Shotokan for self defence.

[Drose427]

My father is closer than a grandfather. Your counter has no validity. He has had a big impact on my life and my interest in martial arts, which is most probably inherited.

Yes, which is why i also used uncle and Father as examples.......

Again, his impact on your life and interest, does not translate to you having his knowledge or ability, inherited or learned.

You are not him.

You are not amazing or knowledgable simply because he is.

That makes you sound about as arrogant and ignorant as they come

 

[ShotoNoob]

At UFC Fox 15 {last Saturday}, Luke Rockhold wiped out Machida in short order. Why?
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As sharp MMA journalists have pointed out, Machida's form made him vulnerable to a counter-knockdown which then led Machida to his doom.
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Shotokan form provides function. Shotokan form develops function. Stray too far from form and you forfeit functionality.

 

[Steve]

Claiming that I lack exposure to Shotokan when I have both trained it and have a father who's a gold medalist in JKA, is not that well thought out. Do you think this makes it less or more likely that I would have experience in Shotokan? Like I care if anyone in here believes it. People who don't even come close to that rank and merits. They are like kindergarden in comparison, yet tell me I lack experience.

Laplace_demon, I'm sure you're very knowledgeable. The problem is that you're relying on what's called an appeal to authority. We don't know you, nor do we know your father. When you make an assertion that cuts against the grain, it's just common sense that you would be prepared to justify your assertions with credible sources. When people are making things up as they go, appealing to an unknown authority is a common tactic, and one we're very wary of.

If you don't care what anyone here believes, that's your choice. But bear in mind, this is also a tactic common to people who are being called out for making things up as they go. This makes your posts "sound" defensive and aggressive, surely more than you intend.

Bottom line, you might be a very knowledgeable martial artist. Who knows for sure? But you aren't proving to be a very good communicator, and at best, your message is getting completely lost in translation.

 

[drop bear]

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In traditional karate, Function follows Form. No bigger illustration of this than Shotokan karate.
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There is no such thing in traditional karate as NICE kata. Kata is not about form, it's about function provided by performing kata true to form.
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Demonstrating the physical form of kata by itself is meaningless in traditional karate, other than you have knowledge of the physical description of kata steps. You can recited the physical steps. It's the foundational internal skills invisible to the uninitiated that matter.
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Kata is not a physical gym routine. It's about getting the mind & body to work in unison--under the guide of the "mental clarity" dimension. Development of Mental discipline is the emphasis.
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I agree you don't need kata to become a good fighter. However, the role of resistance as a training tool is not the emphasis in traditional martial arts, karate.

Which in my eyes is backwards. And I think internal skills are a bit like saying because magic.

I rate a technique on its ability to be used. I judge its ability to be used by seeing it used. Using it or having it used on me. This is where I would gain confidence in a skill set for self defence.

 

[ShotoNoob]

1. Which in my eyes is backwards. And I think internal skills are a bit like saying because magic.

2. I rate a technique on its ability to be used. I judge its ability to be used by seeing it used. Using it or having it used on me. This is where I would gain confidence in a skill set for self defence.

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1. I know. yet there is an article & post here @ MT re the comparisons of Shotokan & Korean Karates such as Tang Soo do that speak to the three kinds of martial potential, which can/ are all developed internally.... Not just the magic "ki." element so many broadly confuse as "internal" when describing martial arts styles....
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2. Right, we have to be practical, and traditional karate form isn't uniformly practical. But bunkai that is practical does make martial arts traditional. it's the internal foundation that makes traditional martial arts traditionally effective. And the main driver of that is mental. Not physical techniques....
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In the end, traditional karate & everything else martial is after practicality. It's what defines the skill set and how to get that skill set that make arts traditional versus sport /athletically oriented.
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Even MMA, which IMO is dominated by sport-fighting methods, physical training, it's the mental fighter, the thinking competitors like Jones, Weidman & lately Rockhold who become the most dangerous. It's not their physicality or technique per se....

 

[Drose427]

At UFC Fox 15 {last Saturday}, Luke Rockhold wiped out Machida in short order. Why?
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As sharp MMA journalists have pointed out, Machida's form made him vulnerable to a counter-knockdown which then led Machida to his doom.
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Shotokan form provides function. Shotokan form develops function. Stray too far from form and you forfeit functionality.

I watched that fight, and i can tell you his fighting form wasnt the biggest issue.

Machida didnt really have heart, i mean he basically gave up on the ground game didnt really fight the final choke.

Which in my eyes is backwards. And I think internal skills are a bit like saying because magic.

I rate a technique on its ability to be used. I judge its ability to be used by seeing it used. Using it or having it used on me. This is where I would gain confidence in a skill set for self defence.

I personally dont like shotonoobs explanation of forms as, while it is one good reason for doing them, i dont consider it the most important.

Theyre a supplement like running prespecified combos on mitts or a bag, theyre meant to be taken and applied on opponents.

To me, when schools or students dont do this properly i consider it a disconnect with their method and an important reason for doing forms.
I call that dancing, not forms.

As one of my instructor says, " I can teach a monkey the form, but he wont be able to grasp the applications and use them."

This is why its important to remember theyre just one supplement, not some hidden mystical method tv and lack of knowledge has let folks believe. Dont like em, dont do em. Theyre hardly a neccessity.

Like i said in a previous post, i could teach you the specific punches,blocks, and kicks and we could drill\practice/apply.

But youd be doing many ofnthe same partner drills, and when working alone youd be doing virtually the exact same thing as forms just in no real order.

Its all in preference of how you like to practice.

 

[ShotoNoob]

I watched that fight, and i can tell you his fighting form wasnt the biggest issue.

Machida didnt really have heart, i mean he basically gave up on the ground game didnt really fight the final choke.

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You could be right from the outset. I think Rockhold had Machda very worried. Notwithstanding, my fighting-form comment is dead-on (like all my posts-ha, ha)....

I personally dont like shotonoobs explanation of forms as, while it is one good reason for doing them, i dont consider it the most important.

Theyre a supplement like running prespecified combos on mitts or a bag, theyre meant to be taken and applied on opponents.

To me, when schools or students dont do this properly i consider it a disconnect with their method and an important reason for doing forms.
I call that dancing, not forms.

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My comment is not in conflict with yours, because I embrace you position and incorporate it. You don't need kata to become a good fighter.

As one of my instructor says, " I can teach a monkey the form, but he wont be able to grasp the applications and use them."

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In my post, I stipulate to that. Your argument & your instructor's argument fails, though when you stop with your overall premise becomes your conclusion. It's (KATA) not about learning MONKEY steps. Human's are not Monkeys. To start to get kata, traditional karate in principle you have to go & start with the bedrock human principles of strength. These are set out in the Shotokan / TSD comparison T.
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If one presumes that kata is bunch of physical steps we mindlessly recite to instructors & judges to show we can memorize physical moves, your & your instructors argument is 1005 percent correct. The latter is the same as a gymnist routine, a floor dance. This is neither the defintion of kata, hyung, forms, poomse, etc. nor it's functionality in self defense.

 

[drop bear]

I watched that fight, and i can tell you his fighting form wasnt the biggest issue.

Machida didnt really have heart, i mean he basically gave up on the ground game didnt really fight the final choke.



I personally dont like shotonoobs explanation of forms as, while it is one good reason for doing them, i dont consider it the most important.

Theyre a supplement like running prespecified combos on mitts or a bag, theyre meant to be taken and applied on opponents.

To me, when schools or students dont do this properly i consider it a disconnect with their method and an important reason for doing forms.
I call that dancing, not forms.

As one of my instructor says, " I can teach a monkey the form, but he wont be able to grasp the applications and use them."

This is why its important to remember theyre just one supplement, not some hidden mystical method tv and lack of knowledge has let folks believe. Dont like em, dont do em. Theyre hardly a neccessity.

Like i said in a previous post, i could teach you the specific punches,blocks, and kicks and we could drill\practice/apply.

But youd be doing many ofnthe same partner drills, and when working alone youd be doing virtually the exact same thing as forms just in no real order.

Its all in preference of how you like to practice.

Yeah drills kata and the bunkai all sort of bang around the same area. I look at where the assertion of proof lies and that becomes my argument. Either the drill is right or the application is right. And when they differ what do you do.

I will change the drill to match the effective technique. In fact I have found people need to be reminded of that or they do the drill to go through the motions.

 

[Laplace_demon]

Machida didnt really have heart, i mean he basically gave up on the ground game didnt really fight the final choke.

You try having a world class athlete like Rockhold on top of you in a bad position (Machida tripped) and tell me Machida doesn't have heart. Bare in mind that Rockhold is on top of that stronger and bigger.

 

[ShotoNoob]

This is why its important to remember theyre just one supplement, not some hidden mystical method tv and lack of knowledge has let folks believe. Dont like em, dont do em. Theyre hardly a neccessity.

Like i said in a previous post, i could teach you the specific punches,blocks, and kicks and we could drill\practice/apply.

But youd be doing many ofnthe same partner drills, and when working alone youd be doing virtually the exact same thing as forms just in no real order.

Its all in preference of how you like to practice.

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You can become a good fighter religiously practicing kihon karate. If you know what kihon "mystically" does. If you don't know what kata is supposed to be doing, as I've pointed out, it is a complete waste of time.
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To excel to traditional karate's highest levels of skill... it's kata that takes you there. This is what all the Okinawan Masters believe.... This is what Funakoshi believed.

 

[Drose427]

You try having a world class athlete like Rockhold on top of you in a bad position (Machida tripped) and tell me Machida doesn't have heart. Bare in mind that Rockhold is on top of that stronger and bigger.

Machida wasnt in it the whole fight...... from the first bell his performance was off. Either he didnt care, or something else was on his mind. He had a bad night and Rockhold took advantage of it.

Hes been regularly successful in far worse situations, it wasnt his technique that was off, it was his head.

 

[Tez3]

You try having a world class athlete like Rockhold on top of you

Oooooo yes please!

Machida had something missing, he wasn't 'in the fight', perhaps it's time to retire, perhaps he was just off, his heart certainly wasn't in it, whether he's lost heart or not I don't know but I was disappointed for him.

 

[ShotoNoob]

You try having a world class athlete like Rockhold on top of you in a bad position (Machida tripped) and tell me Machida doesn't have heart. Bare in mind that Rockhold is on top of that stronger and bigger.

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Traditional karate is ALL ABOUT DEFEATING THE BIGGER & STRONGER. It's the mental clarity + knowledge of technique (in simplified terms) that provides this ability.
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One of the great lessons of Rockhold / Machida is why traditional karate never wants to go to the ground. That was ugly, way ugly. Chalk 1 up for the grapplers.... @ Fox 15.
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The huge Machida FAIL initially scoring hits on Rockhold... Rockhold completely unfazed. This is completely, I mean completely the opposite outcome for traditional Shotokan Kumite. Machida gets a BIG, FAT ZERO in MMA & @ a Shotokan Self-Defense T. At FOX 15, that is.

 

[Laplace_demon]

Oooooo yes please!

Machida had something missing, he wasn't 'in the fight', perhaps it's time to retire, perhaps he was just off, his heart certainly wasn't in it, whether he's lost heart or not I don't know but I was disappointed for him.

That seems a bit convenient to say after the fact. Machida had won his previous fight by TKO within a minute and won performance of the night.

 

[Drose427]

That seems a bit convenient to say after the fact. Machida had won his previous fight by TKO within a minute and won performance of the night.

If you watched the fight, it was pretty obvious.

Heck, your hero Joe Rogan called him out on it a couple times

 

[Laplace_demon]

If you watched the fight, it was pretty obvious.

Heck, your hero Joe Rogan called him out on it a couple times

Doesn't mean he would have survived on the ground against a prime Rockhold. I for one don't think he would regardless. Machida was much sharper against Jones a few years back and still had nothing in the groundgame, despite being a skillfull BJJ practitioner. Size does matter, especially when your opponent is as good or better than you in that phase of the game.

 

[Tez3]

That seems a bit convenient to say after the fact. Machida had won his previous fight by TKO within a minute and won performance of the night.

Fighters aren't machines, despite a friend of mine's nickname ( he was a UFC fighter, thought I'd name drop there lol )all sorts of things can drag a fighter down, it could be a virus/niggling injury, it could be simply having a bad day. I like Machida, as I said I was disappointed for him as he will be for himself. It was a bad day at the office. There's nothing convenient about 'saying it after the fact, because I couldn't say it before the fight could I? His heart and/or head wasn't in that fight and he lost. It's fighting, it happens.

I don't understand though why we are discussing MMA fights on a thread about Shotokan and self defence?

 

[drop bear]

Fighters aren't machines, despite a friend of mine's nickname ( he was a UFC fighter, thought I'd name drop there lol )all sorts of things can drag a fighter down, it could be a virus/niggling injury, it could be simply having a bad day. I like Machida, as I said I was disappointed for him as he will be for himself. It was a bad day at the office. There's nothing convenient about 'saying it after the fact, because I couldn't say it before the fight could I? His heart and/or head wasn't in that fight and he lost. It's fighting, it happens.

I don't understand though why we are discussing MMA fights on a thread about Shotokan and self defence?

Shoto mentioned it as an example of deviating too far from the true karate.

So probably relevant or something.

 

[Laplace_demon]

There's nothing convenient about 'saying it after the fact, because I couldn't say it before the fight could I? His heart and/or head wasn't in that fight and he lost. It's fighting, it happens.

You could have speculated that "it's perhaps time to retire" before the fight, instead of basing it off a single match were he was dominated. I mean, how many people were calling out for Lyotos retirement when he beat Dollaway.... I will bet you most people back then said or thought for themselves: The dragon is back!.

 

[Tez3]

You could have speculated that "it's perhaps time to retire" before the fight, instead given more it off a single match were he was dominated. I mean, how many people were calling out for Lyotos retirement when he beat Dollaway.... I will bet you most people back then said or thought for themselves: The dragon is back!.

What? I wasn't specifically speculating it was time to retire, it was just one thought among many over the reasons he wasn't on form. I've given more reasons as well. Why would I have speculated before the fight? We hadn't seen his lack of form then.
This is way off topic BTW.