Shotokan for self defence.

[Tez3]

Yet we have other artists who fight in a similar fashion at an equal, if not superior level who don't train in kata at all.

If Muay Thai and Kyokushin look similar during combat, what's the point of Kyokushin's katas if the end result is looking exactly like a kickboxing style w/o katas? Couldn't you simply bypass the katas entirely and still perform high level Kyokushin?

People like to train in different ways, some are visual learners, some can just be told how to do things. Others will take weeks to learn one technique as they like to pull it to pieces examining every nuance before using it, others have an instinctive appreciation for techniques which means they can do them after being shown just once. The end result will be the same but we all gravitate towards a style of learning that suits us so why worry about some who do katas when others don't. It's a choice.

 

[drop bear]

I'd do it providing that my opponent has to abide by the normal rules that they train for and I abide by the normal rules that I train for. Which means I don't have to wear protective gear, wear their little shorts, listen to anything the referee says, nor can he interfere in anything I do and the opponent is NOT allowed to tap out and there are no time outs. Oh, and the fight takes place in some other locale besides the controlled environment of the ring/octagon.

too deadly to spar.

 

[Drose427]

Are you equating self defence with war?

No I'm trying to explain to someone who's clearly not had to fight for his life, that it isn't the same as pre match jitters.

When you actually live through a SD potential life or death situation, like combat, or being jumped and beaten outside of a Double 8 By 2 gentlemen twice your size, you'll understand how much more intimidating or psychologicallly damaging it is than stepping into a safe, controlled environment with someone of comparable size and skill.

Saying the fear is the same as full on life/death SD shows you havent ever had to really fear for your life.

If you are achieving a similar result with two methods. Why is one method superior?

This is what we've been telling Hanzou for a long time now.

But HE doesn't like forms,

 

[Tez3]

too deadly to spar.

You don't know whether he is or not. So that was a bit snarky.

 

[drop bear]

You misunderstand again. PTSD can be caused by any traumatic event such as being attacked, raped, threatened, stalked etc.

do we know enough about ptsd to accurately predict a self defence situation will cause it and a ring fight wont?

 

[drop bear]

No I'm trying to explain to someone who's clearly not had to fight for his life, that it isn't the same as pre match jitters.

When you actually live through a SD potential life or death situation, like combat, or being jumped and beaten outside of a Double 8 By 2 gentlemen twice your size, you'll understand how much more intimidating or psychologicallly damaging it is than stepping into a safe, controlled environment with someone of comparable size and skill.

Saying the fear is the same as full on life/death SD shows you havent ever had to really fear for your life.



This is what we've been telling Hanzou for a long time now.

But HE doesn't like forms,

I have done both soo your conclusions are out.

And hanzou doesn't have to like forms if he doesn't want to.

 

[drop bear]

You don't know whether he is or not. So that was a bit snarky.

No the too deadly to spar is a real thing. Not just a tsd thing.

 

[Drose427]

do we know enough about ptsd to accurately predict a self defence situation will cause it and a ring fight wont?

Name one known MMA fighter who has developed PTSD..........

It's not difficult find people seeking treatment for PTSD after combat, being shot in the street, raped, beaten within an inch of their lives, etc.

I have done both soo your conclusions are out.

And hanzou doesn't have to like forms if he doesn't want to.

Considering you've been attempting to say fearing for your life or the life of someone close to you is the same as worrying about getting punched I'm the face or losing pride in an environment with a safety net, I find that hard to believe.

And right, he doesn't have to. But that doesn't mean he's right about them being useless or that not doing them is some super secret better method.

Lots of fighters in kickboxing and MMA did and still do forms and their Karate Striking is the same quality as Muay Thai or savate.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

No the too deadly to spar is a real thing. Not just a tsd thing.

Out of curiosity, where did you get TSD in a Shotokan thread?

 

[Kong Soo Do]

And hanzou doesn't have to like forms if he doesn't want to.

No, he doesn't have to like them. But commenting on the effectiveness of a training technique he is ignorant on is, well...ignorant.

 

[Tez3]

No the too deadly to spar is a real thing. Not just a tsd thing.

Still snarky

do we know enough about ptsd to accurately predict a self defence situation will cause it and a ring fight wont?

Is competitive fighting a traumatic event? I have two military psyche nurses who fight plus our other military fighters who have been in Afghan and Iraq who say no, competitive fighting is fun.

And hanzou doesn't have to like forms if he doesn't want to.

No one said he has to like them, but his not liking them doesn't meant he gets to rubbish them with impunity.

 

[OldKarateGuy]

I read this entire thread, some parts twice and I have a headache. I did kodokan judo for about 20 years, and then switched to JKA, later to tsd because of a move, no JKA school nearby but have maintained shotokan training too, 20 years now. I was a cop for 32 years overlapping judo to JKA. I was in many fights and used a blunt object when I could. Did a (very) little BJJ early on with the Gracies when they first came to US. Just my opinion: grappling stuff was very useful in work when actually handcuffing or taking down suspects, but limited because it's good only for one bad guy at a time. In a real fight, it's not always safe to assume only one opponent, so it's better to stand up and punch them out (see 'blunt object', also kick, sweep, etc). Karate kata were very useful to me in training for the street, maybe because I learned power and balance, speed...I don't know that I actually learned fighting combinations, but it's very hard to separate karate training into what worked for real world and what didn't. It's a package. So talk of dropping kata from MA training for real world results seems rather...stupid to me. Just my opinion. Maybe others can do without kata. I can't. I have to do the old fashioned kata, kihon, kumite thing to make it work. But it's not theoretical or tournament in my case. I have been in a lot of fights/scuffles/resisting/pushing-and-shoving/drunken-brawls/spouse-stabbing/nutcase/whacked-on-drugs/whatever in my career. I did kata in both judo and karate. It helped.

 

[drop bear]

Still snarky




Is competitive fighting a traumatic event? I have two military psyche nurses who fight plus our other military fighters who have been in Afghan and Iraq who say no, competitive fighting is fun.




No one said he has to like them, but his not liking them doesn't meant he gets to rubbish them with impunity.

see i still wouldn't have compared your average self defence or a ring fight to war.

It would be taken for granted that war would be more traumatic.

If you think someone is wrong then spell out where they are wrong. If the conversation is infuriating you stop having it.

I mean why do you care?
(see what I did there?)

 

[drop bear]

Out of curiosity, where did you get TSD in a Shotokan thread?

Supposed to be ksd.

The no rules challenge match in a car park is a ploy people use to ego stroke generally.
creating so many conditions as to never get challenged.

Sometimes they actually go ahead. But they don't achieve much.

 

[Drose427]

see i still wouldn't have compared your average self defence or a ring fight to war.

It would be taken for granted that war would be more traumatic.

If you think someone is wrong then spell out where they are wrong. If the conversation is infuriating you stop having it.

I mean why do you care?
(see what I did there?)

You don't have to compare to war.

Show me one MMA fighter who got PTSD from the cage.

you can find 100 PYDD patients who have it because of being raped, jumped, stabbed, or beaten In street SD.

If the psychological impact in the cage was the same, we'd see PTSD among fighters.

 

[Tez3]

yes I saw, you misunderstood the post again then posted stuff that doesn't make sense so that we have no idea what you are talking about.

No one is comparing a competitive fight to war other than you and now you are saying you didn't.

Where did I say the conversation is irritating me? Where did that spring from? Why do I care about what?[/QUOTE]

 

[Tez3]

Supposed to be ksd.

The no rules challenge match in a car park is a ploy people use to ego stroke generally.
creating so many conditions as to never get challenged.

Sometimes they actually go ahead. But they don't achieve much.

Guess you haven't met the travellers here lol, when they challenge to a 'car park' fight it's for real. Quite entertaining actually, I believe there's even You Tube videos of their fights.

 

[Hanzou]

No, he doesn't have to like them. But commenting on the effectiveness of a training technique he is ignorant on is, well...ignorant.

You act as if I'm the first person in the history of martial arts to discard forms/kata from practice.

I've done kata, so I'm hardly ignorant of it. I simply believe that it's an obsolete method of training. Your mileage may vary.

 

[drop bear]

You don't have to compare to war.

Show me one MMA fighter who got PTSD from the cage.

you can find 100 PYDD patients who have it because of being raped, jumped, stabbed, or beaten In street SD.

If the psychological impact in the cage was the same, we'd see PTSD among fighters.

ptsd is not defined by the level of psychological impact though. Not everybody who goes through bad stuff gets ptsd.

So it is not a good gauge to define what is traumatic and what isn't.

 

[drop bear]

Guess you haven't met the travellers here lol, when they challenge to a 'car park' fight it's for real. Quite entertaining actually, I believe there's even You Tube videos of their fights.

I was thinking about that when I wrote the post.