Shotokan for self defence.

[ShotoNoob]

It's always been my understanding that deep stances(particularly in Japanese karate) are there because when Okinawa karate (which uses high stances) came to the mainland and went to the universities, they begin to focus on conditioning. Which, deep stances out great for.

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That is my understanding also. However, the older styles of karate, particularly Chinese karate do use lower stances in fighting applications. Are the low stances dominant, no.

Conditioning is the big reason we do them deep in my TSD association. One or two takedowns are easier with a good horse stance, but generally we tell our students who ask why we go so deep that conditioning and flexibility or the biggest 2.

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Again, I'm right with you. Yet the strength & flexibility built works in launching power from the whole body. Should you throw or knock down your standing opponent, then sink into a low stance for the finishing-power hand strike to head, solar plexus, etc. This tradition is seen all over traditional karate kumite competition vids....

I believe a lot of things happened in Karate growth that Funakoshi didn't particularly agree with, but he and his students wanted it to spread. So changes had to be made.

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Again, Funakoshi's karate-do evolved into Shotokan & Japanese karate. Yet if we look to Funakoshi and keep that perspective when looking at the more modern & sporting evolutions--we now have a standard on when most of the typical karate practice has strayed too far from principle.... When all the critics of karate become justified....
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I train to principle, not suspended speed balls for kicking. That latter is sporty, recreational stuff.

Just he like how it's common for owners of commercial schools or gyms to make changes to their normal curriculum or classes to appeal to whatever their market is

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Certainly. Traditional karate is very demanding. The general public has neither the time nor inclination to do what it takes to excel.
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This is where Matt Bryers has spearheaded BJJ that is both competent & practical to learn--a winning martial art business strategy.
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To get traditional karate to the tipping point where you can challenge Matt Bryers' guys is years. I would say never shorter than 3, probably 5 years of proper training on average. Once you are there, though, look out.

 

[ShotoNoob]

TOM BLOOM KARATE EXAMPLE: ASHLEY TESORO
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I don't necessarily agree with all expressed in the vid. Yet here is a young woman who started like Drose427... and now exposed to martial arts.... has decided to go the traditional route. Sure, there is a commercial aspect.

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bottom line: TMA is an arduous progression. She's working on it.
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EDIT: Tom Bloom is a Tang Soo Do stylist who began under Chuck Norris Tang Soo Do.
EDIT2: Would love to see a female Tang Soo Do stylist take on Ronda Rousey. No such luck yet....

 

[drop bear]

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How many karateka can do kata according the Masters? How many karateka can meet Gichin Funakoshi's standards for traditional karate training?
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The TRADITIONAL KARATE answer is that the failure is not in the kata (not that kata is perfect, or doesn't have weak points in how it's taught); the failure is in the practitioner to meet the standards DEMANDED BY SUCCESSFUL KATA (KARATE) Practice.
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That's what the video demonstrates, IN MY OPINION.
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NOW TO DO A LITTLE SYNTHESIS (FOR THOSE WHO ASKED ME ABOUT THE KIAI MASTER OVER & OVER), please compare the Shotokan vid I posted above, with the Shotokan vs. Gracie JuiJitus that Matt Bryers posted in the Paul Vunak Thread:

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NOW, do you think the Gracie BJJ is going to be able to handle the Shotokan stylists in my vid the way he did in the Gracie vid?

from a demo you cant really tell much.

Why would you think he wouldn't?

 

[Zero]

TOM BLOOM KARATE EXAMPLE: ASHLEY TESORO
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I don't necessarily agree with all expressed in the vid. Yet here is a young woman who started like Drose427... and now exposed to martial arts.... has decided to go the traditional route. Sure, there is a commercial aspect.

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bottom line: TMA is an arduous progression. She's working on it.
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EDIT: Tom Bloom is a Tang Soo Do stylist who began under Chuck Norris Tang Soo Do.
EDIT2: Would love to see a female Tang Soo Do stylist take on Ronda Rousey. No such luck yet....

Rousey is in great form and shape and formidable. Perhaps unfair from just one clip but I would place my money on Rousey every time over that particular TSD girl (for a start, that TSD girl's hook is horrifically telegraphed...and poor power generation on back kick, again maybe unfair from just one quick vid). As for any other TSD gal...they better have a great counter submission game, Rousey was/is a world class judoka and that is clear from how she finishes her fights! : )

 

[ShotoNoob]

Rousey is in great form and shape and formidable. Perhaps unfair from just one clip but I would place my money on Rousey every time over that particular TSD girl (for a start, that TSD girl's hook is horrifically telegraphed...and poor power generation on back kick, again maybe unfair from just one quick vid). As for any other TSD gal...they better have a great counter submission game, Rousey was/is a world class judoka and that is clear from how she finishes her fights! : )

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Right on, thanks for the critique. The TSD young lady is trying... yet way far, far away.
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Rousey is formidable. I just do NOT see any one in her "class." The Judo base alone gives her a huge advantage, IMO. The opponents who go up against her & lose... no shame....
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A TSD stylist from Tom Bloom karate taking on RR, it's on my wish list!

 

[ShotoNoob]

MACHIDA / ROCKHOLD @ UFC FIGHT NIGHT 15 COMING UP APRIL 18.

 

[Tez3]

Rousey is formidable. I just do NOT see any one in her "class." The Judo base alone gives her a huge advantage

There are at least two girls better than her at Judo, the silver and gold Olympic medallists, perhaps if they came into MMA she would get beaten more easily. However humour apart, the UFC will hand pick her opponents to make sure she has the very best chance of winning until they can wring no more money out of her performances. When people stop talking about her and she's far less marketable their next golden girl will be chosen and they will pick an opponent who can beat Rousey.
When discussing who wins and who loses in the UFC style wise it should be remembered that the first consideration is money, the UFC is a business, opponents are chosen to reflect those business interests not totally fair and impartial match making.

 

[Drose427]

There are at least two girls better than her at Judo, the silver and gold Olympic medallists, perhaps if they came into MMA she would get beaten more easily. However humour apart, the UFC will hand pick her opponents to make sure she has the very best chance of winning until they can wring no more money out of her performances. When people stop talking about her and she's far less marketable their next golden girl will be chosen and they will pick an opponent who can beat Rousey.
When discussing who wins and who loses in the UFC style wise it should be remembered that the first consideration is money, the UFC is a business, opponents are chosen to reflect those business interests not totally fair and impartial match making.

Yup,

Just like connor Macgregor getting a title when there were several fighters above him for it. He didnt earn it, he beat siver then made a scene in front of Aldos family.

Also a reason some superfights never have and never will take place. I.e. Jones vs Silva

Milking it makes Dana a lot more money than not worrying about drama and fan favoritism

 

[Zero]

There are at least two girls better than her at Judo, the silver and gold Olympic medallists, perhaps if they came into MMA she would get beaten more easily. However humour apart, the UFC will hand pick her opponents to make sure she has the very best chance of winning until they can wring no more money out of her performances. When people stop talking about her and she's far less marketable their next golden girl will be chosen and they will pick an opponent who can beat Rousey.
When discussing who wins and who loses in the UFC style wise it should be remembered that the first consideration is money, the UFC is a business, opponents are chosen to reflect those business interests not totally fair and impartial match making.

So cynical...so true...

And she probably did deserve/merit if from the get go, but she was handed the initial top slot in her new weight division not from fighting in UFC but coming straight over/out of the subsumed/defunct Strike Force. But again, she does kick butt.

Given she is now building up experience in striking it may be that the higher ranked female judoka would now first need to do some cross-training to have a good shot at beating her, rather than coming to UFC straight from judo...

 

[Zero]

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Right on, thanks for the critique. The TSD young lady is trying... yet way far, far away.

She is pretty darn good at doing a plait (sp?) though, will give her that. Got a young daughter so notice those things now, particularly as my attempts have resulted in nothing more than abominations for the poor child!! hehe! : )

 

[Zero]

Uggh, who is still stuck at work (on UK time)?!! What a drag, was meant to be going out for drinks but got shafted, so to speak!!! Almost consumed my last lot of chicken in the work fridge also, things are looking real GRIM.

 

[ShotoNoob]

There are at least two girls better than her at Judo, the silver and gold Olympic medallists, perhaps if they came into MMA she would get beaten more easily. However humour apart, the UFC will hand pick her opponents to make sure she has the very best chance of winning until they can wring no more money out of her performances. When people stop talking about her and she's far less marketable their next golden girl will be chosen and they will pick an opponent who can beat Rousey.
When discussing who wins and who loses in the UFC style wise it should be remembered that the first consideration is money, the UFC is a business, opponents are chosen to reflect those business interests not totally fair and impartial match making.

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I'm glad more than one agrees with taking the larger view. Within that, I think there are some very good match ups in MMA. The whole 'pressure testing' that Chris Parker and others are pointing to in a sparring partner; it does exist in MMA.
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I'm particularly looking forward to the Machida (karate-base) / Rockhold (MMA kickboxing) bout coming up April 18 @ UFC on Fox 15. Welcome any T or commentary from MT here....

 

[Tez3]

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I'm glad more than one agrees with taking the larger view. Within that, I think there are some very good match ups in MMA. The whole 'pressure testing' that Chris Parker and others are pointing to in a sparring partner; it does exist in MMA.
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I'm particularly looking forward to the Machida (karate-base) / Rockhold (MMA kickboxing) bout coming up April 18 @ UFC on Fox 15. Welcome any T or commentary from MT here....

I'm not a fan of the UFC ( they tried to sue a lot of us in the UK lol) it's a big company and it annoys me when people think it's the be all and end all of MMA comps. It is what it is.

 

[ShotoNoob]

I'm not a fan of the UFC ( they tried to sue a lot of us in the UK lol) it's a big company and it annoys me when people think it's the be all and end all of MMA comps. It is what it is.

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Agreed on the typical commercialism you see in many large companies.... The UFC gets a lot of fighter complaints.... about contracts & such. Randy Couture was a god to them, then at the end was a dog to them..... Yeesh....

 

[Steve]

The antitrust lawsuit against the UFC is ongoing, and I think they have an excellent case. But, at the same time, anyone making a decent living doing MMA right now, and frankly, most of those people making a decent living in the West doing BJJ, Judo, Muay Thai or any of the ancillary MAs related to MMA owe it all to the UFC. MMA now is a completely different animal than prior to 2003.

Regarding Rousey and the fight business, it's entertainment first. It's a spectator sport, and so the promoters have to play the game to drum up interest in the fights and the fighters. Rousey is a bona fide badass and no one can currently tough her. Her fighter's instincts, her technical skill and her particular brand of crazy make her almost unbeatable. When (if) she loses in the octagon, it will be roughly equivalent to Buster Douglas defeating Mike Tyson. She is that dominant.

 

[ShotoNoob]

The antitrust lawsuit against the UFC is ongoing, and I think they have an excellent case. But, at the same time, anyone making a decent living doing MMA right now, and frankly, most of those people making a decent living in the West doing BJJ, Judo, Muay Thai or any of the ancillary MAs related to MMA owe it all to the UFC. MMA now is a completely different animal than prior to 2003

Agreed...

Regarding Rousey and the fight business, it's entertainment first. It's a spectator sport, and so the promoters have to play the game to drum up interest in the fights and the fighters. Rousey is a bona fide badass and no one can currently tough her. Her fighter's instincts, her technical skill and her particular brand of crazy make her almost unbeatable. When (if) she loses in the octagon, it will be roughly equivalent to Buster Douglas defeating Mike Tyson. She is that dominant.

Agreed...

 

[Laplace_demon]

I think Kata is a nice feature of Shotokan and not a total waiste. I do contend however that it should be reserved for practitioners approaching expert level (which ever belt it might be), than to drill beginner students with heavy theory and no application. Beginners should be trained evenly in application/theory. Yet they almost always end up in endless kata and little application. I don't think this serves their interest from a self defence perspective.

 

[Tez3]

I think Kata is a nice feature of Shotokan and not a total waiste. I do contend however that it should be reserved for practitioners approaching expert level (which ever belt it might be), than to drill beginner students with heavy theory and no application. Beginners should be trained evenly in application/theory. Yet they almost always end up in endless kata and little application. I don't think this serves their interest from a self defence perspective.

I don't see any reason to keep kata for 'experts', students need to learn and understand all aspects of karate.
I don't know anywhere that drills beginners with theory and nothing else. I also don't know anywhere that just trains kata to the detriment of everything else.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I think Kata is a nice feature of Shotokan and not a total waiste. I do contend however that it should be reserved for practitioners approaching expert level (which ever belt it might be), than to drill beginner students with heavy theory and no application. Beginners should be trained evenly in application/theory. Yet they almost always end up in endless kata and little application. I don't think this serves their interest from a self defence perspective.

Kata is a teaching tool. Makes a lot of sense to save the teaching tools for the experts.

 

[drop bear]

The argument again here is whether form follows function or function follows form.

Whether or not you train the practical application to lean the kata or the kata to learn the practical application.

Personally if you can make the technique work on a resisting opponent of some sort of quality but your kata is messy then you are better equipped to defend yourself than if you have nice kata but then have to manipulate the resistance into compliance and dead drilling.

It just depends where your focus lies.