Shotokan for self defence.

[RTKDCMB]

that is still relying on the idea that ptsd is consistent to the level of trauma suffered. And I don't see how it is.

It is much more complicated than that as it depends on a number of factors including the human factor and the person's state of mind at the time.

Because we can have identical incidents where one person suffers ptsd and another does not.

There are far too many variable for two incidents to be identical.

 

[ShotoNoob]

You do realize thats a demonstration of a drill for the class and not the drill itself right?

|
I like how you isolated that inaccuracy out. If we reference a video demonstrating a point, the video should be relevant to the specific point. I think the vid would have been acceptable as a lead-in.... continued below....

Im saying whats most realistic is drilling where you can actually punch to the face, do takedowns, or even hit specific targets that will drop a guy like the groin.

|
...But a vid of the actual drill should have been the follow-up.... You take it a farther with easily-damaged targets. Not typically what traditional Shotokan trains under it's rule set....

Especially when your average assailant isnt going to bother with footwork, circling, throw a myriad of kicks, etc.

Ive never seen a drunk guy at a bar or a cocky frat boy do either or those. / usually its just some crazy uncontrolled flailing towards the head....

|
Again, the relevant point. Shotokan self defense is designed against the types of common attacks you speak of.

Which is something most schools replicate in SD, not Free Sparring....

|
There's the common tendency to take a part of the traditional karate curriculum out of context. The parts of the curriculum are not isolated, unrelated drills. Moreover, there's a safety element built into traditional karate, particularly the Japanese styles onward.
|
There's too much 'backward' extrapolation; such as if head punches aren't allowed in sparring, the karateka of that style can't conceive of a punch to the head.
|
As I've said, you're the instructor.....

 

[ShotoNoob]

Here is some simple bunkai that gives a basic understanding of the techniques in the kata.

Now to my understanding, the Heian series of kata were instructional kata, not necessarily designed as a fighting system. The bunkai shown here is not realistic in that it is choreographed but that doesn't take away from its primary purpose, giving a simple explanation of the kata, but again kihon....

|
I always preface my talks about Shotokan in saying it's not my favorite style. OTOH, Shotokan makes an excellent teaching style. And so I want to key off of your term 'INSTRUCTIONAL...."
|
The Ian A. vid I edited out shows some more effective application that the traditional Heian kata. I think most all serious karateka can accept that. In defense of Shotokan tradition, the Ian A. interpretations to me, seems to be more Okinawan in style. So why not practice Okinawan karate if that is your criticism of Shotokan.
|
IMO, the value of Shotokan is that as conventionally taught, it's more of a KISS karate. Let's not overcomplicated things. Let's keep it simple & let's do SIMPLE right.
|
THAT'S THE FIRST THING THE HEIAN KATA SO DEMONSTRATED IN THE VID ARE TRYING TO GET ACROSS.

p.s. Huge thread, as it should be....

 

[ShotoNoob]

And here specifically no.

It is not my argument that kata does not work. It is that kata is not evidence in itself.

|
I just made a post about this @ another thread. If you look at the traditional karate curriculum, take for instance the JKA Shotokan karate, or other Shotokan sub-style, the parts are to function in that the sum of the parts is not only necessary; the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. And that's not the final answer to your supposition, which same was perfect for discussion purposes.
|
So isolating out kata, technically speaking, is incompetent by traditional karate principles.

 

[ShotoNoob]

...Hmm. It's all rather stylized. Many of the techniques could work, more or less, although they would look a bit different against a less stylized attack. Others seem rather impractical, regardless of the style of attack. None of it seems as realistic as what Abernathy was showing in your second and third video. None are as bad as the first sequence in the first video you posted.

|
Now again, I want to preface my vid with some specifics, which is often omitted when these are use for illustration.

1. It is a demo, not an actual fight.
2. The karateka display some athletically trained ability considerable compared to average karate practitioner.

With those set forth........................
|
The value of the Heian kata (bunkai) vid I quoted from K_MAN is that it builds this:

 

[drop bear]

|
I just made a post about this @ another thread. If you look at the traditional karate curriculum, take for instance the JKA Shotokan karate, or other Shotokan sub-style, the parts are to function in that the sum of the parts is not only necessary; the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. And that's not the final answer to your supposition, which same was perfect for discussion purposes.
|
So isolating out kata, technically speaking, is incompetent by traditional karate principles.

You are basing the weight of evidence on the wrong thing. It is assumed kata has a practical application and that should it fall short of the ideal then the kata is not taken to task,the practitioner is for not understanding the kata.

Which is training based on a house of cards.

If the kata is found wanting and you get smashed. It is an issue you can never fix because all the understanding in the universe wont fix a brocken technique.

 

[ShotoNoob]

You are basing the weight of evidence on the wrong thing. It is assumed kata has a practical application and that should it fall short of the ideal then the kata is not taken to task,the practitioner is for not understanding the kata.

Which is training based on a house of cards.

If the kata is found wanting and you get smashed. It is an issue you can never fix because all the understanding in the universe wont fix a brocken technique.

|
I will agree completely with the addition of the following qualifier: IN YOUR OPINION.
|
EDIT: Just posted a Shotokan kumite demonstration vid. See above. MY criticism of the vid is that the intro defines karate as a set of martial techniques (pretty good list, IMO). Traditional karate is not a set of techniques for fighting. That is an application, an outward observation....

 

[ShotoNoob]

You are basing the weight of evidence on the wrong thing. It is assumed kata has a practical application and that should it fall short of the ideal then the kata is not taken to task,the practitioner is for not understanding the kata.

|
How many karateka can do kata according the Masters? How many karateka can meet Gichin Funakoshi's standards for traditional karate training?
|
The TRADITIONAL KARATE answer is that the failure is not in the kata (not that kata is perfect, or doesn't have weak points in how it's taught); the failure is in the practitioner to meet the standards DEMANDED BY SUCCESSFUL KATA (KARATE) Practice.
|
That's what the video demonstrates, IN MY OPINION.
|
NOW TO DO A LITTLE SYNTHESIS (FOR THOSE WHO ASKED ME ABOUT THE KIAI MASTER OVER & OVER), please compare the Shotokan vid I posted above, with the Shotokan vs. Gracie JuiJitus that Matt Bryers posted in the Paul Vunak Thread:

|
NOW, do you think the Gracie BJJ is going to be able to handle the Shotokan stylists in my vid the way he did in the Gracie vid?

 

[Zero]

|
Now again, I want to preface my vid with some specifics, which is often omitted when these are use for illustration.

1. It is a demo, not an actual fight.
2. The karateka display some athletically trained ability considerable compared to average karate practitioner.

With those set forth........................
|
The value of the Heian kata (bunkai) vid I quoted from K_MAN is that it builds this:

Enjoyable vid, it was a fun watch with, umm, plenty of blood : )

 

[Tez3]

Enjoyable vid, it was a fun watch with, umm, plenty of blood : )

Glad I'm not washing those Gis!
Flashy, entertaining video but it does give a good flavour of karate, when done not for video you can actually see that without the extraneous movements for the video karate strikes will be effective, look at the strikes themselves not necessarily the long showy stances which not all karate styles do btw. I wouldn't say that a flying sidekick is a good defensive move ( unless of course your opponent is on a pony or small horse....joke!) but it did look good, shows we can do the TKD flashy stuff too ( well not me personally, my old bones won't make it though I do a very nice sidekick to the knee)
As with ALL videos you have to keep the purpose it was made in mind but you can see there's some very good strikes available to the karateka.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Enjoyable vid, it was a fun watch with, umm, plenty of blood : )

|
Yeah, theatrical as a I prefaced. Beats run-of-mill UFC advertising....

Glad I'm not washing those Gis!
Flashy, entertaining video but it does give a good flavour of karate, when done not for video you can actually see that without the extraneous movements for the video karate strikes will be effective, look at the strikes themselves not necessarily the long showy stances which not all karate styles do btw. I wouldn't say that a flying sidekick is a good defensive move ( unless of course your opponent is on a pony or small horse....joke!) but it did look good, shows we can do the TKD flashy stuff too ( well not me personally, my old bones won't make it though I do a very nice sidekick to the knee)
As with ALL videos you have to keep the purpose it was made in mind but you can see there's some very good strikes available to the karateka.

|
That's essentially what I was trying to get across. You don't see the typical bouncing around / reverse speed punch of run-of-mill sport karate.
|
The 'extraneous' moves are a separate issue.... traditional karate has a different foundation than the 'natural' fighting & kickboxing claim contact karate has. They are not just using 'long showy stances' to look good. It's a legitimate part of the Shotokan karate style. Same for traditional TKD.

BOTTOM LINE: These Shotokan guys are the contrast to the Gerard Grodeau KYO-kickboxing types. Their demonstration of kata is very, very good by my martial art evaluation, forget formal kata competition...

 

[Paul_D]

It is assumed kata has a practical application

It's not assumed at all, what do you think kata was invented for? They didnt; have you-tube and most people where illiterate, so the only way to record tehcnaiuws was physically, they didn't invent kata's to win plastic trophies in competitions.

should it fall short of the ideal then the kata is not taken to task,the practitioner is for not understanding the kata.

By your logic then, if I plumb my washing machine in incorrectly and it floods my kitchen it's the fault isn't mine for not following the instructions, it's the of the washing machine.

If your interpretation of the kata movement doesn't work then of course it's your fault, it's not the kata's fault you don't understand it.

 

[Drose427]

It's not assumed at all, what do you think kata was invented for? They didnt; have you-tube and most people where illiterate, so the only way to record tehcnaiuws was physically, they didn't invent kata's to win plastic trophies in competitions.


By your logic then, if I plumb my washing machine in incorrectly and it floods my kitchen it's the fault isn't mine for not following the instructions, it's the of the washing machine.

If your interpretation of the kata movement doesn't work then of course it's your fault, it's not the kata's fault you don't understand it.

I got one too!

Is it algebras fault you dont understand Matrices?

 

[RTKDCMB]

There's too much 'backward' extrapolation; such as if head punches aren't allowed in sparring, the karateka of that style can't conceive of a punch to the head.

There is precedence for coming to that conclusion. I have personally seen students from other TKD schools train with us that I have had to repeatedly tell to keep their hands up A couple of weeks ago we had a young girl with a black belt from one of those schools she stated that she wasn't used to using her hands.

 

[ShotoNoob]

There is precedence for coming to that conclusion. I have personally seen students from other TKD schools train with us that I have had to repeatedly tell to keep their hands up A couple of weeks ago we had a young girl with a black belt from one of those schools she stated that she wasn't used to using her hands.

|
Yes I agree. We have this syndrome in our own dojo.
|
That's one reason for the pressure testing of sparring in the MMA arena, at a RBSD environment such as you espouse, or karate sparring which is more akin to traditional karate which, first off in kihon, trains punches to the head.

 

[Tez3]

They are not just using 'long showy stances' to look good. It's a legitimate part of the Shotokan karate style. Same for traditional TKD.

Ah but my Wado trained brain however says that long stances aren't necessary, we don't do those. To my eyes they are too long.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Ah but my Wado trained brain however says that long stances aren't necessary, we don't do those. To my eyes they are too long.

|
Of course such low stances require more thought in action. It's not necessary. Yet Shotokan has a martial reason for the low stances. Wado moves back away from that principle, according to you. It's why looking @ different style's help's frame the issues.
|
To me, Gichin Funakoshi had a definite reason for the low stances. These guys can fight powerfully from low stances. Is there a lesson here? I think so.
|
Do I myself fight from such low stances. Rarely. And I mean rarely. Do I fight from traditional karate stances such as front stance or lunge stance or horse stance (Shotokan) modified higher. Yes. I never use boxing stances, kickboxing stances or guards, or 'footwork.' NEVER.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Ah but my Wado trained brain however says that long stances aren't necessary, we don't do those. To my eyes they are too long.

|
As I continue to say, I personally won't train Shotokan, I don't like it. Yet as representation of traditional karate for most of us, I've really grown to appreciate it's teachings. Especially the flaws....

 

[Drose427]

|
As I continue to say, I personally won't train Shotokan, I don't like it. Yet as representation of traditional karate for most of us, I've really grown to appreciate it's teachings. Especially the flaws....

It's always been my understanding that deep stances(particularly in Japanese karate) are there because when Okinawa karate (which uses high stances) came to the mainland and went to the universities, they begin to focus on conditioning. Which, deep stances out great for.

Conditioning is the big reason we do them deep in my TSD association. One or two takedowns are easier with a good horse stance, but generally we tell our students who ask why we go so deep that conditioning and flexibility or the biggest 2.

I believe a lot of things happened in Karate growth that Funakoshi didn't particularly agree with, but he and his students wanted it to spread. So changes had to be made.

Justhe like how it's common for owners of commercial schools or gyms to make changes to their normal curriculum or classes to appeal to whatever their market is

 

[ShotoNoob]

HERE'S SOME SHOTOKAN "SELF DEFENSE" I'M NOT HOT ON"

|
Brief Negative: I think some of the conventions with knifehand have been changed to much from the Okinawan origins.
Brief Positive: Who says traditional karate kumite is a speed reverse punch to the body....
|
EDIT: I do like the vid as a way to meet girls....