Shotokan for self defence.

[ShotoNoob]

Shotonoob, I can't understand most of what you write and some of it is shouting which is unnecessary. I answer your posts then you say your posts actually mean something else. You keep telling us how you defeat this and that. Every thread you bring up MMA, Fine. We get the point.

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Most training traditional karate don't get the point either. Other posters have talked about too much focus on physical form vs. understanding traditional martial art principles. How one successfully addresses this issue is of paramount importance.

 

[Laplace_demon]

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Fair enough. Machida's Shotokan Karate Base is definitely a factor in his success. ..

But it is not the only factor. He wouldn't have lasted very long going straight from the dojo to MMA. A wrestler however can. Machida is a black belt in BJJ, dabbled in Sumo. This makes his takedown defence worlds apart from traditional Shotokan Karateka. He clearly doesn't win by" one punch one kill principle", which Shotokan supposedly were to instill him with.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I don't know a lot about Shotokan.

I don't know anything about Shotokan either. But does all MA systems teach you how to "meet your fist on your opponent's face"? If you can't do it, it should be your problem and not your system's problem.

 

[Drose427]

But it is not the only factor. He wouldn't have lasted very long going straight from the dojo to MMA. A wrestler however can. Machida is a black belt in BJJ, dabbled in Sumo. This makes his takedown defence worlds apart from traditional Shotokan Karateka. He clearly doesn't win by" one punch one kill principle", which Shotokan supposedly were to instill him with.

Well the discussion wasn't about Machidas pure karate being enough for MMA, only for his striking .(Thai clinch excluded)

But,

No a wrestler really can't.....

In the early days of UFC there was a 300 pound sumo wrestler who cast constantly out struck by TMA guys and kickboxers.

Coming in to MMA lopsided is a death sentence, regardless which side.


After the first couple UFCs when strikers started grappling to, the Gracie's didn't stand out as Much.

In sakuraba vs rorion(?) Rorions striking was poor and at one point rorion was getting kicked and pounded on while he was trying to butt scoot around waiting to try and find a way to get sakuraba down.

 

[Laplace_demon]

Well the discussion wasn't about Machidas pure karate being enough for MMA, only for his striking .(Thai clinch excluded)

But,

No a wrestler really can't.....

In the early days of UFC there was a 300 pound sumo wrestler who cast constantly out struck by TMA guys and kickboxers.

Coming in to MMA lopsided is a death sentence, regardless which side.


After the first couple UFCs when strikers started grappling to, the Gracie's didn't stand out as Much.

In sakuraba vs rorion(?) Rorions striking was poor and at one point rorion was getting kicked and pounded on while he was trying to butt scoot around waiting to try and find a way to get sakuraba down.

A Wrestler will go much much longer in the UFC on wrestling alone than a Karateka or TKDoin. Simply because it's a lottery for the striker to land a kick, or punch to take him out before the clinch, in which the wrestlers strenght is superior. It's not really a lottery for a wrestler to take down a complete amateur.

Pride and UFC is the closest we have to reality and self defence. Pride in particular.

 

[Drose427]

A Wrestler will go much much longer in the UFC on wrestling alone than a Karateka or TKDoin. Simply because it's a lottery for the striker to land a kick, or punch to take him out before the clinch, in which the wrestlers strenght is superior. It's not really a lottery for a wrestler to take down a complete amateur.

Pride and UFC is the closest we have to reality and self defence. Pride in particular.

You REALLY need to just train....and stop living in this martial arts fantasy world.

Its not as easy as you think for your average person to step in and try to muscle their way to a take down when someones swinging punches......

Your average wrestler can't take a punch on the chin any better than your average Joe, all it takes is one decently placed shot.

And half the time when you a see a video of anyone attacking a boxer they never even get close. Once the fists start flying, they're either dropped or kept away.

An average wrestler isn't just gonna be able to stand there taking shots just for a take down.

Again, that wrestler got KOed a good bit by karate/TKD guys in early UFC, you can find videos of it everywhere in both UFC and pride. He was nearly always twice their size and his size and strength meant nothing.

 

[Laplace_demon]

The Gracies were not wrestlers. If yo don't know the difference between wrestling and BJJ..........

 

[Drose427]

The Gracies were not wrestlers. If yo don't know the difference between wrestling and BJJ..........

No but full submission grappling expands my point....

Teils Tuli was a sumo wrestler...he got KOed and TKOed several times.....by strikers half his size...

Going in with only wrestling to MMA is just as bad s going in with only striking...

 

[Drose427]

The Gracies were not wrestlers. If yo don't know the difference between wrestling and BJJ..........

Oh, and emmanual Yarborough.

Ken Shamrock aalso got out done in striking and he was a pretty big wrestler

 

[Laplace_demon]

I am not talking about Sumo wrestlers (face palm...)

Going in with only wrestling to MMA is just as bad s going in with only striking...

Hardly. It's not optimal, but still preferred.

 

[Tez3]

A Wrestler will go much much longer in the UFC on wrestling alone than a Karateka or TKDoin. Simply because it's a lottery for the striker to land a kick, or punch to take him out before the clinch, in which the wrestlers strenght is superior. It's not really a lottery for a wrestler to take down a complete amateur.

Oh my days, that is simply one of the most naïve, ignorant and ridiculous statements it's been my pleasure to read. Thank you for that, I will share it with my fighters and we shall be inspired to amazing new heights in our struggle not to die laughing at the things you say.

Really, thank you, only someone with a complete and utter lack of knowledge of any martial arts could come up with that one.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

it's a lottery for the striker to land a kick, or punch to take him out before the clinch, ...

In UFC, the "take down" successful rate is always higher than the "knock down" successful rate. IMO, the anti-grappling may not exist but the anti-striking does exist. You can give up your striking ability and enhance your grappling ability by using "zombie arms", "rhino guard", "crazy monkey", "double spears", "octopus arms", .... You just can't give up your grappling ability to enhance your striking ability. The moment that you can use your arms to wrap around your opponent's punching arms, the moment that the striking game is over and the grappling game will start. Since you can wrap your arms around your opponent's arms during his 1st punch, 2nd punch, 3rd punch, or ..., the striking game can be over much early than you may expect.

Here is an interested test.

- If you can obtain a clinch within your opponent's first 5 punches, you win that around.
- If your opponent's punch can hit you within the first 5 punches, or if you can't obtain a clinch within his first 5 punches, you lose that round.
- Test this for 15 rounds everyday and record the result.
- Repeat this testing for 3 months and draw your own conclusion.

 

[Drose427]

I am not talking about Sumo wrestlers (face palm...)



Hardly. It's not optimal, but still preferred.

There are very few things I learned in wrestling that arent found in sumo and BJJ........

You're splitting hairs and you're still wrong......

You still have no rebuttal for the fact that a wrestlers chin is the average joes.....and hes not getting inside without taking some heavy hits.....

It really is just as bad going in with only striking....

Here's an exercise I do whenever I work with grapplers (many of which I wrestled with in high school, 2 of whom were disctrict qualifiers in in the OH/WV area which is good in terms of wrestling, some who are ranked in ibjff BJJ):

One guy is allowed to swing out, punches, controlled elbows, knees, etc. Whatever they wanna do.
The other is ONLY allowed to grapple. He has to close distance, get takedown, get sub.

I have yet to see a grappler who hasnt trained/competed in MMA/Boxing/etc. do so without getting knocked around. Eventually theyll get used to it and figure it out, but not at first.

Obviously use proper equipment so we arent killing each other but the points still there.

It isnt as easy as the inexperienced think.

 

[Drose427]

The anti-grappling may not exist but the anti-striking does exist. You can give up your striking ability and enhance your grappling ability by using "zombie arms", "rhino guard", "crazy monkey", "double spears", .... You just can't give up your grappling ability to enhance your striking ability. The moment that you can use your arms to wrap around your opponent's punching arms, the moment that the striking game is over and the grappling game starts. Since you can wrap your arms on your opponent's 1st punch, 2nd punch, 3rd punch, or ..., the striking game can be over early than you may think.

But you can still strike from the clinch.

The only sole grappling fighter that comes to mind in the history of MMA to be successful was Royce Gracie, and many times even he took more poundings than your average wrestler can take to do it.

Shamrock got beat trying to wrestle before, yarborough and tuli were sumo guys and they got Koed quiet a few times going for what youre describing against guys half their size.

Until the fighters go down to the mat, striking is still valid, and many a conditioned grappler/striker have been KOe'd by a punch during standing grappling IF they were even able to get to that point.

You're average joe wrestler cant just magically close the distance, theyre gonna take shots to the face, which you're average grappler isnt used to.

Obviously its the opposite issue if the grappler can get the striker down to the mat, but doing so isnt as simple as people think.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

But you can still strike from the clinch.

The only sole grappling fighter that comes to mind in the history of MMA to be successful was Royce Gracie, and many times even he took more poundings than your average wrestler can take to do it.

This post may have nothing to do with "Shotokan".

Not all punches are effective knock down/out punches. But all take down are effective take downs.

During some valid clinch, the striking won't be effective at that moment.

 

[Drose427]

This post may have nothing to do with "Shotokan".

During some valid clinch, the striking won't be effective at that moment.

In UFC, Kieth Hackney did it from positions similar to the top 2 pics

He also struck (I think it was shamrock) in the wasit/groin from a headlock like the bottom picture


Working the body is easy from the second picture, assuming you cant slip out to a better by prying your arm out and pushing away (which is exactly what it looks like the blue singlet is about to do), slipping out of the hand around his neck/head is the easy part. A better clinch for the other guy would be a collar/elbow grip, the one he has really isnt that good.

the 3rd...Well its wwe....while uncomfortable thats really not a likely position at all against ANY resisting opponent.....forget about one throwing strikes. The guy in the headlock can pretty easily hit the other in the face and groin, and the guy cant even hiptoss because hes so far away and painfully not loaded

But again, none of those guys had to take one on the chin to get there.

 

[Drose427]

Definitely wasnt Shamrock getting Groin Punched...I goofed there....but my point stands

Even Royce was having difficulty grappling here against the onslaught of strikes and ate A LOT of heavy hands to get it. Your average wrestler cant do that

yes, he had some wrestling experience, but in the clips its clear his striking is whats messing up the grapplers momentum.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

none of those guys had to take one on the chin to get there.

Everybody will get punched. But a "knock down/out" punch is not that easy to achieve.

To avoid uppercut is not that hard.

But you can still strike from the clinch.

That's why the moment that you get into a clinch, the moment that you take your opponent down. In sport there is a 3 seconds rule for that.

 

[Drose427]

That's why the moment that you get into a clinch, the moment that you take your opponent down. In sport there is a 3 second rule for that.

But it isnt as simple as that,

Even without the added annoyance of the other guy hitting you

 

[Laplace_demon]

You still have no rebuttal for the fact that a wrestlers chin is the average joes.....and hes not getting inside without taking some heavy hits.....

It really is just as bad going in with only striking.....

Yes I do have a rebuttal. Any intelligent wrestler will fake (distract) an attack standing and then shoot low... leaving the striker preoccupied with getting himself untangeled instead of being able to strike him. A striker, more often than not, cannot react in time when he's just gotten distracted by fake attack. And in shooting low I can't hit him on the shin. Only possibility is kneeing him, but like I said, the wrestler will not telegraph his takedown.