ShotoNoob
Master Black Belt
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Machida completely failed to defend himself against a Drose427 counter!!! Wake up guys (gals).
Shotokan for self defence.
- Thread starter K-man
- Start date
Machida completely failed to defend himself against a Drose427 counter!!! Wake up guys (gals).
ShotoNoob
Master Black Belt
MACHIDA RETIREMENT?/ Oh no not that line again:
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Again, the colloquial verbiage to say from armchair internet MMA wannabe nerds.... Rockhold was physically overpowering. How does traditional karate defend against such? To do a bit a synthesis, Machida / Rockhold bore a number of similarities with the Karate Gal vs. Streetfighter Guy YT someone posted.
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Just darting in & landing a strike on a bigger, taller, stronger opponent as she did left her what--completely exposed to what:?--counter smack, counter grabs & manhandling. Deija Vu anyone? Didn't StreeFighter drag her all over the floor for awhile? won't forget that!
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Again, the colloquial verbiage to say from armchair internet MMA wannabe nerds.... Rockhold was physically overpowering. How does traditional karate defend against such? To do a bit a synthesis, Machida / Rockhold bore a number of similarities with the Karate Gal vs. Streetfighter Guy YT someone posted.
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Just darting in & landing a strike on a bigger, taller, stronger opponent as she did left her what--completely exposed to what:?--counter smack, counter grabs & manhandling. Deija Vu anyone? Didn't StreeFighter drag her all over the floor for awhile? won't forget that!
No, that was in an MMA fight not self defence in a non competitive environment. An MMA fight is consensual violence between two competitors, it is not self defence. While I am NOT suggesting it in this case, fights can be fixed, mismatched and generally not an even balance of fighters. Self defence is a person/s having to defend themselves against often arbitrary attacks on their person with then intent to seriously wound or kill. Two very different scenarios.
ShotoNoob
Master Black Belt
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I think we are @ cross purposes here.
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I concur with your descriptive comparison. Very clear.
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An opponent trying to punch you out is still / can be a 'self defense' scenario. That' my point.
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I look @ TMA's as a set of principles one can apply. HOw applied depends on environment, of course............
However ithotoNoob, post: 1700710, member: 33216"]|
I think we are @ cross purposes here.
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I concur with your descriptive comparison. Very clear.
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An opponent trying to punch you out is still / can be a 'self defense' scenario. That' my point.
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I look @ TMA's as a set of principles one can apply. HOw applied depends on environment, of course............[/QUOTE]
However it's a very different mindset which changes the situation enormously. I enjoy competitive fighting, I'm not keen on getting punched but in a competition I know I can stop fighting if I want to that makes me quite relaxed. I can afford to take chances, if my moves are sloppy or I'll timed I can lose the fight and I get the mickey taken out of me. In a self defence situation the scenario is very different. That's why competitive fighting is off topic for this thread. It's specifically about Shotokan and self defence.
I think we are @ cross purposes here.
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I concur with your descriptive comparison. Very clear.
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An opponent trying to punch you out is still / can be a 'self defense' scenario. That' my point.
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I look @ TMA's as a set of principles one can apply. HOw applied depends on environment, of course............[/QUOTE]
However it's a very different mindset which changes the situation enormously. I enjoy competitive fighting, I'm not keen on getting punched but in a competition I know I can stop fighting if I want to that makes me quite relaxed. I can afford to take chances, if my moves are sloppy or I'll timed I can lose the fight and I get the mickey taken out of me. In a self defence situation the scenario is very different. That's why competitive fighting is off topic for this thread. It's specifically about Shotokan and self defence.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Not in the basic mechanics. Consensual or not. They are trying to beat you up. You are trying to stop them.
Some one is trying to hurt you, in a regulated and safe environment with someone having the power to end the fight if they even THINK you're unable to continue.
We've all had this discussion before so I'm gonna just reiterate once and bow out,
Thats a far cry from fighting for your life.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
There is no street fighting trick for continuing after you cannot continue. So a life and death fight might continue but your part in it is basically over. Same as if the ref jumps in and stops a ring fight.
You don't have a magic trick to de unconscious yourself or fight on after a submission. What you have(like everybody else) is hopefully the mechanics to save you getting put in that position in the first place.
The same mechanics.
This street fighting for the realz is ridiculous. I street fight for the realz. And it is a silly exercise. Have a guy living with me at the moment who bounced in Brisbane and street fought for the realz. Coincidentally is up here teaching wrestling. He worked with my mma coach up there who also street fought for the realz.
And the mechanics are the same.
Again, not psychologically.
It's the same concept behind people who perform at practice but draw a blank during an actual wrestling match.
The brain knows the difference between regulation and real danger.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Ok. These are the same reasons why kata is not viable for self defence then right?
Shotokan trains in a school and there is rarely circumstances where they get beaten to death.
So they are training different mechanics to what they would use in a street fight.
I mean that's the logic.
We are down to training does not prepare you for self defence. Because it is not the real thing. And that is just false.
Not a single person has told you or said that training doesnt not prepare you for self defense other than you just now.
Only that a match is not some equivalent to a life-threatening or SD situation.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
A match is harder. Goes longer, more technical and you are generally fighting a better fighter.
A street fight has more risk.
Psychologically it is the same. Unless you convince yourself otherwise. And you are not doing yourself any favours by either over thinking one or under thinking the other.
A winning,hard fighting mindset is the same in self defence or ring fight or even training in general. This idea that a self defence is super serious and you are going to die will act against you. If you train people with that mind set. It will act against them.
You mentality attempt to achieve an emotional plateau. You cant get that if you fill peoples heads full of risk. That is for people who don't fight.
Simple question, how many competitive matches that have ended with either throwing in the towel or referee stoppage where the losing fighter was still able to continue if his life depended on it? I would guess the number is pretty high.
Its kinda like going to a sports bar in the UK to a rugby or cricket match,
Yeah, boxing and cricket are gonna be there, and folks are gonna wanna talk about then
But you know theres gonna be those guys who just wont shut up about soccer
Its kinda like going to a sports bar in the UK to a rugby or cricket match,
Yeah, boxing and cricket are gonna be there, and folks are gonna wanna talk about then
But you know theres gonna be those guys who just wont shut up about soccer
The problem is that people insist on discussing individual fighters and their fights which has nothing to do with Shotokan and self defence, it adds nothing to the conversation.
And Shotonoob, I'm very far from being an armchair MMA fan, as about as far as you can possibly be. The Machida fight was a demo of many things, self defence though wasn't one of them.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
I am sure plenty. But it still does not change the mechanics of the fight.
You are not going to count on the slim chance that you will turn around a fight that you are obviously loosing.
That is a really silly place to put yourself in.
Whether you can cont on it or not you might not have much of a choice but to turn it around and that does change the mechanics. You certainly can not count on someone breaking up the fight when you are losing, although it does happen..
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Regardless of the situation you are in you should be defending yourself as hard as possible. There is not a street/sport difference there. It is effective in both environments and is not style specific.
You do understand the aim is not to have the ref come in and save you or in a self defense a bystander come in and save you. But to be in a position where you have saved yourself?
And I would be surprised if Shotokan has a different view on this. Or if they teach people to focus on how badly you could get mangled. Which to me seems counter productive.
A fight is just that a fight, it is not competition and it has moved beyond the first principles of self defense.
It is about survival, and if Shotokan teaches one to break limbs, take eyes, knock people out while sustaining as little damage as possible to oneself then it has done it's job.
The self defense happens when you evade a punch, kick, grab,etc. and that I am sure is part of most Shotokan training. If the practitioner learns to do it efficiently or not is another matter.
It is about survival, and if Shotokan teaches one to break limbs, take eyes, knock people out while sustaining as little damage as possible to oneself then it has done it's job.
The self defense happens when you evade a punch, kick, grab,etc. and that I am sure is part of most Shotokan training. If the practitioner learns to do it efficiently or not is another matter.
