Shotokan for self defence.

[Tez3]

During some valid clinch, the striking won't be effective at that moment.

In those pictures I can see several very good strikes the guy in the headlock can use.

But all take down are effective take downs.

Not really, in MMA to be effective ie scoring you have to do something with them, a takedown itself won't score, it's what you do after that counts so no not all takedowns are effective. If you were to takedown your opponent then lay and pray that's not effective nor is it effective if your opponent takes control or gets back up.
Once you are on the floor, striking can be very effective even devastating, you have fists, knees and elbows, hammer fists are nasty.

 

[Tez3]

Yes I do have a rebuttal. Any intelligent wrestler will fake (distract) an attack standing and then shoot low... leaving the striker preoccupied with getting himself untangeled instead of being able to strike him. A striker, more often than not, cannot react in time when he's just gotten distracted by fake attack. And in shooting low I can't hit him on the shin. Only possibility is kneeing him, but like I said, the wrestler will not telegraph his takedown.

You know that doesn't make any sense right? You don't know enough about MMA to be able to tell us what works and what doesn't, you are making it up as you go along.

 

[Drose427]

Yes I do have a rebuttal. Any intelligent wrestler will fake (distract) an attack standing and then shoot low... leaving the striker preoccupied with getting himself untangeled instead of being able to strike him. A striker, more often than not, cannot react in time when he's just gotten distracted by fake attack. And in shooting low I can't hit him on the shin. Only possibility is kneeing him, but like I said, the wrestler will not telegraph his takedown.

What a riot.

One,

faking any competent striking isnt going to leave them anywhere near tangled, at most theyll tighten their guard, which wont stop me from punching whatsoever. You're really overestimating how much fakes do to anyone with more than a week of training.

Two

one of the lowest shots you can do wrestling is an low/swing single, to which a striker can

A. Knee you
B. Drop his knee on you (you see this in wrestling if you actually wrestled) and then pound the heck out of you
C. Sprawl/catch (which most strikers have somewhat of a grasp on, varying degrees) before you get full outside and pummel you hammerfists and uppercuts just like Hackney did in that clip.

Until a striker is down on the mat, the grappler has NO advantage. Too many pepole underestimate how difficult it really is to do that because they're never had to.

You know that doesn't make any sense right? You don't know enough about MMA to be able to tell us what works and what doesn't, you are making it up as you go along.

To heck with MMA, I dont think he understands wrestling in general. Which is fine! Lots of people go through life without wrestling, but he should be so uppity about something he doesnt have experience in...

 

[Laplace_demon]

What a riot.

One,

faking any competent striking isnt going to leave them anywhere near tangled, at most theyll tighten their guard, which wont stop me from punching whatsoever. You're really overestimating how much fakes do to anyone with more than a week of training.

Two

one of the lowest shots you can do wrestling is an low/swing single, to which a striker can

A. Knee you
B. Drop his knee on you (you see this in wrestling if you actually wrestled) and then pound the heck out of you
C. Sprawl/catch (which most strikers have somewhat of a grasp on, varying degrees) before you get full outside and pummel you hammerfists and uppercuts just like Hackney did in that clip.

Until a striker is down on the mat, the grappler has NO advantage. Too many pepole underestimate how difficult it really is to do that because they're never had to.


To heck with MMA, I dont think he understands wrestling in general. Which is fine! Lots of people go through life without wrestling, but he should be so uppity about something he doesnt have experience in...

Compare the stand up KO rate with the takedown rate in MMA. You are the one who's clueless. A wrestler can do just fine. A striker is a shaky proposition.

 

[Drose427]

Compare the stand up KO rate with the takedown rate in MMA. You are the one who's clueless. A wrestler can do just fine. A striker is a shaky proposition.

If you watched UFC youd see how many people have been Koe'd over the years in the exact situations I described.........

Not to mention the fact that UFC fighters have conditioned jaws, a trait your average wrestler is lacking....

 

[Tez3]

Compare the stand up KO rate with the takedown rate in MMA. You are the one who's clueless. A wrestler can do just fine. A striker is a shaky proposition.

More nonsense. Do you train, coach, judge, ref, corner or in fact have anything to do with MMA even if it's only timekeeping? Please post up your credentials for being able to spout this stuff about MMA.

One of our fighters defeated in seconds a well known Judo specialist with a flying knee. That Judo specialist went on to the UFC, look up Phil 'Billy' Harris' record and you will find he lost to David Smythe. I could give you many more examples but I think I'd be wasting my time.

 

[Drose427]

Compare the stand up KO rate with the takedown rate in MMA. You are the one who's clueless. A wrestler can do just fine. A striker is a shaky proposition.

Just for kicks.

Heres an article about UFC Finishers:

Fighting by Numbers Finishing Rates and Weight Class - Bloody Elbow

In all but lightweight, the sub(which would imply takedowns were done) had lower percentage than TKO, and in most divisions Dec was higher than sub.

Not completely indicative, but shows taking it down to grapple isnt necessarily the dominant play here

 

[Drose427]

More nonsense. Do you train, coach, judge, ref, corner or in fact have anything to do with MMA even if it's only timekeeping? Please post up your credentials for being able to spout this stuff about MMA.

One of our fighters defeated in seconds a well known Judo specialist with a flying knee. That Judo specialist went on to the UFC, look up Phil 'Billy' Harris' record and you will find he lost to David Smythe. I could give you many more examples but I think I'd be wasting my time.

In case he wants to cross check.

Phil Harris fighter - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Harris is a Judo BB and without a doubt has wrestling experience competing in MMA

 

[Tez3]

In case he wants to cross check.

Phil Harris fighter - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Harris is a Judo BB and without a doubt has wrestling experience competing in MMA

Just to add insult to injury his car broke down on it's way back to London from Catterick with him and his guys in.

Young David Smythe had a few more fights after but I'm afraid he met a woman a lot older than him who didn't like him fighting, you can guess the rest. He really was talented.

 

[elder999]

. He clearly doesn't win by" one punch one kill principle", which Shotokan supposedly were to instill him with.

Ri-ight....

The thing to remember is that in Shotokan, "one punch" then run away.....not a contest....

In fact, I'd say 一撃必殺 , ichigeki hattatsu, "single hit/certain is likely one of the reasons he was successful in MMA, and that 一本技, ippon waza, "one hit/one kill," was a reason that he wasn't more successful in MMA....

 

[Laplace_demon]

Just for kicks.

Heres an article about UFC Finishers:

Fighting by Numbers Finishing Rates and Weight Class - Bloody Elbow

In all but lightweight, the sub(which would imply takedowns were done) had lower percentage than TKO, and in most divisions Dec was higher than sub.

Not completely indicative, but shows taking it down to grapple isnt necessarily the dominant play here

That would include KO from the ground as well. A striker could achieve that (especially if he's trained in MMA). So that stat does not tell the hole story. Wrestlers are ten times stronger than average strikers. I would assume once he gets the striker down, it's practically over. We are to suppose that I (the striker) have zero training in the groundgame.

 

[Drose427]

That would include KO from the ground as well. A striker could achieve that (especially if he's trained in MMA). So that stat does not tell the hole story. Wrestlers are ten times stronger than average strikers. I would assume once he gets the striker down, it's practically over. We are to suppose that I (the striker) have zero training in the groundgame.

Aside from the painfully incorrect generalization of strength there.........

Yeah, IF the wrestler can even get the takedown.....which isnt as easy to do on someone actually striking you as youre thinking. You've clearly never actually tried or seen someone try to do that.. Heck, watch the Keith Hackney video, he uses little to no wrestling. Just swings away, and every opponent in the clip has a hard time getting to him to grapple.

Its almost painful how certain you are in your inexperience.

 

[Laplace_demon]

Aside from the painfully incorrect generalization of strength there.........

Yeah, IF the wrestler can even get the takedown.....which isnt as easy to do on someone actually striking you as youre thinking. You've clearly never actually tried or seen someone try to do that.. Heck, watch the Keith Hackney video, he uses little to no wrestling. Just swings away, and every opponent in the clip has a hard time getting to him to grapple.

Its almost painful how certain you are in your inexperience.

It's a far easier task than the do or die situation for the striker, who must be 100% precise and KO the bastard. The wrestler won't engage in a kickboxing duel, making it even less likely to KO him.

 

[Steve]

Just for kicks.

Heres an article about UFC Finishers:

Fighting by Numbers Finishing Rates and Weight Class - Bloody Elbow

In all but lightweight, the sub(which would imply takedowns were done) had lower percentage than TKO, and in most divisions Dec was higher than sub.

Not completely indicative, but shows taking it down to grapple isnt necessarily the dominant play here

This is a red herring guys. The rules in Mma favor striking and discourage lentpgthy grappling. Every elite level mmaist is a high level grappler and at least a competent striker. Has no bearing on self defense.

What is true, I believe, is that a striker who is untrained in grappling is in deep trouble if the bad guy is a grappler.

 

[Drose427]

It's a far easier task than the do or die situation for the striker, who must be 100% precise and KO the bastard. The wrestler won't engage in a kickboxing duel, making it even less likely to KO him.

I dont have to completely KO you to put a wrench in the system.....or knock you back giving the striker the edge still, or shut down you takedowns,

Seriously, watch the clips we post

Only Royce was tough enough to stick it out, you can find a million clips exactly like it

Better yet,

try to wrestle someone swinging to hurt you

This is a red herring guys. The rules in Mma favor striking and discourage lentpgthy grappling. Every elite level mmaist is a high level grappler and at least a competent striker. Has no bearing on self defense.

We're speaking in terms of MMA,

going in with no striking experience is equally dangerous as going in with no grappling. WHen you're completely unused to striking (unless youre a gracie cause that family has jaws of steel apparently!) relentless strikers will wail on you whenever you try to grapple. Even Royce Gracie had trouble with Hackney and Hackney wasnt really grappling with Royce at all

 

[Steve]

Just pointing out that, in a thread about shotokan for self defense, machida doesn't really help. Mma in general, and the ufc as an elite level promotion, has really nothing helpful to add here. Any conclusions are going to be clouded by a rule set that favors striking over grappling and is geared to be exciting as a spectator sport.

 

[Laplace_demon]

Just pointing out that, in a thread about shotokan for self defense, machida doesn't really help. Mma in general, and the ufc as an elite level promotion, has really nothing helpful to add here. Any conclusions are going to be clouded by a rule set that favors striking over grappling and is geared to be exciting as a spectator sport.

I am not sure were you get the notion that the rules favour the striker...

 

[Laplace_demon]

I dont have to completely KO you to put a wrench in the system.....or knock you back giving the striker the edge still, or shut down you takedowns,

Seriously, watch the clips we post

Only Royce was tough enough to stick it out, you can find a million clips exactly like it

Better yet,

try to wrestle someone swinging to hurt you


We're speaking in terms of MMA,

going in with no striking experience is equally dangerous as going in with no grappling. WHen you're completely unused to striking (unless youre a gracie cause that family has jaws of steel apparently!) relentless strikers will wail on you whenever you try to grapple. Even Royce Gracie had trouble with Hackney and Hackney wasnt really grappling with Royce at all

It's not about having a jaw of steel, he simply didn't get hit that much. And I not only need to strike a wrestler, I need to take him out. If he get's me to the ground in the process, being ok from the blow, then I am screwed as well.

 

[Drose427]

It's not about having a jaw of steel, he simply didn't get hit that much. And I not only need to strike a wrestler, I need to take him out. If he get's me to the ground in the process, being ok from the blow, then I am screwed as well.

If you think Royce didnt get hit that much, you very CLEARLY did not watch UFC.....

Again, for your viewing pleasure, Keith Hackney shutting down several people trying to wrestle (royce submits him yes, but gets pummeled in the process)

 

[Laplace_demon]

Hackney employs the right strategy, unlike many of strikers in the Gracie challenge matches, who were far too passive. Note that the commentators did say that Royce has rarely been hit, and that his chin will be tested in the match against Hackney.