Shotokan for self defence.

[Steve]

Simple question, how many competitive matches that have ended with either throwing in the towel or referee stoppage where the losing fighter was still able to continue if his life depended on it? I would guess the number is pretty high.

I think the idea is that a towel is thrown in or the referee stopped the fight once the outcome was a foregone conclusion. If your point is that, because the person wasn't beaten to death, there was still a chance... sure... I get it. But I really believe this is a technical "chance" like Jim Carrey in Dumb and Dumber (where he says something like, "What do you think the chances of a girl like you and a guy like me... 1 in 100?" She replied, "More like 1 in a million." "So, you're saying there's a chance...."

Technically, there's a chance that the person could continue fighting for his life, but at the point when the towel is thrown in or the referee stops the fight, it's a matter of just allowing more time to beat the loser to death.

What you're referring to is called an "early stoppage" and is very much frowned upon in boxing or in MMA. When the fighter is still intelligently defending himself (or herself) the fight should continue. It's at the point where he/she is helpless that the fight should be stopped.

 

[Gnarlie]

A few points here.

You can not be successful in a ring fight by avoiding it completely.

The chances of someone pulling a concealed weapon in a ring situation are zero if they play by the rules.

The chances of multiple participants entering the ring unexpectedly is zero.

The likelihood of one fighter getting a good shot in and then running out of the ring and away to safety is also zero.

There's no danger of ending up with a criminal record or custodial sentence from a legitimate ring fight.

None of the above are true in a real confrontation, and those factors alone justify taking a different approach to sport and self defence in my opinion.

Shotokan trained in the right way, just like any other TMA, has the tools for the job.

 

[ShotoNoob]

However ithotoNoob, post: 1700710, member: 33216"]|
I think we are @ cross purposes here....However it's a very different mindset which changes the situation enormously. I enjoy competitive fighting, I'm not keen on getting punched but in a competition I know I can stop fighting if I want to that makes me quite relaxed. I can afford to take chances, if my moves are sloppy or I'll timed I can lose the fight and I get the mickey taken out of me. In a self defence situation the scenario is very different. That's why competitive fighting is off topic for this thread. It's specifically about Shotokan and self defence.

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Okay, I see your definition.
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I'm not so concerned with definition, I look @ principles that can be applied in a myriad of situations. MMA ,self defense, whatever....
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Synthesis of those principles, whether a demo in traditional karate class, an MMA match, some of the illustrated scenarios presented @ MT like the ground fighting dilemma with the knife wielder , is how I approach these issues. I tie things together into a package, a solution. It's called becoming an effective figther....

 

[ShotoNoob]

A few points here.

You can not be successful in a ring fight by avoiding it completely....

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I'll take just one of your points to highlight my approach to self defense. Just like success in the ring, octagon, you may find yourself in a location where you can not physically escape. So the escape alternative is off the table. Could be the situation where the physical route to escape exists, yet the assailant poses a continuing threat that's imminent. The choice to stand & fight could then be the lower risk alternative.
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Yet again, the opportunity for you to make a clean break & get away could be clear & certain. Leaving someone else who is vulnerable & under attack to fend for themselves..??? Should you then come to their aid?
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These scenarios / issue decision-trees have been spoken to before here @ MT by self defense specialists that I'm sure....

 

[Tez3]

QUOTE="ShotoNoob, post: 1700908, member: 33216"]|
Okay, I see your definition.
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I'm not so concerned with definition, I look @ principles that can be applied in a myriad of situations. MMA ,self defense, whatever....
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Synthesis of those principles, whether a demo in traditional karate class, an MMA match, some of the illustrated scenarios presented @ MT like the ground fighting dilemma with the knife, is how I approach these issues. I tie things together into a package, a solution. It's called becoming an effective figther....[/QUOTE]


To be honest you would be better starting a new thread and getting a new conversation started because this thread is specifically about Shotokan, I imagine if the OP had wanted to encompass more styles he would have said so and not just Shotokan, sometimes people just want to discuss something in a more focused, narrow way. Machida may have Shotokan in his background but he was fighting in MMA so it's impossible to say from watching his fight whether Shotokan has anything for self defence, not that you should just look at one fighter anyway to demonstrate a style.

 

[Tez3]

Just like success in the ring, octagon, you may find yourself in a location where you can not physically escape. So the escape alternative is off the table.

The point is though that one CAN escape from the ring or octagon quite easily if you want to! It is NOT a location you can't escape from!

 

[ShotoNoob]

THE ROCKHOLD ROUND #1 MACHIDA KNOCKDOWN:
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There are some excellent illustrations of this on the MMA sites. I think that illustration says a lot on fighting, self defense, whatever you want to call physical conflict.
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Rockhold & the AKA organization deserve tons of credit, IMO, for planning & training properly to beat Machida. I think they watched the past fight tapes on Machida, studied the history of his style and competitive outcomes carefully. Hence Rockhold evolved a striking skill-set superior to Machida as shown by FN 15. PERIOD.
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Rockhold's knockdown wouldn't have likely been successful on me. Why, because I DON'T DEFEND MYSELF LIKE MACHIDA. I don't do karate offense like Machida either.... My fighting style is based on broad principles, not so much a paradigm like Machida.'s brand of Shotokan MMA-Kumite.

 

[ShotoNoob]

The point is though that one CAN escape from the ring or octagon quite easily if you want to! It is NOT a location you can't escape from!

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Not as the earlier poster from GeRmany said, AND WIN.

 

[ShotoNoob]

To be honest you would be better starting a new thread and getting a new conversation started because this thread is specifically about Shotokan, I imagine if the OP had wanted to encompass more styles he would have said so and not just Shotokan, sometimes people just want to discuss something in a more focused, narrow way. Machida may have Shotokan in his background but he was fighting in MMA so it's impossible to say from watching his fight whether Shotokan has anything for self defence, not that you should just look at one fighter anyway to demonstrate a style.

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Fair enough. Machida's Shotokan Karate Base is definitely a factor in his success. Demonstrated in a full contact, pressure-testing environment outside of Sport Karate Point fighting. That's the "principled" perspective.
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I have to figure out how to load gifs.... any pointers apprecitated. Thanks.
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BTW: I do agree--in principle--with your position on self defense, the larger context....

 

[Tez3]

Rockhold's knockdown wouldn't have likely been successful on me. Why, because I DON'T DEFEND MYSELF LIKE MACHIDA.

You give credit to Rockhold's preparation then go on and say this, you don't think that if you were matched against him they would also do some prep? They would and they would plan out the best way to beat you so saying you wouldn't lose because you don't fight like Machida is an empty boast. Every fighter is different, and this still have nothing to do with Shotokan and self defence. I would dare suggest that if attacked on the street Machida would certainly have fought differently and with more conviction...as we all would. You can't compare Shotokan's self defence techniques with one man's fighting style in one fight on one night.

 

[Tez3]

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Not as the earlier poster from GeRmany said, AND WIN.

You have the choice to leave, whether you do and whether you then win or lose is a choice you aren't given when you are fighting for your life.

 

[drop bear]

A few points here.

You can not be successful in a ring fight by avoiding it completely.

The chances of someone pulling a concealed weapon in a ring situation are zero if they play by the rules.

The chances of multiple participants entering the ring unexpectedly is zero.

The likelihood of one fighter getting a good shot in and then running out of the ring and away to safety is also zero.

There's no danger of ending up with a criminal record or custodial sentence from a legitimate ring fight.

None of the above are true in a real confrontation, and those factors alone justify taking a different approach to sport and self defence in my opinion.

Shotokan trained in the right way, just like any other TMA, has the tools for the job.

Because the dynamics of Shotokan training are the same as a street fight against multiples and weapons?

Or do I make up my own semantic differences like street fights don't happen in a gi,with bare feet,bowing first,whatever.

I mean you could do Shotokan and learn to avoid incoming shots and reply with hard crippling shots of your own. But because you may be attacked in a slightly different manner to the way you train voids that right?

I really don't get where these differences come from.

 

[Steve]

Because the dynamics of Shotokan training are the same as a street fight against multiples and weapons?

Or do I make up my own semantic differences like street fights don't happen in a gi,with bare feet,bowing first,whatever.

I mean you could do Shotokan and learn to avoid incoming shots and reply with hard crippling shots of your own. But because you may be attacked in a slightly different manner to the way you train voids that right?

I really don't get where these differences come from.

Agreed. If the point is that training for combat sports is less realistic than Shotokan, I don't get it. Karate trained in a dojo is not any closer to reality than BJJ or MMA. It's just unrealistic in a different way.

The ancillary, self defense related items can be added to any martial arts training and provide a solid foundation for practical self defense, wether it's Shotokan Karate, BJJ, MMA, TKD or anything else.

 

[Drose427]

Because the dynamics of Shotokan training are the same as a street fight against multiples and weapons?

Or do I make up my own semantic differences like street fights don't happen in a gi,with bare feet,bowing first,whatever.

I mean you could do Shotokan and learn to avoid incoming shots and reply with hard crippling shots of your own. But because you may be attacked in a slightly different manner to the way you train voids that right?

I really don't get where these differences come from.

Because you keep trying to think we're saying one training method is preferable or more realistic, when in reality we've only said a ring match is no equivalent to a life threatening situation.

 

[Steve]

Because you keep trying to think we're saying one training method is preferable or more realistic, when in reality we've only said a ring match is no equivalent to a life threatening situation.

What do you think is in Shotokan Karate that is equivalent to a life threatening situation?

The above statement implies that there is a contrast being made. In other words, it is irrelevant to the conversation that a sports match is not the same as a life threatening altercation, if somehow there is an aspect of training in Karate that IS equivalent. Otherwise, why bring it up other than to bash a style?

 

[Drose427]

This is exactly what we're talking about.

We havent said ANYTHING along the lines of "Shotokan vs MMA for realism".

We've all said that that both Shotokan and MMA give you the tools to get the job done, But they arent some equivalent for a Life Threatening situation.

Not a single person here has claimed Shotokan to be super realistic, youre reaching for words we havent said.

Frankly no ring match (if anything even can be) is.

It's like than SOI is equal to actual combat.

Stop getting defensive about the style v style and method v method and just read what we're saying.

 

[drop bear]

Because you keep trying to think we're saying one training method is preferable or more realistic, when in reality we've only said a ring match is no equivalent to a life threatening situation.

So If I Shotokan punch someone in the head in a ring and knocks them out. It will for some reason not work if someone is trying to kill me.

 

[Drose427]

So If I Shotokan punch someone in the head in a ring and knocks them out. It will for some reason not work if someone is trying to kill me.

Already covered Physically Ability, Psychologically Impact, real life threatening danger and how they connect. In this thread and in others.

Thats the point youre missing.

 

[Gnarlie]

I used the term 'ring match' because it covers both Shotokan and MMA and any other combat sport you might care to mention.

My point was, those 'ancillary' aspects are examples of what needs to be added to make whatever curriculum suitable and practical for use in self defence.

Without them, one has a toolbox full of combative techniques, but not much else.

Not much value in training for a lifetime if in your first confrontation you end up getting stabbed / getting put away for manslaughter / culpable homicide / grievous bodily harm / assault and battery.

Unless one's training encompasses those specifics of self defence and is tailored to the local circumstances, the combative toolkit is likely to be as much of a hindrance as a help. Regardless of art or sport. But we've been around this track a couple of times already.

 

[Gnarlie]

Agreed. If the point is that training for combat sports is less realistic than Shotokan, I don't get it. Karate trained in a dojo is not any closer to reality than BJJ or MMA. It's just unrealistic in a different way.

That wasn't my point, sorry if it wasn't clear. I included Shotokan in the ring sport group in my mind.

The ancillary, self defense related items can be added to any martial arts training and provide a solid foundation for practical self defense, wether it's Shotokan Karate, BJJ, MMA, TKD or anything else.

That was my point - this is in danger of turning style vs style or sport vs SD. But my point was unless one is training specifically for SD, one has the tools to do the job but one is just as likely to bring oneself into danger as to safety with them.