Shotokan for self defence.

[Laplace_demon]

Kata is a teaching tool. Makes a lot of sense to save the teaching tools for the experts.

Approaching expert level, not expert level. May I suggest that you don't skip words. A simple word can make quite difference.

Makes a lot of sense to teach cycling before walking... Kata isn't an accurate simulation of reality either. Technique learning and practice should be emphasised for beginner and intermediate students, not patterns. Kata should at most be supplementary. Especially given that it's partially demonstration, making it even less relevant as self defence preparation for beginner, all the way to intermediate students. That is if you argue from the perspective of self defence.

 

[Drose427]

Approaching expert level, not expert level. May I suggest that you don't skip words. A simple word can make quite difference.

Makes a lot of sense to teach cycling before walking... Kata isn't an accurate simulation of reality either. Technique learning and practice should be emphasised for beginner and intermediate students, not patterns. Kata should at most be supplementary. Especially given that it's partially demonstration, making it even less relevant as self defence preparation for beginner, all the way to intermediate students. That is if you argue from the perspective of self defence.

1. Technically Kata IS supplementary. Its one section to other mechanics, the supplement to SD and Free Sparring.

2. It isnt meant to be some ultra accurate realistic sim thats magically gonna make someone able to defend themselves. This isnt The Karate Kid. If you arent drilling techniques within them against resisting opponents throwing nose busters, inside and outside of class, you're missing the point of forms (as intended for SD the other benefits will still be there, but without the pressure and drilling they arent gonna help defend yourself). Most schools do this, in more than one way, at full speed. Why else would many classes do Sd immediately after forms if not to tinker with applications against someone trying to harm you?

3. Generally, kata teaches proper technique...Outside of stances, which some styles deepen for condition, ,many times a move wont have to be changed much if at all. The beginning of Pinan Odan is easily a gi choke. From standing can be done EXACTLY the same way (most proficiently if you slide in), from the ground on your back is the exact same movement as well simply without the need for the block/punch to close the distance. On the ground, the high wrap sets up good head control and positioning to choke your attacker out with their shirt(obviously they wont be in a gi on the street).

A reverse punch in sparring is the same as a reverse punch in forms, simply without the enunciated stances in some styles.

 

[Laplace_demon]

1. Technically Kata IS supplementary. Its one section to other mechanics, the supplement to SD and Free Sparring.

But still over emphasised for beginners.

3. Generally, kata teaches proper technique...
.[/QUOTE]

Kata does not teach you technique alone. It's drowned in other, irrelevant aspects (demonstration value, form) for SD. This is time saved if you only taught sheer technique and practise against targets. You can teach individual aspects of Kata without memorizing and training Kata.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Kata does not teach you technique alone. It's drowned in other, irrelevant aspects (demonstration value, form) for SD. This is time saved if you only taught sheer technique and practise against targets. You can teach individual aspects of Kata without memorizing and training Kata.

This would be another of those conclusions you've reached based on years of training, a solid understanding of forms, and experience teaching, right?

Oh, wait.
You don't have any of that.
Never mind...

 

[Laplace_demon]

This would be another of those conclusions you've reached based on years of training, a solid understanding of forms, and experience teaching, right?
.

Correct. I have trained since I was a kid and my father is shihan in Shotokan. Ouch!

 

[Drose427]

But still over emphasised for beginners.

3. Generally, kata teaches proper technique...
.

Kata does not teach you technique alone. It's drowned in other, irrelevant aspects (demonstration value, form) for SD. This is time saved if you only taught sheer technique and practise against targets. You can teach individual aspects of Kata without memorizing and training Kata.[/QUOTE]

Theyre generally done the same way as the kihon....

So youd be doing the exact same movements from kata..... on pads and partners when applicable, which youd usually being doing with your kata anyway...

Then when youre alone, and have neither partner or pads, drilling the kihon, youd basically be out of order, jumbled up kata.....

So no, there really isnt a bunch of time saved, youre just practicing random kihon over organized kata.


All styles have kata type things.

Boxing has drills with specified series of combos, which many time are drilled alone in shadowboxing(which is exactly like doing a kata) and/or on a bag

Bjj and wrestling have similar transition drills.

None of these hold them off for rising experts.

itd be like teaching you proper technique of a jab or a front kick, but not giving you the understanding of how to apply them to an opponent and go about practing them on your own.

Again yeah i could just teach the kihon, but youd still be drilling alone or with a partner it the exact same you youd be practicing the kata and its applications....

You should know all this considering who you claim your father is...

 

[Dirty Dog]

Correct. I have trained since I was a kid

Odd... a week ago you were a yellow belt with a few months training (albeit already thinking you're better than the black belts).

and my father is shihan in Shotokan. Ouch!

You've made a lot of unsupported claims about your father. You've claimed he was "one of the top 3", but you've also said he was a 5th Dan (which is far from "one of the top 3").
But regardless of who you claim your father was, that really has no bearing on your own knowledge, which, to anybody reading your posts, is clearly pretty minimal. Quite in keeping with your claim to be a yellow belt with a few months of training, but pathetically inadequate for someone with years of training.

 

[Tez3]

Approaching expert level, not expert level. May I suggest that you don't skip words. A simple word can make quite difference.

Makes a lot of sense to teach cycling before walking... Kata isn't an accurate simulation of reality either. Technique learning and practice should be emphasised for beginner and intermediate students, not patterns. Kata should at most be supplementary. Especially given that it's partially demonstration, making it even less relevant as self defence preparation for beginner, all the way to intermediate students. That is if you argue from the perspective of self defence.

May I suggest you spend less time criticising people and more actually learning about the subjects you pontificate on?

 

[Laplace_demon]

Odd... a week ago you were a yellow belt with a few months training (albeit already thinking you're better than the black belts).



You've made a lot of unsupported claims about your father. You've claimed he was "one of the top 3", but you've also said he was a 5th Dan (which is far from "one of the top 3").
But regardless of who you claim your father was, that really has no bearing on your own knowledge, which, to anybody reading your posts, is clearly pretty minimal. Quite in keeping with your claim to be a yellow belt with a few months of training, but pathetically inadequate for someone with years of training.

You do know that Shotokan and ITF TKD are not synonyms, right? My father has competed in JKA in the late 70s and early 80s, collecting gold and silver medals in kumite, in both World and European championships. That would make him a top Karate fighter by definition. You also clearly can't read, since I wrote that it took him 23 years to have a total of 5 dan, and another 7 years for his 6th. I never said how many dan he has as of this day. And he is shihan in the shotokan organisation that he belongs to.

If you think that forms demonstration (Kata) help beginner and intermediate students in self defence scenarios, where the attacker is out to kill or seriously hurt, then we live in separate universes. But I am not suprised that a traditional martial artist would still hold these views in the 2015.

 

[Tez3]

Claiming knowledge vicariously through your father is an interesting way to go.

Kata ( not forms btw in karate) and what you do with it, how we teach it certainly and I know many others do as well is for self defence.
What are the true applications of Kata Iain Abernethy

 

[Steve]

3. Generally, kata teaches proper technique...Outside of stances, which some styles deepen for condition, ,many times a move wont have to be changed much if at all. The beginning of Pinan Odan is easily a gi choke. From standing can be done EXACTLY the same way (most proficiently if you slide in), from the ground on your back is the exact same movement as well simply without the need for the block/punch to close the distance. On the ground, the high wrap sets up good head control and positioning to choke your attacker out with their shirt(obviously they wont be in a gi on the street).

A reverse punch in sparring is the same as a reverse punch in forms, simply without the enunciated stances in some styles.

This is a problem for me. I learned a cross collar gi choke in about 5 minutes. Doing it a thousand times on hundreds of different people with different levels of skill, different neck sizes, different gi sizes, different set ups, and dozens of other small differences, that's how I learned EXACTLY how to execute the technique. Not from the drill.

I think there's plenty of great reasons to do kata. But if learning technique is one of them, I question the usefulness of the exercise. Exploring uses for techniques one already knows? Great. I get it. Learning a technique? Not so much.

 

[Steve]

You do know that Shotokan and ITF TKD are not synonyms, right? My father has competed in JKA in the late 70s and early 80s, collecting gold and silver medals in kumite, in both World and European championships. That would make him a top Karate fighter by definition. You also clearly can't read, since I wrote that it took him 23 years to have a total of 5 dan, and another 7 years for his 6th. I never said how many dan he has as of this day. And he is shihan in the shotokan organisation that he belongs to.

If you think that forms demonstration (Kata) help beginner and intermediate students in self defence scenarios, where the attacker is out to kill or seriously hurt, then we live in separate universes. But I am not suprised that a traditional martial artist would still hold these views in the 2015.

Laplace_demon, if you keep bringing your father up to legitimize your arguments, you're going to have to tell us who he is. The assertion isn't credible unless the source is credible. If you're making things up, please stop. If you're not, then please cite the source so we can independently decide how credible he is. I don't know what it looks like to you, but to me, it's appears you're just saying whatever pops into your head, and then citing some make believe, external authority.

 

[Laplace_demon]

Laplace_demon, if you keep bringing your father up to legitimize your arguments, you're going to have to tell us who he is. The assertion isn't credible unless the source is credible. If you're making things up, please stop. If you're not, then please cite the source so we can independently decide how credible he is. I don't know what it looks like to you, but to me, it's appears you're just saying whatever pops into your head, and then citing some make believe, external authority.

Your moderator initiated the ad hominems. Don't try and make it out like that i write "my father is a karate shihan" in every single post out of nowhere.

 

[Steve]

Your moderator initiated the ad hominems. Don't try and make it out like that i write "my father is a karate shihan" in every single post out of nowhere.

I don't really have a dog in this hunt, but it sure seems like your dad comes up pretty often as support for some questionable assertions.


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[RTKDCMB]

Claiming knowledge vicariously through your father is an interesting way to go.

Maybe he has some kind of genetic memory.

 

[Laplace_demon]

I don't really have a dog in this hunt, but it sure seems like your dad comes up pretty often as support for some questionable assertions.


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Claiming that I lack exposure to Shotokan when I have both trained it and have a father who's a gold medalist in JKA, is not that well thought out. Do you think this makes it less or more likely that I would have experience in Shotokan? Like I care if anyone in here believes it. People who don't even come close to that rank and merits. They are like kindergarden in comparison, yet tell me I lack experience.

 

[Drose427]

Claiming that I lack exposure to Shotokan when I have both trained it and have a father who's a gold medalist in JKA, is not that well thought out. Do you think this makes it less or more likely that I would have experience in Shotokan? Like I care if anyone in here believes it. People who don't even come close to that rank and merits. They are like kindergarden in comparision, yet tell me I lack experience.

We question your experience because you've shown and made yellow belt arguements, told people far superior to yourself they were wrong and you were right, and are clinging to the arrogance by that fact that your father was knowledgeable and accomplished (or so you claim, but thats not the point)

You are not him.

You dont have those accomplishments.
You dont have his rank.

And it shows in your responses.

Making claims online to justify opinions memebers with easily verifiable track records (i.e. BB numbers, a member operating school in korea in another thread, proper history of associations, etc.) have refuted is one thing, but you cant justify it because you say your father was a JKA champ and master.

I can say my uncle was Royce Gracie, Grandfather was taught by Ip Man and my Dad is an world class Boxer from the 80s.

That make it true without proof. Even if it did, if i showed a blatant lack of understanding and knowledge on the 3 it would show their accomplishments mean very little to my ability or knowledge.

You cant keep hiding behind your dad like his accomplishments are also yours.

 

[Laplace_demon]

I can say my uncle was Royce Gracie, Grandfather was taught by Ip Man and my Dad is an world class Boxer from the 80s.

That make it true without proof. Even if it did, if i showed a blatant lack of understanding and knowledge on the 3 it would show their accomplishments mean very little to my ability or knowledge.

You cant keep hiding behind your dad like his accomplishments are also yours.

My father is closer than a grandfather. Your counter has no validity. He has had a big impact on my life and my interest in martial arts, which is most probably inherited.

 

[Gnarlie]

What rank do you hold in Shotokan, Laplace? Just out of interest.

 

[ShotoNoob]

The argument again here is whether form follows function or function follows form.

Whether or not you train the practical application to lean the kata or the kata to learn the practical application.

Personally if you can make the technique work on a resisting opponent of some sort of quality but your kata is messy then you are better equipped to defend yourself than if you have nice kata but then have to manipulate the resistance into compliance and dead drilling.

It just depends where your focus lies.

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In traditional karate, Function follows Form. No bigger illustration of this than Shotokan karate.
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There is no such thing in traditional karate as NICE kata. Kata is not about form, it's about function provided by performing kata true to form.
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Demonstrating the physical form of kata by itself is meaningless in traditional karate, other than you have knowledge of the physical description of kata steps. You can recite the physical steps. It's the foundational internal skills invisible to the uninitiated that matter.
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Kata is not a physical gym routine. It's about getting the mind & body to work in unison--under the guide of the "mental clarity" dimension. Development of Mental discipline is the emphasis.
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I agree you don't need kata to become a good fighter. However, the role of resistance as a training tool is not the emphasis in traditional martial arts, karate.