Shotokan for self defence.

[RTKDCMB]

I thought it was because i was not agreeing.

There's a difference between not agreeing with someone and thinking you know better than those who are knowledgeable on the subject. It feels like an example of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

 

[Tez3]

so you are not proving that you are right at this very moment?

Right about what? I have no idea what you are talking about and you haven't answered my question.

 

[Tez3]

To fight using range and distance.

If you 'outfight' them it means you are better than them ie "Mohammed Ali outfought most of his opponents" it doesn't mean to fight using range and distance. What means that is "to fight using range and distance."

 

[Kong Soo Do]

So prancing/dancing around in solo patterns is a better for self defense practice than sparring/rolling/randori training?

Hilarious.

Congratulations, you've demonstrated that you don't have a CLUE what you're talking about. Well done.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Considering that several highly effective arts don't have kata or bunkai, does one really need to understand it?

Quite apparent that you don't.

 

[drop bear]

If you 'outfight' them it means you are better than them ie "Mohammed Ali outfought most of his opponents" it doesn't mean to fight using range and distance. What means that is "to fight using range and distance."

or it means what i said.
outfighting - definition of outfighting by The Free Dictionary

Speaking of posting in a disrespectful manner. Constantly correcting peoples English is incredibly irritating.

 

[Tez3]

English definition of “outfight”
See all translations
outfight
verb [T] uk /ˌaʊtˈfaɪt/ ( past tense and past participle outfought) us
fight better than someone: The former heavyweight champion was outwitted and outfought.

From the Cambridge Dictionary.

 

[Tez3]

English Dictionary

Definitions
verb
-fights, -fighting, -fought

1. 
   
2. (transitive) to surpass in fighting
3. (transitive) (obsolete) to conquer
4. (intransitive) (obsolete) to escape by means of fighting

 

[Tez3]

The Free Dictionary

outfight
v. t. 1. to exceed in fighting; fight more competently; as, He outfought his challengers; the boxer outfought his opponent for eight rounds but lost the bout in the ninth on a knockout.
2. to defeat in a battle; as, The French forces outfought the Germans.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Proven effective when propped up by other MA systems.

I would love to see a "pure" Karateka enter a NHB competition and see how he does. The last one that did got obliterated pretty quickly back in the early UFC.

I'd do it providing that my opponent has to abide by the normal rules that they train for and I abide by the normal rules that I train for. Which means I don't have to wear protective gear, wear their little shorts, listen to anything the referee says, nor can he interfere in anything I do and the opponent is NOT allowed to tap out and there are no time outs. Oh, and the fight takes place in some other locale besides the controlled environment of the ring/octagon.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Considering that we don't see any expression of kata within the sparring, competitive, or combative aspect of those arts...

Sure you do. Everything they do (and quite a bit more) is contained in kata and has been since well before the oldest competitor was born. The fact that you don't see it expressed is because you don't know what you're talking about.

Let's cut to the chase. We're right and you're wrong. Simple as that. Have a nice day.

 

[Tez3]

Why does the 'proof' that a martial art works for self defence have to be provided by fighting in a competition? I can understand trying to prove an art is good for a specific competition type by competing in those competitions but fail to see why something for a different purpose must prove itself in a competitive fight.

 

[Hanzou]

And this worries you why?

Each to their own, if that's what you think. Why are you spending so much time trying to debunk what we do, why does it matter to you?

Over the years here we've had all sorts of training posts, some people like to hit trees, some like to break pieces of wood, others toughen up their shins by hitting with rolling pins and there's more but the thing is it doesn't impact on anyone else what they do.

Basically I have to think you are trolling, looking to irritate karateka over the way they train. Kata and bunkai aren't compulsory, many don't do either, many do both but what business is it of yours? Do we constantly rubbish the way you train? Do we say well that's obviously not going to work? Do we make snarky comments about your training being like a cult like your offsider?

Well the argument is that my karate training was poor because I didnt learn the greatness of kata, or its bunkai. Instead, I bypassed that and simply took up Bjj instead, which is acknowledged as a superior grappling method to that found in the katas. So I'm just curious as to why you would need to know the kata or the bunkai at all, when all you would need to do is pick up Judo or Bjj.

 

[Hanzou]

Sure you do. Everything they do (and quite a bit more) is contained in kata and has been since well before the oldest competitor was born. The fact that you don't see it expressed is because you don't know what you're talking about.

Let's cut to the chase. We're right and you're wrong. Simple as that. Have a nice day.

Yet we have other artists who fight in a similar fashion at an equal, if not superior level who don't train in kata at all.

If Muay Thai and Kyokushin look similar during combat, what's the point of Kyokushin's katas if the end result is looking exactly like a kickboxing style w/o katas? Couldn't you simply bypass the katas entirely and still perform high level Kyokushin?

 

[drop bear]

The Free Dictionary

outfight
v. t. 1. to exceed in fighting; fight more competently; as, He outfought his challengers; the boxer outfought his opponent for eight rounds but lost the bout in the ninth on a knockout.
2. to defeat in a battle; as, The French forces outfought the Germans.

There's a sign on the wall but she wants to be sure
'Cause you know sometimes words have two meanings

you don't feel you are trying too hard to be right here?

 

[Drose427]

That is a big call by the way. There are a lot of assumptions.

What are you basing that on

Growing up in indianapolis, I've been in both. A lot of the guys at the gym I go to on occasion and guys from my association who done both have been deployed and competed.

Jitters during a match is a far cry from truly fearing for your life (which no one does in the ring).

You don't see MMA causing PTSD after all

 

[drop bear]

Growing up in indianapolis, I've been in both. A lot of the guys at the gym I go to on occasion and guys from my association who done both have been deployed and competed.

Jitters during a match is a far cry from truly fearing for your life (which no one does in the ring).

You don't see MMA causing PTSD after all

Are you equating self defence with war?

 

[drop bear]

Yet we have other artists who fight in a similar fashion at an equal, if not superior level who don't train in kata at all.

If Muay Thai and Kyokushin look similar during combat, what's the point of Kyokushin's katas if the end result is looking exactly like a kickboxing style w/o katas? Couldn't you simply bypass the katas entirely and still perform high level Kyokushin?

If you are achieving a similar result with two methods. Why is one method superior?

 

[Tez3]

Well the argument is that my karate training was poor because I didnt learn the greatness of kata, or its bunkai. Instead, I bypassed that and simply took up Bjj instead, which is acknowledged as a superior grappling method to that found in the katas. So I'm just curious as to why you would need to know the kata or the bunkai at all, when you would need to do is pick up Judo or Bjj.

That's disingenuous to be honest, you started the 'kata is rubbish' stuff long before anyone commented on your karate training. You have brought the subject up several times on several threads, about how kata is useless etc. It's your particular bête noir we get that but don't blame us for that. Live with it or give it up.

You assume training in BJJ and Judo is easy to find, clearly you don't live in the country where finding any martial arts is difficult as is decent transport anywhere. You must also be relatively young, I'm not I started training in karate in the 70s, no BJJ around in the UK then. There was Judo but not where I lived but I found Wado Ryu which contains what I want, what I need and I enjoy training. In the last couple of years our Wado club closed due to the council here shutting the gym down and selling it to turn into flats. Lack of anywhere to train meant the club moves hours away. Luckily I was also training with a work colleague who when he was posted in started a martial arts club.

Do I need to know kata? probably not, but I do and I continue to use kata and Bunkai because it satisfies what I need to know, I go to Iain Abernethy's seminars and come away inspired with techniques I've learnt. I enjoy kata, it works for me, I like understanding it, working at it. To be honest it's not for you to rubbish my training, it has immense value for those who train it. It makes for well rounded martial artists in my opinion.

How would you feel if we said that you could just as easily train wrestling so why bother with BJJ? That BJJ is just for competitions it has no value for anything else? You left karate because it wasn't for you, fine but don't pretend you left because you learnt all there was to know about karate. Everyone is different, you don't find value in kata others do, each to their own. You just want to prove that BJJ is better than anything, better than karate better than WC ( you posted a lot about that too, how it's rubbish in MMA comps) better than anything anyone could ever do. Instead you could just leave everyone alone and desist from posting up how you think everyone's training is really bad because "it doesn't work in MMA". You stay on your side and we'll stay on ours.

 

[Tez3]

Are you equating self defence with war?

You misunderstand again. PTSD can be caused by any traumatic event such as being attacked, raped, threatened, stalked etc.