

[Zero]

And so with these super fight ending skills of retired boxers they are not prevented from doing mma knocking guys out and taking some easy money. Just like everyone else who has super fight ending skills.

By the way mark hunt who is a k1 kickboxing champion comes to mind here. Who is doing precisely that. Just without the easy one punch ko,s.

Mark Hunt was and is a crazy Samoan Legend!! Loved that fight a while back with Fedor, had the nerve to try (and almost succeed) to take out Fedor with kimura!! Awesome. And the way he rolled out of Fedor's kimura, 2 or 3 times was intense!!

When Hunt is average, he is average but when he is on the game, he is deadly to anyone - and fun to watch.

 

[Zero]

My coach competed in it. I have sparred using most of the rules I remember.

It does get a bit complicated. Full contact mma point sparring.

Oh, I am not that much of a fan of sport/point fighting, that's why I got out of TKD years back. When you say full contact, that does mean full contact kicks and punches are allowed? And that you can use submissions and takedowns?

So you can win on points or KO (just like MMA or boxing, etc)?

Or does it mean you are also being awarded ippon etc for no contact strikes that do nothing? Then it would become complicated, as you say, as it's a choice to try to work a KO or get in sneaky "clicker/sport" shots with no damaging effect but that add up the tally...

 

[drop bear]

Oh, I am not that much of a fan of sport/point fighting, that's why I got out of TKD years back. When you say full contact, that does mean full contact kicks and punches are allowed? And that you can use submissions and takedowns?

So you can win on points or KO (just like MMA or boxing, etc)?

Or does it mean you are also being awarded ippon etc for no contact strikes that do nothing? Then it would become complicated, as you say, as it's a choice to try to work a KO or get in sneaky "clicker/sport" shots with no damaging effect but that add up the tally...

Yes and no. There are some weird things like feigned puches to the he

 

[drop bear]

Sorry punches to the head that score

 

[Zero]

Sorry punches to the head that score

Understood, thanks for the Intel! Seems like something to at least check out, will see if it is in London, UK... I have been mainly back to stand up fighting recently (which I love in any event) as am waiting on a damaged/strained shoulder to rehab. Can't really go back into mma or focused grappling for now, the shoulder and that arm is a bit vulnerable at the moment so not the best for grappling and ground work but maybe something with a lesser focus with some judo throws/sweeps and submissions allowed I could probably handle until recovered...

 

[RafaChan]

Hello,

I've joined the forum specially coz of that particular thread. Have read it tru all those 60 pages of
clashes, clarifications, confusions, explanations, repetitions and some misunderstandings. I have trained/train
also studied/studying some TMA tru my life and i keep shotokan always with a high respect and regard in my heart,
so i have to raise the flag. I'll do my best trying to be friendly and contribute to all you guys in the best way.
I hope that i can help those who had the interest for the art in the past and now are confused even at its basics
and aplications.

For the others who have knowledge im sorry to repeat things that perhaps you already knows.
Note that english it's not my native language, so feel free to correct me. Also, feel free
to contradict me and/or add in stuff.

Topic wise, shotokan for self defense. Yes, completely. Really dunno why some people wanna disagree
with that in some manner. But i feel that before justify the WHY of my assertive, i wanna try to tell
a long story in a very fast way...

The essence of shotokan karate is shorin ryu. Kara-te, was known as shaolin hands techniques, karate jutsu
it was a kind of kobudo practiced originally by the bushi class in the okinawa islands a long time ago. A martial art style developed and
evolved tru a weapon ban decree context for the mainly purpose of self defense, resist, survive and war.
An art that also have born via cross training of old arts (okinawate=tode=kamaia sut-su and shaolin chuan fa styles).

You see now how pointless is to criticize or made amendments about what MA is cross training MMA or not? The idea of
MMA was always implied in most TMA around the world and thats how they happens to sometimes modify or evolve.

Shotokan was made of a cross training of chinese-japanese striker arts, how do you see that?
Note that im talking about MMA not the combative sport context of what we see today. Combative sports contexts are always
restrictive about what one can do or perform within the completion of your practiced MA system, the gloves and rules
can limit you a lot when we talk about SD real fight situations, so i find that pointless to trow it here.
I always told my friends in the past, vale tudo doesnt vale tudo, thats not this thing of no rules.

Master Funakoshi base foundation for shotokan was shorin ryu of grand master Matsumura, karate was known as shurite, a style developed in the
middle 1800s responsible to the big body mechanical changes of the chinese influences on the style. In the book Shotokan Secrets you
can find a more technical explanation for that:

"The new art, called shurite, was fundamentally different from traditional chuan fa. Compared to chinese fighting,
the new art was shockingly ruthless. The new style made no attempt to subdue the opponent through painful nerve
strikes or immobilizing joint locks. Instead, every element of the new art emphasized destroying the opponent
completely in one or two seconds."

The one hit KO mentality in karate its true. Thats ikken hissatsu / ippon kowashi. It doesnt mean all the fights
have to end with just one blow but thats something all karate-ka wants to achieve. I mean, karate-ka have to fight
moved by this intention, thats spirit. This is not the same as ippon-sanbon Kumites fashioned concept like one point/kill
but its the same principle that have remained within the art tru its sportive ways. Thats really a true tradition,
thats the true karate jutsu spirit. In japanese kuden, oral tradition tells that we have to train strenght,
technique and spirit, thats karate-do. Technique can win strenght but spirit can wins technique. In
a clash of both skilled and strenght opponents, chances are that the one with the right intention and spirit
will win. Thats when someone achieve mushin having complete awareness, sense of space-range, timing and an empty
relaxed mind able to create the right momentum via attack or counter attack.

Im posting a very illustrative video for those who wish to comprehend the ideas exclusively by those means, and coz thats
a very nice video that ive found:

Thats just to illustrate the spirit. Objective here its the look about shotokan in a SD situation and not sports after all.
One can say that one-KO Gyaku Zuki on the video was unreal and not aplicable on a SD situation but i just dont know how, ill not the one
to put my face in there to see if its real, will you?

Shotokan, shito ryu, wado ryu and many others TMA can give you all the tools you need for a SD situation, im pretty sure of that.
You dont need to train MMA sports or be a BJJ expert to deal with that and neglect the other arts. As a lot of people really told
here and knows, ground techniques are not prefered at SD situations when you have to be very quick and maybe run, or have to face
more than one assailant. For that matter and as a brazilian that still practice BJJ somtimes i can tell you BJJ will non practical.
Of course in most 1x1 situations BJJ can really shines against the regular guy on the street or against the trained stand up striker, but
if the striker have some knowledge about to aplly joint lock counters and defend against grappling thats another story and
you will have to sweat or even admit defeat! Thats another story, i wanna remain on topic. Ill post another vid, specially for those who need
to believe in things just if it have being video recorded:

Bad SD scenario, 2 pro MMA fighters against 3 guys. Intense training, hours of free spar and ground techniques. Despite that they being completely
being ++holes with the girls they even had a chance of apply their JJ expertise. Too much 1x1 fighting conditioning, too
much tunnel vision for me. Im not saying spar its useless for SD, i spar! I free spar also in karate sometimes with protective
gear. Its very good to work on timing, space-range notions, evasive manuevers, blocks,counter attacks, combo attacks, etc...
Really a lot of good things that you can use in SD situations. But remember, forget about gloves, the intense usage of gloves to defend your
face too much like hiding behind the gloves and such.

In a SD worst case scenario against multiple assailants you will need to rely preferable on a stand up striker art,
something around these lines:

Theres another vids with some IRL SD scenarios interesting to watch:

Gotta go for now, i really wanna keep posting and say more about some specific techniques and methods in shotokan
that are really for use in SD scenarios. And most important, got some serious stuff to say about kata.
Really, people that dont understand kata tend to talk bad about those i was one of them.
To be continued...Cya.

 

[K-man]

Hello,

I've joined the forum specially coz of that particular thread. Have read it tru all those 60 pages of
clashes, clarifications, confusions, explanations, repetitions and some misunderstandings. I have trained/train
also studied/studying some TMA tru my life and i keep shotokan always with a high respect and regard in my heart,
so i have to raise the flag. I'll do my best trying to be friendly and contribute to all you guys in the best way.
I hope that i can help those who had the interest for the art in the past and now are confused even at its basics
and aplications.

For the others who have knowledge im sorry to repeat things that perhaps you already knows.
Note that english it's not my native language, so feel free to correct me. Also, feel free
to contradict me and/or add in stuff.

Topic wise, shotokan for self defense. Yes, completely. Really dunno why some people wanna disagree
with that in some manner. But i feel that before justify the WHY of my assertive, i wanna try to tell
a long story in a very fast way...

The essence of shotokan karate is shorin ryu. Kara-te, was known as shaolin hands techniques, karate jutsu
it was a kind of kobudo practiced originally by the bushi class in the okinawa islands a long time ago. A martial art style developed and
evolved tru a weapon ban decree context for the mainly purpose of self defense, resist, survive and war.
An art that also have born via cross training of old arts (okinawate=tode=kamaia sut-su and shaolin chuan fa styles).

You see now how pointless is to criticize or made amendments about what MA is cross training MMA or not? The idea of
MMA was always implied in most TMA around the world and thats how they happens to sometimes modify or evolve.

Shotokan was made of a cross training of chinese-japanese striker arts, how do you see that?
Note that im talking about MMA not the combative sport context of what we see today. Combative sports contexts are always
restrictive about what one can do or perform within the completion of your practiced MA system, the gloves and rules
can limit you a lot when we talk about SD real fight situations, so i find that pointless to trow it here.
I always told my friends in the past, vale tudo doesnt vale tudo, thats not this thing of no rules.

Master Funakoshi base foundation for shotokan was shorin ryu of grand master Matsumura, karate was known as shurite, a style developed in the
middle 1800s responsible to the big body mechanical changes of the chinese influences on the style. In the book Shotokan Secrets you
can find a more technical explanation for that:

"The new art, called shurite, was fundamentally different from traditional chuan fa. Compared to chinese fighting,
the new art was shockingly ruthless. The new style made no attempt to subdue the opponent through painful nerve
strikes or immobilizing joint locks. Instead, every element of the new art emphasized destroying the opponent
completely in one or two seconds."

The one hit KO mentality in karate its true. Thats ikken hissatsu / ippon kowashi. It doesnt mean all the fights
have to end with just one blow but thats something all karate-ka wants to achieve. I mean, karate-ka have to fight
moved by this intention, thats spirit. This is not the same as ippon-sanbon Kumites fashioned concept like one point/kill
but its the same principle that have remained within the art tru its sportive ways. Thats really a true tradition,
thats the true karate jutsu spirit. In japanese kuden, oral tradition tells that we have to train strenght,
technique and spirit, thats karate-do. Technique can win strenght but spirit can wins technique. In
a clash of both skilled and strenght opponents, chances are that the one with the right intention and spirit
will win. Thats when someone achieve mushin having complete awareness, sense of space-range, timing and an empty
relaxed mind able to create the right momentum via attack or counter attack.

Im posting a very illustrative video for those who wish to comprehend the ideas exclusively by those means, and coz thats
a very nice video that ive found:

Thats just to illustrate the spirit. Objective here its the look about shotokan in a SD situation and not sports after all.
One can say that one-KO Gyaku Zuki on the video was unreal and not aplicable on a SD situation but i just dont know how, ill not the one
to put my face in there to see if its real, will you?

Shotokan, shito ryu, wado ryu and many others TMA can give you all the tools you need for a SD situation, im pretty sure of that.
You dont need to train MMA sports or be a BJJ expert to deal with that and neglect the other arts. As a lot of people really told
here and knows, ground techniques are not prefered at SD situations when you have to be very quick and maybe run, or have to face
more than one assailant. For that matter and as a brazilian that still practice BJJ somtimes i can tell you BJJ will non practical.
Of course in most 1x1 situations BJJ can really shines against the regular guy on the street or against the trained stand up striker, but
if the striker have some knowledge about to aplly joint lock counters and defend against grappling thats another story and
you will have to sweat or even admit defeat! Thats another story, i wanna remain on topic. Ill post another vid, specially for those who need
to believe in things just if it have being video recorded:

Bad SD scenario, 2 pro MMA fighters against 3 guys. Intense training, hours of free spar and ground techniques. Despite that they being completely
being ++holes with the girls they even had a chance of apply their JJ expertise. Too much 1x1 fighting conditioning, too
much tunnel vision for me. Im not saying spar its useless for SD, i spar! I free spar also in karate sometimes with protective
gear. Its very good to work on timing, space-range notions, evasive manuevers, blocks,counter attacks, combo attacks, etc...
Really a lot of good things that you can use in SD situations. But remember, forget about gloves, the intense usage of gloves to defend your
face too much like hiding behind the gloves and such.

In a SD worst case scenario against multiple assailants you will need to rely preferable on a stand up striker art,
something around these lines:

Theres another vids with some IRL SD scenarios interesting to watch:

Gotta go for now, i really wanna keep posting and say more about some specific techniques and methods in shotokan
that are really for use in SD scenarios. And most important, got some serious stuff to say about kata.
Really, people that dont understand kata tend to talk bad about those i was one of them.
To be continued...Cya.

Welcome to MT and thank you for contributing to this thread. By reading the 60 odd pages, a fine effort on anyone's part, you have certainly put in the hard yards and you will be aware, some members have a less than favourable opinion of Karate, or many other styles also.

Might I suggest that you start a new thread to discuss your SD scenarios and kata. I'll look forward to reading your posts.

 

[RafaChan]

Thank you mate for the idea and advice. I'll make this so people can keep discussing in a more focused way about that without skip off topic.
Also, i'll review my text trying to be the clearest and cleanest i can to express ideas better and to avoid generate confusion about karate.
I hope we can share knowledge in the best way! Cya...

 

[Hanzou]

You dont need to train MMA sports or be a BJJ expert to deal with that and neglect the other arts. As a lot of people really told
here and knows,

No one is "neglecting" other arts. People are simply tired of the nonsense associated with other arts like Karate, and prefer something a bit more straight forward.

ground techniques are not prefered at SD situations when you have to be very quick and maybe run, or have to face
more than one assailant. For that matter and as a brazilian that still practice BJJ somtimes i can tell you BJJ will non practical.
Of course in most 1x1 situations BJJ can really shines against the regular guy on the street or against the trained stand up striker, but
if the striker have some knowledge about to aplly joint lock counters and defend against grappling thats another story and
you will have to sweat or even admit defeat! Thats another story, i wanna remain on topic.

This is quite an amusing stereotype. Bjj is essentially Judo with the training wheels taken off. You're going to learn throws, takedowns, strikes, standing chokes, standing locks, tumbling, and plenty of other things that will help you in a street fight, not just ground fighting.

Example;
Don t Be A Statistic - SHAPE CHANGESHAPE CHANGE

Ground fighting is an (great) option, but it isn't all that we do.

 

[RafaChan]

No one is "neglecting" other arts. People are simply tired of the nonsense associated with other arts like Karate

I think you mean about non sense some bunkai people have showned here rite?

If you tell me someone is exaggerating or maybe getting a move out from another art and its using that in bunkai telling that move its from a karate kata i can maybe agree with you.

But like it or not, straight forward or not, bunkai its real and thats some rare moments in MA that when a technique can gain a bit more depht and the practitioners are open to be creative by their own.

If you really dont believe in bunkai at all and call it non sense so yes you are negleting a big part of an art and i strongly recommend you to visit a competent dojo to see for yourself.

This is quite an amusing stereotype. Bjj is essentially Judo

Master Helio Gracie created BJJ with all Judo techniques in essence thats true, but in reality giving a lot more emphasys to develop the ground techniques coz he was small and thin to compete against taller and bigger judokas. Stereotype or not, that alone cant invalidate what ive told about BJJ not being practical in a SD scenario with more than one assailant. You know a lot of stereotypes are based uppon factible statistics rite?

You show me a video thats telling me most street fights goes to the ground and thats why people have to look for a gracie academy. Thats ironic but you have just confirmed what you accused being stereotyped. Besides that, the SD action against 2 assailants on the video being coreographed when at same time tru this entire thread you have been a hard critic against any kind of coreographed or artificial move against non resistant opponents.

That statistic with any factible stereotyped idea included will be more like: When most unskilled and untrained people street fight that fight tend to turns to a ground fight. So then, ok, now i can agree...

Peace!

 

[Steve]

Helio Gracie created BJJ? Huh. That I did not know. I thought it was his older brother, Carlos, who learned from Mitsuyo Maeda.

 

[RafaChan]

Master Maeda taught master Carlos the Judo of grandmaster Jigoro Kano. Helio learnt Judo from Carlos and his main focus was the study, practice, development tru complete immersion on ne waza ground techniques. Helio is the father of BJJ. Judo with great ne waza emphasys. I think 90% ne waza if not more.

Master Jigoro Kano also taught Judo to master Funakoshi and he brought to his karate some nage waza techniques with takedowns, trows and even some standed joint locks.

Besides that master Funakoshi already knews a lot of gotende techniques thats the shuri okinawan ju jutsu.

 

[Hanzou]

I think you mean about non sense some bunkai people have showned here rite?

If you tell me someone is exaggerating or maybe getting a move out from another art and its using that in bunkai telling that move its from a karate kata i can maybe agree with you.

But like it or not, straight forward or not, bunkai its real and thats some rare moments in MA that when a technique can gain a bit more depht and the practitioners are open to be creative by their own.

If you really dont believe in bunkai at all and call it non sense so yes you are negleting a big part of an art and i strongly recommend you to visit a competent dojo to see for yourself.

"Real" in what sense?

It's certainly "real" in the sense that there's this thing called bunkai that karatekas claim is the key to, and the purpose behind training their katas. The lack of straightforwardness occurs when someone points out that karatekas don't fight like their katas, or utilize techniques from their katas in competition, sparring, and more than likely fighting itself.

I personally view kata as an obsolete exercise. A relic from a bygone era that lacked printing, instant communication, organized MA associations, etc. There's plenty of MAs today that are perfectly competent and effective that teach no kata/forms whatsoever.

Master Helio Gracie created BJJ with all Judo techniques in essence thats true, but in reality giving a lot more emphasys to develop the ground techniques coz he was small and thin to compete against taller and bigger judokas. Stereotype or not, that alone cant invalidate what ive told about BJJ not being practical in a SD scenario with more than one assailant. You know a lot of stereotypes are based uppon factible statistics rite?

And you have verifiable statistics regarding Bjj street fighting in multiple assailant situations?
Please share.

Either way, that wasn't the point. The point is that Bjj isn't all about ground fighting, and any competent Bjj academy will teach you how to fight from your feet, from your knees, from your back, from your side, etc.

You show me a video thats telling me most street fights goes to the ground and thats why people have to look for a gracie academy. Thats ironic but you have just confirmed what you accused being stereotyped. Besides that, the SD action against 2 assailants on the video being coreographed when at same time tru this entire thread you have been a hard critic against any kind of coreographed or artificial move against non resistant opponents.

I was merely showing a version of how a Bjj student COULD use techniques learned in Bjj in a multiple assailant situation. Multiple assailant situations are fairly rare, and a skilled martial artist caught in a multiple assailant situation on video is even more rare.

That statistic with any factible stereotyped idea included will be more like: When most unskilled and untrained people street fight that fight tend to turns to a ground fight. So then, ok, now i can agree...

Peace!

It isn't just the unskilled and untrained...

Two skilled practitioners end up on the ground;

 

[Steve]

Master Maeda taught master Carlos the Judo of grandmaster Jigoro Kano. Helio learnt Judo from Carlos and his main focus was the study, practice, development tru complete immersion on ne waza ground techniques. Helio is the father of BJJ. Judo with great ne waza emphasys. I think 90% ne waza if not more.

Master Jigoro Kano also taught Judo to master Funakoshi and he brought to his karate some nage waza techniques with takedowns, trows and even some standed joint locks.

Besides that master Funakoshi already knews a lot of gotende techniques thats the shuri okinawan ju jutsu.

I would say that there are a lot of people out there who were there who would disagree. Most of them probably train with descendants of Carlos Gracie Sr., including the massive number of elite black belts who traing with Carlinhos, Carlos Gracie Jr, the president of the IBJJF and the largest BJJ organization by far, Gracie Barra.

 

[ShotoNoob]

That critic would probably be me. If you still don't understand what I was referring to I would suggest it just isn't going to happen, but don't worry. You have a few friends here in the same boat.
Hmm! I thought it was my OP but there you go.

I have never objected to interesting and relevant thread drift. I do object strenuously when my threads are hijacked. When someone has no knowledge of bukai and no interest in developing an understanding, I question the value of that person's contribution when we are discussing bunkai.

|
Steve, I wasn't directing that KATA comment to you personally. It's just been my experience sometimes here@MT when trying to bring examples of principles from TMA styles or karate-related styles that may shed light on the issue of some, maybe to you....
|
There's very large number of TMA practitioners in my area who look askance at kata, how it relates to fighting.
\
There are explanations beside mine (others) out there, if you research traditional karate.
|
However, I can agree that there are many generalizations and summarizing or descriptions of kata that do not answer the question of fighting with clarity & specificity, where the theory is amply explained. This is especially true in many karate manuals, to use Tang Soo Do, IMO, where I had picked up a text on hyung.
|
Kata is typically presented as a conundrum left to the practitioner to figure out. Then again, you have a karate school like K-Man where kata is integrated into drilling bunkai & kata applications

 

[ShotoNoob]

Master Maeda taught master Carlos the Judo of grandmaster Jigoro Kano. Helio learnt Judo from Carlos and his main focus was the study, practice, development tru complete immersion on ne waza ground techniques. Helio is the father of BJJ. Judo with great ne waza emphasys. I think 90% ne waza if not more....

|
I went to what appears to be the official Gracie BJJ site. Both you & Steve have the lineage correct (according to that site), it's how BJJ was born that you have pointed to.
|
According to the site, Helio was frail physically and found some of the techniques which his older brothers taught (headed by Carlos) too difficult to execute. The older brothers were teaching the Jiu-Jitsu (Judo?) they had learned from Maeda[?] who had emigrated to Brazil.
|
Helio, on his own & at the Gracie dojo, studied & developed the now popular BJJ. The site claims that Helio essentially took over the lead in training because the students found his adaptation of technique & version of Jiu-Jitsu more favorable. The site reports that Helio proved the efficacy of his BJJ against a wide range of competitors, including physically much larger ones....
|
Because of Helio's success & acceptance, the Helio-version of BJJ became popularized & later formalized as BJJ.
|
This is paraphrased from the Gracie Jiu-Jitsu Academy website....

 

[RafaChan]

I would say that there are a lot of people out there who were there who would disagree

So ive gotta say that theres a lot of people out there, even practitioners, assuming misleadings and misconceptions as truth. Check this out:

07:40 if the people you know out there its claiming that the carlos created BJJ, so gracie family members are telling lies about theirselves.

You know that carlos its helio oldest brother rite? And that Carlos was judo-ju jutsu pioneer, the first brazilian to learn JJJ. But BJJ came with helio. Thats pretty clear to all BJJ community here.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Hey, I fight "goobers" and win.... So, let me just paraphrase the RafaChan 'Shotokan karate manual-thesis' above....

It isn't just the unskilled and untrained...

Any body can end up on the ground.

Two skilled practitioners end up on the ground;

|
The thrust of the RafaChan SHOTOKAN KUMITE technique video's put up in the manual ARE:

...That one opponent goes to the ground, and rather quickly & expeditiously.
|
BTW: in honor of K-Man, we see some grappling/ bunkai-like maneuver on the part of the victorious competitor. Shotokan practitioners are not limited to the convention Machida uses so often of numerous reverse punches (the last of which whoosed right by Rockhold a miss.).
|
The conventions of popular Shotokan kumite point fighting for sport do not define the Shotokan curriculum or the it's kumite style proper....

 

[ShotoNoob]

ON Above, note that the victorious competitor didn't fall apart just because the competition moved to infighting range. Again, those who practice Shotokan kumite like it is some reactively speed-dart-in & out robotic model are practicing some popularized conventions & when learning such..... NOT the Shotokan curriculum proper......

 

[ShotoNoob]

So Shotokan Karate re Ground Fighting, the primary thrust of Ground Fighting in Shotokan is that you are so good at the art described in the RafaChan Piece, that the opponent ends up on the ground disabled and you are still standing. That's it.