Shotokan for self defence.

[Steve]

This is exactly what we're talking about.

We havent said ANYTHING along the lines of "Shotokan vs MMA for realism".

We've all said that that both Shotokan and MMA give you the tools to get the job done, But they arent some equivalent for a Life Threatening situation.

Not a single person here has claimed Shotokan to be super realistic, youre reaching for words we havent said.

Frankly no ring match (if anything even can be) is.

It's like than SOI is equal to actual combat.

Stop getting defensive about the style v style and method v method and just read what we're saying.

I don't know if you're responding to Drop Bear or me. Speaking for myself, I'm reading what you're writing, and I appreciate the clarification.

I do wnat to point out that NOTHING is equivalent to a life threatening situation but an actual, life threatening situation. Sales pitch aside, no training can provide an equivalent experience unless they can ACTUALLY make you believe your life is in danger.

If we agree on the above statement, then we are really discussing a spectrum where on one side, we are training in La La land, and on the other, we are training in a focused, self defense curriculum that incorporates scenario based exercises, legal and logistical training, interpersonal/communications training to include deescalation and all manner of other things. Given that, where does a ring match fall? I don't know what Shotokan looks like, but I'm familiar with MMA. In one area of self defense, the actual fighting part of it, the disadvantages are easily overcome and the advantages are numerous.

I used the term 'ring match' because it covers both Shotokan and MMA and any other combat sport you might care to mention.

My point was, those 'ancillary' aspects are examples of what needs to be added to make whatever curriculum suitable and practical for use in self defence.

Without them, one has a toolbox full of combative techniques, but not much else.

Not much value in training for a lifetime if in your first confrontation you end up getting stabbed / getting put away for manslaughter / culpable homicide / grievous bodily harm / assault and battery.

Unless one's training encompasses those specifics of self defence and is tailored to the local circumstances, the combative toolkit is likely to be as much of a hindrance as a help. Regardless of art or sport. But we've been around this track a couple of times already.

I'm with you up until the end. We can agree on every one of your statements up until you conclude "is likely to be as much of a hindrance as a help." I don't agree that knowing how to fight makes one less capable of self defense, or even that it is neutral, as you suggest. That conclusion is not supported. What we can agree is that in addition to knowing how to fight, one should also have solid decision making and critical thinking skills. The decision of whether to fight or not is about decision making and critical thinking, independent of skill as a fighter. While these are things that can be improved upon, the fact is, some people are good at decision making and critical thinking, and others are not.

 

[drop bear]

Already covered Physically Ability, Psychologically Impact, real life threatening danger and how they connect. In this thread and in others.

Thats the point youre missing.

You seem to be suggesting that all things being equal Shotokan punch that works in the ring would not work under the same conditions if the other guy wanted to kill you.

 

[Drose427]

I don't know if you're responding to Drop Bear or me. Speaking for myself, I'm reading what you're writing, and I appreciate the clarification.

I do wnat to point out that NOTHING is equivalent to a life threatening situation but an actual, life threatening situation. Sales pitch aside, no training can provide an equivalent experience unless they can ACTUALLY make you believe your life is in danger.

If we agree on the above statement, then we are really discussing a spectrum where on one side, we are training in La La land, and on the other, we are training in a focused, self defense curriculum that incorporates scenario based exercises, legal and logistical training, interpersonal/communications training to include deescalation and all manner of other things. Given that, where does a ring match fall? I don't know what Shotokan looks like, but I'm familiar with MMA. In one area of self defense, the actual fighting part of it, the disadvantages are easily overcome and the advantages are numerous.

I'm with you up until the end. We can agree on every one of your statements up until you conclude "is likely to be as much of a hindrance as a help." I don't agree that knowing how to fight makes one less capable of self defense. That conclusion is not supported. What we can agree is that in addition to knowing how to fight, one should also have solid decision making and critical thinking skills. The decision of whether to fight or not is about decision making and critical thinking, independent of skill as a fighter. While these are things that can be improved upon, the fact is, some people are good at decision making and critical thinking, and others are not.

I think we are actually in agreement in that NOTHING recreates a life threatening SD.

Both MMA and Shotokan will give you the tools, the mechanics, and Physcial abilitty.

But neither are the same psychologically, which is something you cant really teach. You dont know how youll react unless your life is truly in danger.

One example I gave drop bear (while not a perfect translation) are the guys you see in the gym\wrestling team who perform well at practice or inter school scrimmages, but when theres real pressure like a match, they choke.

In other post, i believe it was you who said training is about increasing odds more than anything, which I agree with completely.

You simply cant recreate a real SD situation or its pressure, short of maiming someone or worse.

No form of competitive match, or drill is really equivalent. We can come kinda close, but that blankets always gonna have to be there unless you plan on going out and fighting strangers till you get jailed or killed.

Thats the point I originally made to drop bear, who has shown to believe otherwise.

 

[Drose427]

You seem to be suggesting that all things being equal Shotokan punch that works in the ring would not work under the same conditions if the other guy wanted to kill you.

Again, no thats not what ive said at all.

Figuratively, literally, by implication, or even remotely close wording.

 

[Steve]

I think we are actually in agreement in that NOTHING recreates a life threatening SD.

Both MMA and Shotokan will give you the tools, the mechanics, and Physcial abilitty.

But neither are the same psychologically, which is something you cant really teach. You dont know how youll react unless your life is truly in danger.

One example I gave drop bear (while not a perfect translation) are the guys you see in the gym\wrestling team who perform well at practice or inter school scrimmages, but when theres real pressure like a match, they choke.

In other post, i believe it was you who said training is about increasing odds more than anything, which I agree with completely.

You simply cant recreate a real SD situation or its pressure, short of maiming someone or worse.

No form of competitive match, or drill is really equivalent. We can come kinda close, but that blankets always gonna have to be there unless you plan on going out and fighting strangers till you get jailed or killed.

Thats the point I originally made to drop bear, who has shown to believe otherwise.

I think we're close! I bolded one statement above, though. I would say that the guys who perform well in practice but choke under pressure are improving their odds of performing well in a life threatening situation precisely because they're pushing themselves. If you are never outside of your comfort zone, you are not growing. The guys who choke in a competition have a lower threshold for pressure than others. With experience, they will choke less and choke less often.

 

[drop bear]

Again, no thats not what ive said at all.

Figuratively, literally, by implication, or even remotely close wording.

Ok then the same punch will work in the ring or in a life and death situation?

 

[Drose427]

Ok then the same punch will work in the ring or in a life and death situation?

Again youve missed the point.

The bullet a soldier puts down range on base will be the same as the on in combat.

That doesnt make target practice a firefight.

They practice firefighting with electronic adapters to their body and rifles knowing their instructors will tear them a new one if they fail or get killed. They could go through SOI and never get killed in these pressured sims. But that isnt the same as combat.

Fireman training involves mock burning buildings rigged with saftey devices. Yeah theres fire, but they still arent the same as running into a burning/collapsing building.

Paramedics, interns, ER nurses, Doctors, all are pressured to keep calm and do things perfectly, be they simple sutures, finding veins, surgery, etc. But some still panic, and people die.

Your technique may be the same, but the situation simply isnt. You cant recreate that.

 

[Gnarlie]

I don't know if you're responding to Drop Bear or me. Speaking for myself, I'm reading what you're writing, and I appreciate the clarification.

I do wnat to point out that NOTHING is equivalent to a life threatening situation but an actual, life threatening situation. Sales pitch aside, no training can provide an equivalent experience unless they can ACTUALLY make you believe your life is in danger.

If we agree on the above statement, then we are really discussing a spectrum where on one side, we are training in La La land, and on the other, we are training in a focused, self defense curriculum that incorporates scenario based exercises, legal and logistical training, interpersonal/communications training to include deescalation and all manner of other things. Given that, where does a ring match fall? I don't know what Shotokan looks like, but I'm familiar with MMA. In one area of self defense, the actual fighting part of it, the disadvantages are easily overcome and the advantages are numerous.

I'm with you up until the end. We can agree on every one of your statements up until you conclude "is likely to be as much of a hindrance as a help." I don't agree that knowing how to fight makes one less capable of self defense, or even that it is neutral, as you suggest. That conclusion is not supported. What we can agree is that in addition to knowing how to fight, one should also have solid decision making and critical thinking skills. The decision of whether to fight or not is about decision making and critical thinking, independent of skill as a fighter. While these are things that can be improved upon, the fact is, some people are good at decision making and critical thinking, and others are not.

Yep. What I mean by hindrance is that it would be easy to land yourself in a world of legal and emotional aftermath without the right knowledge and training to support the use of martial tools.

 

[Steve]

Yep. What I mean by hindrance is that it would be easy to land yourself in a world of legal and emotional aftermath without the right knowledge and training to support the use of martial tools.

Thanks again for the clarification. Thsi is a perfect example of hashing things out until we understand each other. I thought we were talking about a "life threatening situation", in which the legal and emotional aftermath is only relevant if you survive. Knowledge of the laws doesn't help if you don't survive the encounter. I have in mind a guy saying, "Hey! Stop punching me. That's assault and it's illegal, not to mention rude!" (meant to be lighthearted and not snarky!)

Point being, there are aspects of self defense up to and following a physical altercation. But knowing how to fight certainly helps with the altercation part. And MMA (and maybe also Shotokon) is certainly helpful (and not a hindrance) with at least that one part of it.

 

[Gnarlie]

Thanks again for the clarification. Thsi is a perfect example of hashing things out until we understand each other. I thought we were talking about a "life threatening situation", in which the legal and emotional aftermath is only relevant if you survive. Knowledge of the laws doesn't help if you don't survive the encounter. I have in mind a guy saying, "Hey! Stop punching me. That's assault and it's illegal, not to mention rude!"

Point being, there are aspects of self defense up to and following a physical altercation. But knowing how to fight certainly helps with the altercation part. And MMA (and maybe also Shotokon) is certainly helpful (and not a hindrance) with at least that one part of it.

Even in the altercation part, it is important to know when to start, and where to stop, and what you might be dealing with.

That's different in every city and every country.

Capetown. Sharpened bicycle spoke popular shiv weapon, legal implications follow use of the fist, palm heels might be a good idea, and keeping some distance.

Stuttgart. Blade and firearm crime fairly unusual as carried offensive weapons heavily controlled. Violence unusual and most often alcohol related. Serious repercussions for use of kicks, especially for use against a compromised opponent.

I'd adjust my approach to preemption and what I might leave in the toolbox and what I might bring out.

 

[Steve]

Even in the altercation part, it is important to know when to start, and where to stop, and what you might be dealing with.

That's different in every city and every country.

Capetown. Sharpened bicycle spoke popular shiv weapon, legal implications follow use of the fist, palm heels might be a good idea, and keeping some distance.

Stuttgart. Blade and firearm crime fairly unusual as carried offensive weapons heavily controlled. Violence unusual and most often alcohol related. Serious repercussions for use of kicks, especially for use against a compromised opponent.

I'd adjust my approach to preemption and what I might leave in the toolbox and what I might bring out.

AND if you don't survive a "life threatening" encounter, the above is entirely moot. For some reason, i think we're talking past one another. Can't we agree that if you are dead, it won't matter whether you used a palm heel, a blade or a floppy fish to defend yourself? Can't we also agree that knowing how to intelligently defend oneself in a physical altercation is ALWAYS preferable to not knowing how to intelligently defend oneself?

 

[Gnarlie]

AND if you don't survive a "life threatening" encounter, the above is entirely moot. For some reason, i think we're talking past one another. Can't we agree that if you are dead, it won't matter whether you used a palm heel, a blade or a floppy fish to defend yourself? Can't we also agree that knowing how to intelligently defend oneself in a physical altercation is ALWAYS preferable to not knowing how to intelligently defend oneself?

Yes, I do agree - but I am also saying there is loads before and after to limit damage, or even avoid the situation. No sport or 'do' art really gets into that. So on topic, Shotokan for SD, yes as much as whatever other MA or combat sport, but all of them require supplementary material.

 

[Steve]

Yes, I do agree - but I am also saying there is loads before and after to limit damage, or even avoid the situation. No sport or 'do' art really gets into that. So on topic, Shotokan for SD, yes as much as whatever other MA or combat sport, but all of them require supplementary material.

Alright!

 

[ShotoNoob]

You give credit to Rockhold's preparation then go on and say this, you don't think that if you were matched against him they would also do some prep?

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How do you prep for higher principles than AKA trains? The whole concept of traditional karate is a state of "mental clarity," mental discipline that overwhelms the physically powerful, even mindful such as Rockhold. AKA does not train to the standards of traditional karate. That's it.
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They would and they would plan out the best way to beat you so saying you wouldn't lose because you don't fight like Machida is an empty boast.

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Well if it is an empty boast, it's empty over the internet for sure. Your thinking presumes that Rockhold's pressure fighting should be of concern to me & it is. It's also a concern that's addressed by Ippon Kumite, precisely & specifically.
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Every fighter is different, and this still have nothing to do with Shotokan and self defence. I would dare suggest that if attacked on the street Machida would certainly have fought differently and with more conviction...as we all would. You can't compare Shotokan's self defence techniques with one man's fighting style in one fight on one night.

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That's the beauty of principles as opposed to the conventional martial art thingking-way of matching specific physical techniques to circumstances. My thought process is the same logic that bukai represent principles or alternatives, not just the exact motion shown in the kata. Experts here @ MT have spoken to this concept many a time....
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So I am talking about a traditoinal martial approach to self defense, not just "Shotokan" or a specific self defense scenario.... Others / experts
can do that latter here better than I can.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Shotokan Answer to Rockhold, Bar-Brawler, etc.

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TEZ, tell me how Rockhold, or bar-brawler stands up to this? Here's Shotokan Ippon Kumite dealing with a striking assault just as Machida was knocked down by @ FN15--IN PRINCIPLE.
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This is the same concept I described in how I defeated the aggressive kickboxer-type I faced at my dojo, who most students can't handle. The guy was bigger, stronger, more athletic just like Rockhold, yet I used the power of my whole body in a dynamic way he couldn't stop.... couldn't react to with physical technique alone....
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The irony in the Machida / Rochold fight, was that Rockhold performed the AKA kickboxing versions of some IPPON KUMITE principles demonstrated here, while Machida lunged more like a brawler. Rockhold's boxing form (IMO) in that exchange was good, Machida's sport karate poor. Good boxing trumps poor karate..... every time.
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The TRADITIONAL Shotokan strategy for dealing with a physical assault is to engage and disable right away. That's the traditional Shotokan practical strategy for self defense. That message is all over the IPPON KUMITE exercise shown above. You go out and engage the opponent & SMASH 'EM with a disabling blow. Here, the traditional Shotokan strategy is to accurately & precisely block & counter, as well as a bunch of other fighting stuff that people ridicule & underestimate as simpleton karate. It's simpleton to that audience, those critics of Shotokan / traditional karate because they can not attain, replicate the mental discipline represented here to pull it off.
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It's the mental dimension in the exercise that make it work. Not the outwardly, aggressive, rigid, structured, preset, stiff looking kihon-shotokan physical form regurgitated mindlessly.
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In terms of adding expert techniques, advancements... the long-time members here can do that. the Ian A. level stuff....

 

[ShotoNoob]

The total fighting dynamic point made in the IPPON KUMITE vid, is that the traditional karate fighter moves in response to the actions of the attacker.
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IT IS NOT, IN PRINCIPLE, HOW TO BLOCK A STRAIGHT PUNCH DONE SINGLY... WHERE THE OPPONENT STOPS STILL.
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How many karateka practice Ippon Kumite like it should be practiced? Very few. A minority @ my dojo. I'm probably the best @ Ippon Kumite where I train.
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EDIT: ALSO, note how the Shotokan defender gives ground. An alternative that makes sense against a grappler rushing-in, someone lunging at you. Avoid the grappler getting hands on you, avoid being boweled over. It's one set of alternative ways to handle aggression. Don't tackle physical aggression head on.... A practical message embodied in the stated defensive philosophy of Shotokan.

 

[drop bear]

Again youve missed the point.

The bullet a soldier puts down range on base will be the same as the on in combat.

That doesnt make target practice a firefight.

They practice firefighting with electronic adapters to their body and rifles knowing their instructors will tear them a new one if they fail or get killed. They could go through SOI and never get killed in these pressured sims. But that isnt the same as combat.

Fireman training involves mock burning buildings rigged with saftey devices. Yeah theres fire, but they still arent the same as running into a burning/collapsing building.

Paramedics, interns, ER nurses, Doctors, all are pressured to keep calm and do things perfectly, be they simple sutures, finding veins, surgery, etc. But some still panic, and people die.

Your technique may be the same, but the situation simply isnt. You cant recreate that.

So it is perceived risk. A real fight is riskier than training even if the techniques are the same.

Yet can be mechanically the same and even have the same mental effect on the person.

So basically you are focusing on the risk. Which in my opinion is how people freeze up and under perform.

 

[Tez3]

Shotonoob, I can't understand most of what you write and some of it is shouting which is unnecessary. I answer your posts then you say your posts actually mean something else. You keep telling us how you defeat this and that. Every thread you bring up MMA, Fine. We get the point.

 

[Tez3]

I'm lifting this quite unashamedly from Iain Abernethy's site because I believe wholeheartedly in what he says here.
Self-Protection observation Iain Abernethy

 

[ShotoNoob]

I'm lifting this quite unashamedly from Iain Abernethy's site because I believe wholeheartedly in what he says here.
Self-Protection observation Iain Abernethy

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I read & agree with the Author's concepts. The variables encountered in a self-defense environment are / can be more numbered, different & more complicated than the dojo environment.